A dialogue about Prophecy & doctrines between the WTS/JW & Seventh-day Adventist

[coconut theology]

A dialogue about Prophecy & doctrines between the WTS/JW & Seventh-day Adventist

I had asked @kjw47 if they would be kind enough to explain some of their material, and that I might ask some questions and have some dialogue about some specific prophecies and doctrines.

I had asked here - A huge problem with the JW religion:

"I have some questions if you have some time? Some are in regards the books I have received from the WTS/JW org members back in the country I came from (having since moved). One is "What does the Bible really teach?" and the other is "Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy".

Would you be willing to look at those materials with me? I would like for you to explain a few things in them in a bit more detail from scripture, and have a bit of dialogue about what I believe also."​

kjw47 said:

"Ask a question."​

So, here begins that dialogue,

kjw47, would you be able to explain the time prophecies (7 times in Daniel 4, the time, times and dividing of time in Daniel 7:25, the time, times and a half in Daniel 12:6, the 1,290 in Daniel 12:11, the 1,335 in Daniel 12:12-13, 70 Weeks, 7 weeks, 62 weeks, 1 week, midst of the week in Daniel 9, the 2,300 days in Daniel 8, as well as the 10 days in Revelation 2:10, the 42 months in Revelation 11:2, the 1,260 in Revelation 11:3, and the 3 1/2 days in Revelation 11:9,11, the 1,260 in Revelation 12:6, the time, times and half a time in Revelation 12:14, the 42 months in Revelation 13:5, the "hour" in Revelation 3:10, the "about the space of half an hour" in Revelation 8:1, the "five months" in Revelation 9,5,6,10, the "hour" in Revelation 17:12, the "hour" in Revelation 14:7, the "hour, and day, and month and year" in Revelation 9:13-15, and the 1000 years in Revelation 20:1-7) of Daniel and Revelation, and would you say that the following image is an accurate representation of the material found in those two books mentioned above? In other words, did I correctly understand what is taught therein?

WTS/JW timeline:

Source Link

I noticed that some of the time prophecies mentioned above were not listed in the two books. Are they listed elsewhere in WTS/JW material, and if so, can you provide that with citation for me, on the other time prophecies?

Also, have you seen the Seventh-day Adventist time prophecy charts?

Daniel and Revelation comparison - Daniel & the Revelation Compared - Psalms 77:13 - the 7 Branch Candlestick (PDF)

Age of the Earth (PDF)

The Redemption of the Creation – 7000 Years And The Everlasting Gospel (Powerpoint)

7000 Year Plan Of The Everlasting Gospel – Bible & Historical Quotations (PDF)

Revelation 12 – The Great Controversy (Powerpoint) (Sabbath School Study)

Source Link and Enlarged image here -
https://i0.wp.com/sdamaranathachurc...phecy-of-Daniel-8-Vs-14-And-Its-Sub-Parts.jpg

Source Link and Enlarged image here -
https://i1.wp.com/sdamaranathachurch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/AWHN-Bible-7000-Years.jpg

Source Link and Enlarged image here -
https://i2.wp.com/sdamaranathachurc...s/2019/03/AWHN-Bible-7-Feasts-Of-The-LORD.jpg

Source Link and Enlarged image here -
https://i0.wp.com/sdamaranathachurc...7-Vs-13-Thy-Way-O-God-Is-In-The-Sanctuary.jpg

Source Link and Enlarged image here -
https://i2.wp.com/sdamaranathachurch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Ezrachonology.jpg

Source Link and Enlarged image here -
https://i2.wp.com/sdamaranathachurch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/TwentySevenAD.jpg

I have some questions about what I presently understand about the WTS/JW prophecy timelines (as previously given), but I want to hear what you have to say first please, so that I am sure I understand. Thank you.

 

[Subduction Zone]

There are quite a few problems with Daniel. First it is a failed prophecy since there are quite a few different interpretations of it. None of the various sects can convincingly support their case compared to others. It fails because it is overly vague and people can play all sorts of games with the numbers involved to get the dates that they want. Second it probably was not even a prophecy at all . Daniel was written in the second century BC, not the date that so many literalists believe and is a mixture of various genres:

Book of Daniel - Wikipedia

"The Book of Daniel is a 2nd-century BC biblical apocalypse combining a prophecy of history with an eschatology (a portrayal of end times) which is both cosmic in scope and political in its focus.["

A "prophecy of history" means that it was history written as if it were a prophecy.

So why should others be impressed with your sects interpretation of Daniel?

 

[Brickjectivity]

@coconut theology

You would be best served by starting this same thread in 'Same Faith Debates'. That is how you can limit who may reply. Use the same title and start something like this there, and then staff will back you. Sometimes this is important, because the topics can be controversial and fill many pages of comments that don't help you understand the perspectives that interest you.

 

[kjw47]

A dialogue about Prophecy & doctrines between the WTS/JW & Seventh-day Adventist

I had asked @kjw47 if they would be kind enough to explain some of their material, and that I might ask some questions and have some dialogue about some specific prophecies and doctrines.

I had asked here - A huge problem with the JW religion:

"I have some questions if you have some time? Some are in regards the books I have received from the WTS/JW org members back in the country I came from (having since moved). One is "What does the Bible really teach?" and the other is "Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy".

Would you be willing to look at those materials with me? I would like for you to explain a few things in them in a bit more detail from scripture, and have a bit of dialogue about what I believe also."​

kjw47 said:

"Ask a question."​

So, here begins that dialogue,

kjw47, would you be able to explain the time prophecies (7 times in Daniel 4, the time, times and dividing of time in Daniel 7:25, the time, times and a half in Daniel 12:6, the 1,290 in Daniel 12:11, the 1,335 in Daniel 12:12-13, 70 Weeks, 7 weeks, 62 weeks, 1 week, midst of the week in Daniel 9, the 2,300 days in Daniel 8, as well as the 10 days in Revelation 2:10, the 42 months in Revelation 11:2, the 1,260 in Revelation 11:3, and the 3 1/2 days in Revelation 11:9,11, the 1,260 in Revelation 12:6, the time, times and half a time in Revelation 12:14, the 42 months in Revelation 13:5, the "hour" in Revelation 3:10, the "about the space of half an hour" in Revelation 8:1, the "five months" in Revelation 9,5,6,10, the "hour" in Revelation 17:12, the "hour" in Revelation 14:7, the "hour, and day, and month and year" in Revelation 9:13-15, and the 1000 years in Revelation 20:1-7) of Daniel and Revelation, and would you say that the following image is an accurate representation of the material found in those two books mentioned above? In other words, did I correctly understand what is taught therein?

