A contradiction by Baha'allah regarding the finality of Mohammad (s).

[InvestigateTruth]

The word does mean final,

Your Arabic is not good if you think it means Final.

I've shown it even in Quran elsewhere.

This word Khaatam appears only in One verse of the Quran.
so, you did not show elsewhere. Elsewhere is another word made from the same root. But it is not that same word as Khaatam.

It can also mean ring, but here it's impossible to mean that.

Even the Muslim Scholars agree it mean, Signet Ring:


معنى الكلمة
"الخاتم من مادة "ختم" يطلق على ما يختم به آخر الرسائل أو الوثائق والكتب المهمة. ومن هنا وضعت كلمة "الخاتم" على ما يلبس في الاصابع، لأنَّ فص الخواتم كان ينقش عليه اسم أو رسم ويستعمل لختم الرسائل في الزمن السابق، وكان كل ختم لشخص معين. فكان يعتبر ختم الكتاب أو الوثيقة دليلا على اختتامهما وانتهائهما. فمعنى الخاتم هو الوسيلة التي تختم بها الرسائل والوثائق وليس ذلك الذي يُلبس في اليد وإن أطلق عليه ذلك فلأجل أنّ كونه يستعمل في ختم الرسائل والكتب

الخاتمية - ويكيبيديا

ar.wikipedia.org

Let me know if you need me to translate it.

It is basically saying Khaatam means Stamp or Ring. They Stamp letters with it.

It does not say it means Final. It is interpreted as Last, because according to them, they only stamp a letter at End of it.

As for proving, if it's proving to you, you are pretty stubborn and make clear things obtuse. But for others, they can clearly see the falsehood of your religion.

Well, when you believe Allah literally Split the moon, or Jesus and Muhammad literally and physically resurrected the dead, and you believe there are Jinns and literally Angels who go to Sky and come here, what else can I expect.

By the way, do you also, believe Jesus physically was raised to sky? What about Muhammad traveling to the Holy Land, flyng with a donkey?

 

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This word Khaatam appears only in One verse of the Quran.
so, you did not show elsewhere. Elsewhere is another word made from the same root. But it is not that same word as Khaatam.

I did show else where and even explained to you the kasra doesn't change it being the same word, same way "face" with a kasra or fatha still is the same word in the Wudoo verse.

Well, when you believe Allah literally Split the moon, or Jesus and Muhammad literally and physically resurrected the dead, and you believe there are Jinns and literally Angels who go to Sky and come here, what else can I expect.

If I didn't believe in these things, I would just do away with the Quran. I would not think God is a deceiver like you.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I did show else where and even explained to you the kasra doesn't change it being the same word, same way "face" with a kasra or fatha still is the same word in the Wudoo verse.

Nope. That is like saying عالَم Alam and Alim عالٍم mean the same, and both mean Scientist. Which is not correct. When you put a Fatha, it mean World. It does not mean.

There are people who pronounce Alam عالَم to mean a Scholar عالَم ديني but that is incorrect pronunciation.

So, according to you, it is possible to Translate

الحمد لله الرب العالَمين

Praise be to God, the Lord of Scientists.


When you argue that Khaatam means just like Khaatim, it is like you agree with the translation above.


You cannot invent a word to mean something. You have to see how Arabs use that word correctly. Meaning you have to see its real application in the Arabic Literature, poetry, and specially the classical Arabic spoken correcrly.


I yet, want to see, an example of the how the word Khaatam used in Real Arabic application. So, far I have see only it means Ring, Stamp, and signet Ring.

If I didn't believe in these things, I would just do away with the Quran. I would not think God is a deceiver like you.

God is not a deceiver. You use your imagination and your imagination deceives you. My honest comment.

It is a Test from God, if you use your imagination or not to interpret. It is called ظن

You only can use Quran itself to interpret itself, or Authentic Hadith.

Let me present an obvious one.

"Is he who was dead then We raised him to life and made for him a light by which he walks among the people, like him whose likeness is that of one in utter darkness whence he cannot come forth? Thus what they did was made fair seeming to the unbelievers." 6:122

This is a clear verse. It tells you what it means, when God rises a Dead to Life.
All Muslims agree, this verse, does not mean physically God resurrected anyone.
This verse is about Hamzah, uncle of the prophet, who was disbeliever and later became a believer. Thus the verse was revealed, that he was dead and raised to life.

Now, when it comes to Verses of Day of Resurrection, which says the same thing, the Muslim Scholars used their imagination and interpret it to mean physical Resurrection.