WTS/JW timeline:

View attachment 36645

Source Link

I noticed that some of the time prophecies mentioned above were not listed in the two books. Are they listed elsewhere in WTS/JW material, and if so, can you provide that with citation for me, on the other time prophecies?

Also, have you seen the Seventh-day Adventist time prophecy charts?

Daniel and Revelation comparison - Daniel & the Revelation Compared - Psalms 77:13 - the 7 Branch Candlestick (PDF)

Age of the Earth (PDF)

The Redemption of the Creation – 7000 Years And The Everlasting Gospel (Powerpoint)

7000 Year Plan Of The Everlasting Gospel – Bible & Historical Quotations (PDF)

Revelation 12 – The Great Controversy (Powerpoint) (Sabbath School Study)

Source Link and Enlarged image here -
https://i0.wp.com/sdamaranathachurc...phecy-of-Daniel-8-Vs-14-And-Its-Sub-Parts.jpg

Source Link and Enlarged image here -
https://i1.wp.com/sdamaranathachurch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/AWHN-Bible-7000-Years.jpg

Source Link and Enlarged image here -
https://i2.wp.com/sdamaranathachurc...s/2019/03/AWHN-Bible-7-Feasts-Of-The-LORD.jpg

Source Link and Enlarged image here -
https://i0.wp.com/sdamaranathachurc...7-Vs-13-Thy-Way-O-God-Is-In-The-Sanctuary.jpg

Source Link and Enlarged image here -
https://i2.wp.com/sdamaranathachurch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Ezrachonology.jpg

Source Link and Enlarged image here -
https://i2.wp.com/sdamaranathachurch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/TwentySevenAD.jpg

I have some questions about what I presently understand about the WTS/JW prophecy timelines (as previously given), but I want to hear what you have to say first please, so that I am sure I understand. Thank you.

A question--not a book.

 

[sooda]

There are quite a few problems with Daniel. First it is a failed prophecy since there are quite a few different interpretations of it. None of the various sects can convincingly support their case compared to others. It fails because it is overly vague and people can play all sorts of games with the numbers involved to get the dates that they want. Second it probably was not even a prophecy at all . Daniel was written in the second century BC, not the date that so many literalists believe and is a mixture of various genres:

Book of Daniel - Wikipedia

"The Book of Daniel is a 2nd-century BC biblical apocalypse combining a prophecy of history with an eschatology (a portrayal of end times) which is both cosmic in scope and political in its focus.["

A "prophecy of history" means that it was history written as if it were a prophecy.

So why should others be impressed with your sects interpretation of Daniel?

Who is Ezekiel's Daniel? | Bible.org
https://bible.org/article/who-ezekiels-daniel

• Harold Dressler is well qualified to discuss the Dnil of the Ras Shamra texts since he wrote his doctoral dissertation on that very topic.5 He outlines four arguments which “have been advanced for denying that the Daniel of Ezekiel xiv and xxviii is to be identified with the Biblical Daniel” (p. 155).

 

[coconut theology]

A question--not a book.

In the "book" (given in answer to question), "What does the Bible really teach?" on page 52, the WTS/JW place the image of what they portray as Jesus on a torture stake (an upright pole) without a cross beam. My question is (2 parts), Why does the WTS/JW org portray the death of Jesus in such a fashion, and where is the scriptural, historical evidence or justification for such? (Please produce this, with links if possible, thank you.)

 

[Deeje]

In the "book" (given in answer to question), "What does the Bible really teach?" on page 52, the WTS/JW place the image of what they portray as Jesus on a torture stake (an upright pole) without a cross beam. My question is (2 parts), Why does the WTS/JW org portray the death of Jesus in such a fashion, and where is the scriptural, historical evidence or justification for such? (Please produce this, with links if possible, thank you.)

The cross is a pagan symbol used centuries before Jesus was even born. There is no "cross" in the Bible.

Here is our explanation....

Why Jesus Had to Die on a Stake. At the time Jehovah God gave his law to the Israelites, they obligated themselves to abide by its terms. (Ex 24:3) However, as descendants of sinner Adam, they were unable to do so perfectly. For this reason they came under the curse of the Law. To remove this special curse from them, Jesus had to be hanged on a stake like an accursed criminal. Concerning this the apostle Paul wrote: “All those who depend upon works of law are under a curse; for it is written: ‘Cursed is every one that does not continue in all the things written in the scroll of the Law in order to do them.’ . . . Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: ‘Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake.’”—Ga 3:10-13. (Excerpt)
Torture Stake — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

“did not the early Christians regard the cross as a symbol of Christianity?” No, they did not. It was not until about the middle of the third century of our Common Era that professed Christians began to use it as such. An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words by W. E. Vine states on page 256 of volume one: “By the middle of the 3rd century A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the cross of Christ.”

The Cross Is of Pagan Origin — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

We are not alone in bringing to people's attention that Jesus was put to death on a "srauros" which never involves two pieces of timber placed at any angle. It is simply an upright pole or post.
The cross has a very sordid history.

 

[coconut theology]

The cross is ...

If you please, I will need you to place the evidence in the thread, not merely a link to another place. You can use the link as the ending reference, but place the actual evidence or citation in thread please (just edit your original reply please). Do not fear I will not read any length of reply. I will read even the longest reply as long as it is in seriousness.

I will await a little while to see if kjw47 has anything to produce, before asking another question and responding.

 

[kjw47]

In the "book" (given in answer to question), "What does the Bible really teach?" on page 52, the WTS/JW place the image of what they portray as Jesus on a torture stake (an upright pole) without a cross beam. My question is (2 parts), Why does the WTS/JW org portray the death of Jesus in such a fashion, and where is the scriptural, historical evidence or justification for such? (Please produce this, with links if possible, thank you.)

When I was younger. The greek word STAUROS translated--an upright pole or stake. Now cross has been added to the translation of that word. So for the first 1700 years of trinity translation cross was not a description of Stauros. There is 0 evidence that Jesus died on a cross except a translated greek word found in trinity translation. Then when one considers the source of that translating( the religion that came out of Rome) cannot possibly agree with their assessment of that Greek word. They translated in many proven errors. Never fixed by a single branch off of her.
And I truly believe--The son of God( Jesus) who represents-LOVE,PEACE and UNITY would NEVER have a torture death device as the front of his religion. What one does find that in many FALSE religions they have a form of a cross.
So basically there isn't proof either way.

The same religions using a cross for Jesus, tell their followers that the Hebrew word-Elohim is proof Israel served a trinity. Yet the Hebrew translating says--Elohim= NEVER plural when used for the true living God.

 

[coconut theology]

The cross is a pagan symbol used centuries before Jesus was even born.

Fa'afetai lava, for responding as you have, for I do desire to dialogue about these things, in all candor, truthfulness and humility, and most importantly in love. I love truth. Therefore, if you will continue with me a bit as I respond and ask some further questions, I would appreciate your having taken that time to do so.

You have stated that the "cross is a pagan symbol used centuries before Jesus was even born.", and in a certain sense this is true, but if I may add, only half of the history. The "cross" was indeed used by the pagan nations, long before the nation of Rome existed, in such kingdoms as the Persians, Carthaginians, etc. This part is absolutely true. It (symbol of the 'cross', the 'T', or some derivative thereof, 't', 'x', 'y', etc) was also used as a pagan symbol, in the pagan nations, such as the Ankh in the Egyptian kingdom, and so on. This part is also very true. However, those things are not the whole picture, but merely a portion thereof.

The fullness of the remainder of history shows that the pagans actually borrowed that 'cross' symbol from God, and twisted it, or perverted it in their heathen rites and ceremonies and worship to their own ends. Satan, through his devices, sought to obscure the promise and actions of God. For instance, the same is seen in the borrowed 'sacrifices' of the pagans, for the first sacrifice was of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; Genesis 3:15,21, 4:2,4; Hebrews 11:4), and to this, the pagans twisted and distorted the meaning of (Leviticus 17:7, 18:3; Numbers 25:2, etc).

The "cross" existed as God's symbol, long before it was even paganized. Please allow me some room and time to demonstrate this, from scripture and history.

Before, doing that however, I want to address the other portion of the comment made, in that you have said that "The cross is a pagan symbol ..."; and in part, as stated above this is true, but now consider the very symbol taken up by the WTS/JW org of the "torture stake". This was also used by the pagan nations, even by Rome and others. What is the difference between this truth, and what you have said about the "cross"? The very "torture stake" is also seen within paganism, and “phallic” (male generative principle), under the Pole, May-pole, the Stella, Needle, Pyramid, Spike, Yule-Log, Obelisk, Fascii (with spear upright) and so on.

Perhaps they (WTS/JW org) have a “beam” in their eye on this, while they are attempting to remove the cross splinter [those who wrongly wear such things] in others. You ought to know, if you will carefully search, and so have a love of the truth, that by simply assaulting this symbol [the Cross,"T" or 't'], that that organization have left untouched many others which exist within the Watch Tower and Tract Society materials [Divine Plan of the Ages, New Creation, etc] and buildings, like the Winged Sun-disk of Thebes, Pyramids, the W-Fingered Hand, Keys, etc. All of pagan use, and esoteric meaning.

I do not say any of these things to be cruel, unkind, nor in a 'gotcha' manner. I am simply attempting to have the whole picture before us, and not merely a partial view. Do you personally acknowledge that what I have said is true, yes/no, please, that I may gauge our conversation rightly, and not assume?

 

[coconut theology]

There is no "cross" in the Bible.

If I may differ with you upon this point, and have the time and space to demonstrate otherwise? I would like to show you, that the "cross" exists from Genesis to Revelation, in type, prophecy, history. Would you allow me to demonstrate this? If so, I will do so, by replying again, separately, to keep the conversation in order, that it may be easily followed.

Here is our explanation....

Why Jesus Had to Die on a Stake. At the time Jehovah God gave his law to the Israelites, they obligated themselves to abide by its terms. (Ex 24:3) However, as descendants of sinner Adam, they were unable to do so perfectly. For this reason they came under the curse of the Law. To remove this special curse from them, Jesus had to be hanged on a stake like an accursed criminal. Concerning this the apostle Paul wrote: “All those who depend upon works of law are under a curse; for it is written: ‘Cursed is every one that does not continue in all the things written in the scroll of the Law in order to do them.’ . . . Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: ‘Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake.’”—Ga 3:10-13. (Excerpt)
Torture Stake — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

...

The Cross Is of Pagan Origin — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

I do want to thank you again, for taking the time to edit your response, so that I may have the source material in thread to see and work with. I do not mind following links to read, and do so, but I would like to know what specifically in those links I would need to respond to as needed.

The picture in "What does the Bible really teach?", page 52, is fairly close to the one you have provided above, even down to the detail of the single nail that pierces through two hands. In this, I have a further question, based upon a Bible text:

Joh_20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

Joh 20:25 TheG3588 otherG243 disciplesG3101 thereforeG3767 saidG3004 unto him,G846 We have seenG3708 theG3588 Lord.G2962 ButG1161 heG3588 saidG2036 unto them,G846 ExceptG3362 I shall seeG1492 inG1722 hisG846 handsG5495 theG3588 printG5179 of theG3588 nails,G2247 andG2532 putG906 myG3450 fingerG1147 intoG1519 theG3588 printG5179 of theG3588 nails,G2247 andG2532 thrustG906 myG3450 handG5495 intoG1519 hisG846 side,G4125 I will notG3364 believe.G4100

Joh 20:25 ελεγον ουν αυτω οι αλλοι μαθηται εωρακαμεν τον κυριον ο δε ειπεν αυτοις εαν μη ιδω εν ταις χερσιν αυτου τον τυπον των ηλων και βαλω τον δακτυλον μου εις τον τυπον των ηλων και βαλω την χειρα μου εις την πλευραν αυτου ου μη πιστευσω