But Allah does not deceive, except those who are Transgrassors.

And people like, just follow blindly the interpretation that Muslims Scholars invented, instead of using Quran to interpret itself. Just like Khaatam unnabiyeen, that they insist they know its meaning.

 

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Nope.

It get's tiring explaining things to yo, so you saying "face" in Wudoo verse has two meanings, what is the difference between the fatha and kasra version?

God is not a deceiver. You use your imagination and your imagination deceives you

You went into great lengths to show God is a deceiver before, would even translate a word in Arabic to say it means that. You change stances all the time.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It get's tiring explaining things to yo, so you saying "face" in Wudoo verse has two meanings, what is the difference between the fatha and kasra version?




You went into great lengths to show God is a deceiver before, would even translate a word in Arabic to say it means that. You change stances all the time.

I found a good Hadith too, from Imam Sadigh, on verse 3:7. He explains:

هو الذي انزل عليك الكتاب منه آيات محكمات هن أم الكتاب واخر متشابهات الآية وانما هلك الناس في المتشابه لأنهم لم يقفوا على معناه ولم يعرفوا حقيقته فوضعوا له تأويلا من عند أنفسهم بآرائهم واستغنوا بذلك عن مسألة الأوصياء ونبذوا قول رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم وراء ظهورهم الحديث.

جامع أحاديث الشيعة - البروجردي، السيد حسين - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت

lib.eshia.ir

"It is He who revealed this Book to you. Some of its verses are clear and definite in meaning; they are the Book's core. Others are ambiguous.
Surely People shall be killed by the ambiguous versed, because certainly they are not aware of its meaning and do not recognize its Truth, and interpret it according to their own pesonal desire...."

See, it says, people will be killed by the Mutishabihat! Is this death, a physical death? Does the Mutishabihat physically kill people? Or, it means, it causes them to be killed Spiritually?

 

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Perish, doesn't mean killed. That's an odd translation.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Perish, doesn't mean killed. That's an odd translation.

Ok, perish. Now explain how people are perished by Mutishabihat?

What term Quran uses when it says, Ummahs were destroyed, or towns were destroyed?

وَكَم مِّن قَرۡیَةٍ أَهۡلَكۡنَـٰهَا فَجَاۤءَهَا بَأۡسُنَا بَیَـٰتًا أَوۡ هُمۡ قَاۤىِٕلُونَ

It used, exactly that same word.

Why could it not mean, they were destroyed by the Mutishabihat in their Book of their time?

Here is another Hadith that says a similar thing:

وعن عدة من أصحابنا، عن أحمد بن محمد بن خالد، عن أبيه عن محمد بن سنان، عن زيد الشحام قال: دخل قتادة بن دعامة على أبي جعفر (عليه السلام) فقال: يا قتادة أنت فقيه أهل البصرة؟ فقال: هكذا يزعمون، فقال أبو جعفر (عليه السلام): بلغني أنك تفسر القرآن؟ فقال له قتادة، نعم، فقال له أبو جعفر (عليه السلام) (1): فان كنت تفسره بعلم فأنت أنت وأنا أسألك - إلى أن قال أبو جعفر (عليه السلام): - ويحك يا قتادة! إن كنت إنما فسرت القرآن من تلقاء نفسك فقد هلكت وأهلكت، وإن كنت قد فسرته من الرجال، فقد هلكت وأهلكت، ويحك يا قتادة! إنما يعرف القرآن من خوطب به.


Certainly! Here is the translation of the passage you provided:

"And from a number of our companions, from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Khalid, from his father, from Muhammad ibn Sinan, from Zaid al-Shahham who said: Qatadah ibn Di'amah entered upon Abu Ja'far (peace be upon him) and said, 'O Qatadah, are you the jurist (faqih) of the people of Basrah?' He replied, 'That is what they claim.' Abu Ja'far (peace be upon him) then said, 'I have heard that you interpret the Quran?' Qatadah replied, 'Yes.' Abu Ja'far (peace be upon him) said to him, '(1): If you interpret it with knowledge, then you and I are asking you - until Abu Ja'far (peace be upon him) said: - 'Woe unto you, O Qatadah! If you interpret the Quran on your own accord, then you have perished and caused others to perish. And if you have interpreted it based on men, then you have perished and caused others to perish. Woe unto you, O Qatadah! The Quran is only known through the one it was revealed to (i.e. Muhammad)"


Explain how Qatadah perished by interpreting Quran on his own accord? Did he disappear?