Joh 20:25 ελεγονG3004 V-IAI-3P ουνG3767 CONJ αυτωG846 P-DSM οιG3588 T-NPM αλλοιG243 A-NPM μαθηταιG3101 N-NPM εωρακαμενG3708 V-RAI-1P-ATT τονG3588 T-ASM κυριονG2962 N-ASM οG3588 T-NSM δεG1161 CONJ ειπενG3004 V-2AAI-3S αυτοιςG846 P-DPM εανG1437 COND μηG3361 PRT-N ιδωG3708 V-2AAS-1S ενG1722 PREP ταιςG3588 T-DPF χερσινG5495 N-DPF αυτουG846 P-GSM τονG3588 T-ASM τυπονG5179 N-ASM τωνG3588 T-GPM ηλωνG2247 N-GPM καιG2532 CONJ βαλωG906 V-2AAS-1S τονG3588 T-ASM δακτυλονG1147 N-ASM μουG1473 P-1GS ειςG1519 PREP τονG3588 T-ASM τυπονG5179 N-ASM τωνG3588 T-GPM ηλωνG2247 N-GPM καιG2532 CONJ βαλωG906 V-2AAS-1S τηνG3588 T-ASF χειραG5495 N-ASF μουG1473 P-1GS ειςG1519 PREP τηνG3588 T-ASF πλευρανG4125 N-ASF αυτουG846 P-GSM ουG3756 PRT-N μηG3361 PRT-N πιστευσωG4100 V-FAI-1S​

The "N-GPM" of "ηλωνG2247" in both instances, is, from Robinson's Morphological Analysis codes, (N) Noun - (G) Genative, (P) Plural, (M) Masculine. This is even so in the WTS/JW org NWT Silver Sword Online edition, and KIT Online edition:

John 20:25 NWT - 25 So the other disciples were telling him: “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them: “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print* of the nails and stick my hand into his side,v I will never believe it.”w

John 20:25 KIT - 25 ἔλεγον οὖν αὐτῷ οἱ ἄλλοι μαθηταί Ἑωράκαμεν τὸν κύριον. ὁ δὲ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς ᾿Εὰν μὴ ἴδω ἐν ταῖς χερσὶν (hands) αὐτοῦ τὸν τύπον τῶν ἥλων (nails) καὶ βάλω τὸν δάκτυλόν μου εἰς τὸν τύπον τῶν ἥλων (nails) καὶ βάλω μου τὴν χεῖρα εἰς τὴν πλευρὰν αὐτοῦ, οὐ μὴ πιστεύσω.​

Thomas states, that Jesus was crucified in the "hands" (plural) with "nails" (plural) and not singular as shown in the WTS/JW org images. Yet, in the images of the "cross", Jesus is crucified with arms out stretched to the east and west with both his "hands" each pierced with a nail, making it plural, "nails". How does the WTS/JW org explain this discrepancy in their artwork, and that the image of the cross in others are more accurate in that detail?

I supposed it might be said that Jesus could have had his hands upright with a nail in each hand, but I have never seen a single WTS/JW org artwork portray the 'hanging' of Jesus in this manner, as they always have Jesus with hands 'crossed' over and not separate. For instance, in Pay Attention To Daniel's Prophecy, page 237, notice the 'crossed' hands, with 'single nail' through both, and this is replete in all the WTS/JW artwork that I am aware of:

Thus my question above. I do not ask facetiously, but with all candor, desiring explanation where possible. I am open to hearing about these things, and do not mind reading serious responses.

In the response, I notice that you cited the NWT version, wherein it translates the koine Greek of Galatians 3:13, "ξυλου" as "a stake", where as the KJB translates the same word as "a tree":

Gal 3:13 χριστος ημας εξηγορασεν εκ της καταρας του νομου γενομενος υπερ ημων καταρα γεγραπται γαρ επικαταρατος πας ο κρεμαμενος επι ξυλου

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:​

The KIT Online of Galatians 3:13 translates, "κρεμάμενος ἐπὶ ξύλου," as "the hanging self upon wood".

Interesting to note that the notation in the WTS/JW NWT of Galatians 3:13, it references Acts 5:30, and in that same translation, the notation for the exact same word "ξυλου", states, "a stake: Or “a tree.” The Greek word xyʹlon (lit., “wood”) is here used as a synonym for the Greek word stau·rosʹ (rendered “torture stake”) and describes the instrument of execution to which Jesus was nailed. In the Christian Greek Scriptures, Luke, Paul, and Peter used the word xyʹlon in this sense five times altogether. (Ac 5:30; 10:39; 13:29; Ga 3:13; 1Pe 2:24) In the Septuagint, xyʹlon is used at De 21:22, 23 to translate the corresponding Hebrew word ʽets (meaning “tree; wood; piece of wood”) in the sentence “and you have hung him on a stake.” ..." - Link

So, do you agree that the word is translatable as "tree", such as in the KJB?

 

[coconut theology]

... “did not the early Christians regard the cross as a symbol of Christianity?” No, they did not. It was not until about the middle of the third century of our Common Era that professed Christians began to use it as such. An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words by W. E. Vine states on page 256 of volume one: “By the middle of the 3rd century A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the cross of Christ.” ...

Thank you again for this reference of W E Vine (William Edwy Vine). I have access to this source, now combined with Nelsons, and have seen the full quotation (and another similar in the same source).

Are you aware that William Edwy Vine, borrowed many of his definitions (for his material, 1940) from the translations of the RV (1881; using the corrupted texts of Westcott & Hort, etc), from Joseph Henry Thayer (a Unitarian) and Richard Chenevix Trench (Anglican archbishop) and ASV (1901), and now has NIV (1967) editors, and that he denied the "blood" atonement of Jesus Christ?

Most modern lexicographical works are based upon the digital scans of the plethora of ancient works, and as such, John Lee states,

"[C]onsequently all the existing lexical entries in all our dictionaries are now obsolete and await reassessment in the light of the full evidence to be added ..." (Taylor, pp. 67,68)​

Vine's Expository Dictionary tells readers it follows Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon, which in turn informs readers that it followed Liddell-Scott's Greek-English Lexicon. This Liddell is the very father of Alice Liddell (the person modeled for Alice in Wonderland, by the pedophile Charles Dodgson (aka Lewis Carroll), who knew what Dodgson was doing with Alice, and allowed Dodgson to take provocative photographs of his own daughter, costumed as a child prostitute (see Hazardous Materials, page 278), among other things.

Westcott and Hort, among others, brought in the Codices Aleph (Sinaiticus) and B (Vaticanus), among others (such as A, Alexandrinus), and that even the NWT notations refer to these Codices as being the ones to follow. All of it is Catholic source materials.

So, while Vine is one source, other Lexicons, Dictionaries, give greater evidence that the "cross" (really the Cross of the scripture) existed before AD 201. For instance:

Justin Martyr (circa AD 100) stated in Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter XL (40):

"... That lamb which was commanded to be wholly roasted was a symbol of the suffering of the cross (σταυρός) which Christ would undergo. For the lamb, which is roasted, is roasted and dressed up in the form of the cross (σταυρός). For one spit is transfixed right through from the lower parts up to the head, and one across the back, to which are attached the legs of the lamb. ..."

"... Καὶ τὸ κελευσθὲν πρόβατον ἐκεῖνο ὀπτὸν ὅλον γίνεσθαι τοῦ πάθους τοῦ σταυροῦ δι' οὗ πάσχειν ἔμελλεν ὁ Χριστός, σύμβολον ἦν. Τὸ γὰρ ὀπτώμενον πρόβατον σχηματιζόμενον ὁμοίως τῷ σχήματι τοῦ σταυροῦ ὀπτᾶται· εἷς γὰρ ὄρθιος ὀβελίσκος διαπερονᾶται ἀπὸ τῶν κατωτάτω μερῶν μέχρι τῆς κεφαλῆς, καὶ εἷς πάλιν κατὰ τὸ μετάφρενον, ᾧ προσαρτῶνται καὶ αἱ χεῖρες τοῦ προβάτου ..." (edition by W. Trollope, Cambridge 1846).​

Even the AWAKE! magazine points this out:

"But do not writers early in the Common Era claim that Jesus died on a cross? For example, Justin Martyr (114-167 C.E.) described in this way what he believed to be the type of stake upon which Jesus died: "For the one beam is placed upright, from which the highest extremity is raised up into a horn, when the other beam is fitted on to it, and the ends appear on both sides as horns joined on to the one horn." This indicates that Justin himself believed that Jesus died on a cross. However, Justin was not inspired by God, as were the Bible writers." Awake! 1976 Nov 22 p.27​

Other early writers of that same era, also refer to the "cross" as an upright piece in tandem with a cross beam in either a "T" or "t" fashion, such as Lucian or 'Epistle of Barnabas'. More may be said on this as needful, for there are many such writers that refer to the cross piece, including the very sources that some WTS/JW have used in the past, such as De Cruce Liber Primus of Justus Lipsius (I will refer to this work later).

Therefore, I would like to ask, why does the WTS/JW org choose to refer to Vine, and not others which have earlier and clearer evidence, in greater detail?

There is abundance of more evidence since Vine borrowed his definitions, wouldn't it be better to consult the greater knowledge base and the more abundant finds in Greek and Hebrew Literature as well as the historical documents and fragments of history?

I understand that the word may apply to a "pallisade", or 'fence' (or even beams for a house), but please notice, that all such, have tying cross beams to hold them in place, being a much more sound and stable structure, for instance:

It should be noted that the Romans were not attempting to build a pallisade, fence or house when crucifying their enemies, and placed men in varying positions and in differing manners upon the xulon, stauros, as Justus Lipsius among others show (to be cited later).

We are not alone in bringing to people's attention that Jesus was put to death on a "srauros" which never involves two pieces of timber placed at any angle. It is simply an upright pole or post.

The cross has a very sordid history.

I assume by the statement that the WTS/JW org is "not alone" in picturing Jesus' death upon a mere upright pole, is referring to persons such as Vine? I know of a few others (Bullinger, etc), but they are in the vast minority of historical research, and quite outdated in regards the information available to day.

So, if I quote other lexicons , dictionaries, etc that disagree with Vine, that are more up to date and have greater evidence, would you accept those above Vine (etc) which are outdated?

What I am showing, is that there are conflicting sources, some outdated, some more modern. Yes? How then are we to determine which is the correct understanding, for I do not desire to be in error at any point, how about you? Should we let the Bible itself be the final authority in all matters of faith and practice and see what it has to say on the matter, over and above Vine, and even those I might cite in opposition?

 

[coconut theology]

When I was younger. The greek word STAUROS translated--an upright pole or stake.

Do you see that the koine Greek word stauros, has the very word for "T", "t" right in it, as "stauros"?

The Hebrew and koine Greek "Tau" is the letter and shape "T" or "t", and may even be a sideways "t", also like an "x". - Tau - Wikipedia and Taw - Wikipedia

Psa 119:169 TAU. Let my cry come near before thee, O LORD: give me understanding according to thy word.​

Paleo-Hebrew (tau) - wiki

Proto - Sinaic (tau) - wiki

Here is the pictographic Hebrew (value 400, Tav):

Now cross has been added to the translation of that word.

From what I understand of historical languages, as noted above, it was always present, even from the beginning in Genesis 1:1 the Aleph Tav. I would like to comment more on that in a bit.

So for the first 1700 years of trinity

The "trinity" (as defined by Trent, etc) is non-sequitur to our current topic. If we may please leave it out? I am not "trinitarian" (Trent), but believe what the Bible says about "Godhead" (which we can discuss in another thread, location, but please not this one).

translation cross was not a description of Stauros.

As shown, the very word itself carries the image of the "t" (Tau) in it. It's ancient pictographic form was that of a cross. I would like to go into more depth on why this is later.

There is 0 evidence that Jesus died on a cross

I will differ with you here, and I would like the opportunity to show you that evidence which is in my possession. Would you be willing to consider the evidence I have? It will come from the scripture (KJB) itself, and I would like to hear what you have to say about that evidence.

except a translated greek word found in trinity translation.

Again, the subject of "trinity" is non-sequitur to the present discussion. If we may please leave it aside for this thread (we can discuss what the Bible says about JEHOVAH Elohiym in another thread).