 

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Ok, perish. Now explain how people are perished by Mutishabihat?

What term Quran uses when it says, Ummahs were destroyed, or towns were destroyed?

وَكَم مِّن قَرۡیَةٍ أَهۡلَكۡنَـٰهَا فَجَاۤءَهَا بَأۡسُنَا بَیَـٰتًا أَوۡ هُمۡ قَاۤىِٕلُونَ

It used, exactly that same word.

Why could it not mean, they were destroyed by the Mutishabihat in their Book of their time?

Here is another Hadith that says a similar thing:

وعن عدة من أصحابنا، عن أحمد بن محمد بن خالد، عن أبيه عن محمد بن سنان، عن زيد الشحام قال: دخل قتادة بن دعامة على أبي جعفر (عليه السلام) فقال: يا قتادة أنت فقيه أهل البصرة؟ فقال: هكذا يزعمون، فقال أبو جعفر (عليه السلام): بلغني أنك تفسر القرآن؟ فقال له قتادة، نعم، فقال له أبو جعفر (عليه السلام) (1): فان كنت تفسره بعلم فأنت أنت وأنا أسألك - إلى أن قال أبو جعفر (عليه السلام): - ويحك يا قتادة! إن كنت إنما فسرت القرآن من تلقاء نفسك فقد هلكت وأهلكت، وإن كنت قد فسرته من الرجال، فقد هلكت وأهلكت، ويحك يا قتادة! إنما يعرف القرآن من خوطب به.


Certainly! Here is the translation of the passage you provided:

"And from a number of our companions, from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Khalid, from his father, from Muhammad ibn Sinan, from Zaid al-Shahham who said: Qatadah ibn Di'amah entered upon Abu Ja'far (peace be upon him) and said, 'O Qatadah, are you the jurist (faqih) of the people of Basrah?' He replied, 'That is what they claim.' Abu Ja'far (peace be upon him) then said, 'I have heard that you interpret the Quran?' Qatadah replied, 'Yes.' Abu Ja'far (peace be upon him) said to him, '(1): If you interpret it with knowledge, then you and I are asking you - until Abu Ja'far (peace be upon him) said: - 'Woe unto you, O Qatadah! If you interpret the Quran on your own accord, then you have perished and caused others to perish. And if you have interpreted it based on men, then you have perished and caused others to perish. Woe unto you, O Qatadah! The Quran is only known through the one it was revealed to (i.e. Muhammad)"


Explain how Qatadah perished by interpreting Quran on his own accord? Did he disappear?

Salam

Words have more than one meaning. It's the context. Spiritual perishing is talked about in other verses as well. You have to tell what God means by context scoping.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam

Words have more than one meaning. It's the context.

This is a game that Muslims sects have been playing with each other for a thousand years. Each, in order to interpret the verses according to their own desire, have justified that, by saying each word have multiple meanings. Thus, this gave them the choice, to choose whatever meaning they like.
You have read the Hadith of the Prophet "My Ummah will be divided to 73 sects, all are in Hell, except one. That is the one that will be gathered in a gathering (جماعه)" ( which is the who become the new Ummah of the Mahdi.)

Spiritual perishing is talked about in other verses as well. You have to tell what God means by context scoping.

Again, There are clear verses (Muhkamaat) and Mutishabihat (metaphorical) verses.
God, with Muhkamaat verses, makes it clear the metaphorical meaning of the words. Then, He uses same word, in a Mutishabihat verse. Thus, the meaning is the same that God taught in the clear verses.
An example of this, is the Wings of Muhammad. If you understood the metaphorical meaning of the Wing, you would not be mislead by the Mutishabihat verse "Angels have two, three and four wings".
Another example is, the metaphorical meaning of "Dead" and "Alive" in the clear verses. If you understood it, then you would not get misleas by the Mutishabihat verse "On the Resurrection Day, the Dead shall be rised".

Here again, if you understood the metaphorical meaning of "هلاك", you would not be mislead with the verse "How many cities Allah had ruined". This spiritual "Death" or "Perishing" is by far greater punishment than physical destruction, for everyone dies anyways, but, what is too bad, is to spiritually die.

 

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Salam

The destruction of cities in a literal way, to me is obvious, by context scoping. There are many verses about literal destruction of cities in the past, this gives context to verses in the same chapter, which lead to that verse. If God meant spiritual death and living in one place, it doesn't mean he means the same thing everywhere else. That is unfair to speech.