Then when one considers the source of that translating( the religion that came out of Rome)

Why then do you rely upon W E Vine, whose sources were Catholic (cited above)? Why does the NWT (which I have in my hand, possession) refer, in its notations (footnotes), to the Codex Aleph (Sinaiticus) and Codex B (Vaticanus), among others?

For instance in the the Revised 1970 NWT (I am holding), on page 1162, the New Testament, the Gospel of John, Chapter 7-8 (bottom of the page), it states (as confirmed likewise here - Link):

"a Manuscripts (aleph) B Sys omit verses 53 to chapter 8, verse 11 which read (with some variation in the various Greek texts and versions) as follows ..."​

The NWT (Rev. 1970) just referenced Codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus. In fact, the NWT, is largely based in these Codices, when compared to them, and in comparison to the KJV (GNT TR).

"For the Christian Greek Scriptures, the master Greek text of 1881 as prepared by Westcott and Hort was used primarily, but several other master texts were consulted as well as numerous early versions in other languages." - Link​

"... Those verses, found in some translations, are not in the oldest available Bible manuscripts. Comparison with other modern translations, such as The New English Bible and the Catholic Jerusalem Bible, shows that other translators have also recognized that the verses in question do not belong in the Bible. ..." - Link​

The "other master texts" they refer to are Sinaiticus and Vaticanus (both Catholic!, see Matthew 24:26 in a new light, for the one, Sinaiticus (in a desert), and Vaticanus (in a secret chamber of the Vatican vault)) which is what Westcott and Hort used clandestinely (in their own diaries)! You do not have to believe me, ask the WTS/JW org itself until you get straight answers.

It is even known that., "The layout resembles the 1901 edition of the American Standard Version." - Wiki

"... The Greek master text by the Cambridge University scholars B. F. Westcott and F. J. A. Hort (1881) was used as the basis for translating the New Testament into English.[23] The committee also referred to the Novum Testamentum Graece (18th edition, 1948) and to works by Jesuit scholars José M. Bover (1943),[23] and Augustinus Merk (1948).[23] ..." - Wiki​

Even the Latin Vulgate was consulted for the OT of the NWT.

Also, it is stated,

"As a basis for translating the Hebrew Scriptures, the text of Rudolf Kittel’s Biblia Hebraica, editions of 1951-1955, was used." - Link​

Do you know who Rudolph Kittel was, who his father was, and his (RK) theological positions were? Do you know what condition the mss that Kittel used is in and why it was rejected?

 

[coconut theology]

cannot possibly agree with their assessment of that Greek word. They translated in many proven errors.

I do not know of such errors. Yet, if we may focus upon the topic "cross", even though I am not opposed to having evidence given, so long as it is properly documented.

Never fixed by a single branch off of her.

All the evidence I have seen differs with your (or the WTS/JW org) conclusion. If you do not mind, I would like to show some of the evidence, and see what you think of it, ok?

And I truly believe--The son of God( Jesus) who represents-LOVE,PEACE and UNITY would NEVER have a torture death device as the front of his religion.

The logic is not quite correct here. That a symbol can be abused is no evidence that said symbol does not exist originally. That people wear the cross, etc, rather than "take up [their] cross daily" (Luke 9:23 KJB), is no evidence that the shape of the cross was not originally "t". Satan loves to take that which belongs to God and twist it to his own ends, destruction. Satan loves to make Christians have an appearance outwardly, but not inwardly. That people place crosses, or even crucifixes all over the place does not make them Christian. The Christian is a follower of the Lamb whithersoever he goeth (Revelation 14:4; Psalms 77:13).

What one does find that in many FALSE religions they have a form of a cross.

True, but again, that is not evidence against the original, and can be evidence of a truth twisted.

So basically there isn't proof either way.

Would you be willing to consider the evidence I have seen from the Bible? I ask in charity (1Corinthians 13).

The same religions using a cross for Jesus, tell their followers that the Hebrew word-Elohim is proof Israel served a trinity.

This is non-sequitur to the OP. We can discuss this elsewhere if necessary. I will not be addressing it here.

Yet the Hebrew translating says--Elohim= NEVER plural when used for the true living God.

Please see my response above, and finally I will say, I disagree with you, and would like the opportunity to share with you, but in another place, ok?

 

[coconut theology]

... There is no "cross" in the Bible. ...

So, out of all the above (and I pray it not too much), I pray that you will give me opportunity to share with you the very many places that the Cross exists in the Bible (KJB). I have about 12 or so really great examples. Can I share them with you, one at a time, and receive your feedback?

 

[Deeje]

You have stated that the "cross is a pagan symbol used centuries before Jesus was even born.", and in a certain sense this is true, but if I may add, only half of the history. The "cross" was indeed used by the pagan nations, long before the nation of Rome existed, in such kingdoms as the Persians, Carthaginians, etc. This part is absolutely true. It (symbol of the 'cross', the 'T', or some derivative thereof, 't', 'x', 'y', etc) was also used as a pagan symbol, in the pagan nations, such as the Ankh in the Egyptian kingdom, and so on. This part is also very true. However, those things are not the whole picture, but merely a portion thereof.

Please understand that I have spent many an hour with SDA's in the past and note their contribution to some of our early studies in the scriptures. It isn't our similarities, but our differences that are of interest.

The cross antedates Christianity by centuries and in the big picture, it doesn't really matter what instrument was used to execute the son of God. What matters is where the cross as a religious symbol came from, who wants to promote it, and whether it has itself become an idol?

The fullness of the remainder of history shows that the pagans actually borrowed that 'cross' symbol from God, and twisted it, or perverted it in their heathen rites and ceremonies and worship to their own ends. Satan, through his devices, sought to obscure the promise and actions of God.

That being the case, we should be doubly aware that his "angel of light" trick works to make what is illegitimate into something that appears to be legitimate.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15, in speaking of those who presented themselves as apostles of Christ, but who were nothing but convincing phonies.....he said...
"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works."

So the devil uses men whom he can manipulate to teach things that are not true. They appear to be the real McCoy, but their thinking has been guided by the wrong spirit. So how do we know the difference? This is where I believe God steps in and bears witness in our hearts by his spirit. No one comes to the son without an invitation from the Father. (John 6:44; 65)

For instance, the same is seen in the borrowed 'sacrifices' of the pagans, for the first sacrifice was of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; Genesis 3:15,22, 4:2,4; Hebrews 11:4), and to this, the pagans twisted and distorted the meaning of (Leviticus 17:7, 18:3; Numbers 25:2, etc).

Animal sacrifices go back to Adam's son, Abel....but not to his parents...do you know why?

Blood sacrifice was a necessary part of Israel's Laws to atone for sin. Why?
How was the "Lamb slain from the founding of the world"? What does that actually mean?

you have said that "The cross is a pagan symbol ..."; and in part, as stated above this is true, but now consider the very symbol taken up by the WTS/JW org of the "torture stake". This was also used by the pagan nations, even by Rome and others. What is the difference between this truth, and what you have said about the "cross"? The very "torture stake" is also seen within paganism, and “phallic” (male generative principle), under the Pole, May-pole, the Stella, Needle, Pyramid, Spike, Yule-Log, Obelisk, Fascii (with spear upright) and so on.

The difference is of course, that we do not use it as a symbol of our brotherhood or of Christianity at all. The cross is also inseparably linked to phallic worship in ancient times. The Egyptian ankh is a symbol of coitus with the cross picturing the male reproductive organ and the loop picturing the female. Like I said, its history is grubby...and it was grubby long before Constantine adopted it for the symbol of Catholicism "Christianity".

The symbol of the Watchtower is what is on our literature, picturing the role of the ancient watchmen stationed on the watchtower of the city's wall, in order to alert the citizens of anything approaching.

I do not say any of these things to be cruel, unkind, nor in a 'gotcha' manner. I am simply attempting to have the whole picture before us, and not merely a partial view. Do you personally acknowledge that what I have said is true, yes/no, please, that I may gauge our conversation rightly, and not assume?

I am used to debating these subjects with those who think they have it all down pat but in the final analysis, it isn't what people say that impresses God....it's what people do in accord with his teachings through Jesus Christ that matters. "Many" are going to be offering their excuses to Jesus at the judgment but he is not going to accept them. He wants people to be "DOING the will of the Father", not making excuses for why they don't.. (Matthew 7:21-23)

So, do you agree that the word is translatable as "tree", such as in the KJB?

I do...but what does it matter? If God's son was shot or hanged, would you make a symbol of a gun or a gallows and hang it round your neck or decorate your place of worship with it? Seriously...isn't that the more important issue?

I would like to ask, why does the WTS/JW org choose to refer to Vine, and not others which have earlier and clearer evidence, in greater detail?

There is abundance of more evidence since Vine borrowed his definitions, wouldn't it be better to consult the greater knowledge base and the more abundant finds in Greek and Hebrew Literature as well as the historical documents and fragments of history?

The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses are always striving to improve their understanding of scripture and any increased knowledge concerning the meaning of the ancient languages of the Bible, which is why we laugh when people quote stuff from 50 or 60 years ago. We revise our Bible for that reason. We have a belief in progressive revelation of truth, and some of what we formerly taught has been updated. We expect this as Proverbs 4:18 states. As to scholarship...? That is a matter of opinion. Scholars always disagree.

if I quote other lexicons , dictionaries, etc that disagree with Vine, that are more up to date and have greater evidence, would you accept those above Vine (etc) which are outdated?

My information is filtered through the ones whom I accept as the "Faithful and Discreet Slave" appointed by Jesus to "feed" his fellow slaves in this time of the end. (Matthew 24:45) This is not one man but a body of Christ's disciples who collectively decide what will be fed to the entire household. The identity of this "slave" was left as a question, because we have to identify 'him' and feed from what he is providing as "food at the proper time".
There are only two 'tables' at which to feed ourselves spiritually.....God's table, supplied by his appointed servant and the devil's. We choose based on who we believe. (1 Corinthians 10:21)

So, out of all the above (and I pray it not too much), I pray that you will give me opportunity to share with you the very many places that the Cross exists in the Bible (KJB). I have about 12 or so really great examples. Can I share them with you, one at a time, and receive your feedback?

And I hope that you see that the cross is the least of people's worries. If people have made an idol of it, they will answer to God who forbids such things. But the issues that determine life and the premise upon which they are founded are much more important IMO.

 

[coconut theology]

Please understand that I have spent many an hour with SDA's in the past ...

Ok Deeje. That is helpful to know. Thank you. (If you would like to discuss any other subject that doesn't fall under the present OP category, please let me know, and we can open a new thread and discuss there, ok?)

... and note their contribution to some of our early studies in the scriptures.

Are you referring back to the early movement, in the late 1800's?

... It isn't our similarities, but our differences that are of interest.

I agree with you here, and am willing to discuss those if you are, some, as related to the OP in this thread, and others not related to the OP in another, as you will, just let me know.

The cross antedates Christianity by centuries

I agree, and showed some of this already in the pictographics of Hebrew, as well as in the koine Greek (Tau).

... and in the big picture, it doesn't really matter what instrument was used to execute the son of God.

I will slightly disagree with you here, as God does nothing by chance, but has a plan and purpose for everything that God does, and even the instrument by which Jesus was 'hung' matters, as it relates to truth. If people say, "What does it matter?"

Here is what Jesus said:

John 17:17 KJB - Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

John 17:19 KJB - And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.​

For Error cannot ever sanctify.

Jesus Himself, also went about correcting error and misunderstanding, and I follow after Him.

Matthew 22:29 KJB - Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Mark 12:24 KJB - And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Mark 12:27 KJB - "... ye therefore do greatly err."​

etc.

Jesus is very concerned about right answers, as the Master Teacher, in the right attitude, spirit:

Luke 7:43 KJB - Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.

Luke 10:26-28 KJB - [26] He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? [27] And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. [28] And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Luke 20:21 KJB - And they asked him, saying, Master, we know that thou sayest and teachest rightly, neither acceptest thou the person of any, but teachest the way of God truly:

2 Timothy 2:15 KJB - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.​

The scriptures speak of the way in which Jesus was to be 'hung'.

Act 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.​

I want to come back to this in a moment and show how true it is, that even the way in which Jesus would suffer is recorded.

What matters is where the cross as a religious symbol came from ...

I basically agree here with you, and would like to show you (in a moment) that it came from JEHOVAH Elohiym, and is found in the scriptures.

... who wants to promote it ...

Two sides can promote a symbol, such as the "rainbow", and in [1] one instance it is God's symbol of everlasting Covenant of Justice and Mercy comingled in the character of God's light and Love, and [2] the propagandistic agenda of the LGBTQPxyz community use it also. Yet, whom borrowed from whom? That such symbol is distorted by others, does not mean that it's original intent and purpose was so distorted, right?

... and whether it has itself become an idol?

Yes, I agree with you here, in that the symbol can become an idol (and many have so made it), but it doesn't have to be that way, just as the rainbow, or other thing which was God's.

Like as Moses with the brasen serpent upon a 'pole', which later was idolized, but Hezekiah made sure that was stopped:

2Ki_18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.​

For instance, I understand the true nature of the symbol of God, and make it no idol, do not wear the "cross", nor hang it all over (in fact, I do not have a house to do so anyway), and most buildings for worship that I have been in do not have it plastered all over the place. Our present symbol is the following, as found in Revelation 14:6-12:

The Three (and yea, also fourth, Rev. 18) Angels messages, which are going into all the earth even now.

That being the case, we should be doubly aware that his "angel of light" trick works to make what is illegitimate into something that appears to be legitimate.

Yes, but that "angel of light" has to borrow from God in every single case. The only thing which is original with satan is "sin".

2 Corinthians 11:13-15, in speaking of those who presented themselves as apostles of Christ, but who were nothing but convincing phonies.....he said...
"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works."

I agree, that there are false ministers, and false signs, wonders, etc. Yet, knowing that, does not negate that there are the true ministers, the true signs and wonders and true symbols. Notice:

2Pe_2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.​

Thus Peter states by implication that there were true prophets among the people by using the word "also" when speaking about the "false". I know you would agree here.

So the devil uses men whom he can manipulate to teach things that are not true.

Agreed.

They appear to be the real McCoy, but their thinking has been guided by the wrong spirit.

Can be true. This is why the Holy Ghost/Spirit is needed, to "guide us into all truth" [John 16:13], and whether you believe that to be a Person or not, is for another thread.

So how do we know the difference?

Isaiah 8:20, among others:

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:​

Sanctuary:

Psa 77:13 Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?
​

etc.

This is where I believe God steps in and bears witness in our hearts by his spirit. No one comes to the son without an invitation from the Father. (John 6:44; 65)

I agree here. Yet, even here, the "spirit" needs to be tested by the word:

1Jn_4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.​

So, we need to test even that "spirit" which claims to be the Holy Spirit, by what is written, yes? For no marvel that even Satan masquerades as an holy spirit, but is the unclean spirit.

Animal sacrifices go back to Adam's son, Abel....but not to his parents...do you know why?

Disagree. The texts cited, Genesis 3:15,21; Revelation 13:8) show that Adam was the first to sacrifice a lamb, by which God clothed Adam/Eve with coats of skins. The sinner always had to slay the animal, though it was God which had to teach them. Adam/Eve then taught Cain and Abel, and later Seth, etc., to do so, just as Abraham taught Isaac and household (Genesis 18:19).

... Blood sacrifice was a necessary part of Israel's Laws to atone for sin.

Not just Israel, but from the very beginning:

Heb_9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.​

Why?

God later stated:

Gen_9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.​

Lev_17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.​

This is why the scriptures later say:

Act_20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.​

The same context, in vs 29-30 then shares about the false teachers you mentioned earlier that would come in and teach something contrary to this.

 

[coconut theology]

How was the "Lamb slain from the founding of the world"?

God took the lamb, and brought it before Adam/Eve and showed them how to slay it, in answer of God's promise of Genesis 3:15, as a symbol of covenant:

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.​

These "coats of skins" came from the lamb slain from the foundation of the world", which was a symbol of the covenant and promise of what Jesus would come to do, some 4,000 years (4 days with the Lord) later, as John the baptist points out:

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Joh 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!​

That which was sinless would stand in man's sinful stead. Jesus knew, in studying the Sanctuary pattern (Psalms 77:13) at the age of 12, on the day of the Passover, what his mission was from His Father:

Luk 2:41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.

Luk 2:42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.

Luk_2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?​

It was then, that Jesus, as a man, knew the path to walk, from the plan laid out before the foundation of the world was even made (John 17:24; Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:20, etc).

What does that actually mean?

It means what it says. For first came the natural slaying of a lamb (symbol, type), that later the spiritual Lamb (Jesus, reality, anti-type) would come and be slain:

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.​

Jesus always taught this way. He would use the natural things around in created nature to explain the spiritual laws and kingdom of His Father, such as "wheat/tares", "sheep/goats", "fish/nets/boats", etc. The prophecies are given in the same manner, such as in Daniel and Revelation.

The difference is of course, that we do not use it as a symbol of our brotherhood or of Christianity at all.

No one said you had to use it or wear it, but you ought not throw it away either as it is in the very teaching of God, as I will demonstrate in just a moment.

The cross is also inseparably linked to phallic worship in ancient times. The Egyptian ankh is a symbol of coitus with the cross picturing the male reproductive organ and the loop picturing the female. Like I said, its history is grubby...and it was grubby long before Constantine adopted it for the symbol of Catholicism "Christianity".

As stated, be that as it may (and the Ankh is not actually the "T" or "t", but a twisted version thereof), but even still, a twisted version of truth, does not negate the truth which existed before the perversion of truth. Again, see the example of the Rainbow above.

I think you are merely looking at the perversion and not that which was not perversion before as found in scripture.

The symbol of the Watchtower is what is on our literature

True, but there are other symbols in the older Watchtower material (such as during the times of C. T. Russell), and was the point I was making. For instance:

The Cross and Crown used to be on many articles of the Watchtower publications, and was even used as Jewelry, as a lapel pin or necklace:

I understand about 'new light', but want to make sure we understand these things.

... picturing the role of the ancient watchmen stationed on the watchtower of the city's wall, in order to alert the citizens of anything approaching.

I understand about the symbol, but even watchtowers are misused (such as in chess, etc) in paganism and witchcraft., see the wiccan religion and the "watchtowers" thereof - Watchtowers

I am used to debating these subjects with those who think they have it all down pat but in the final analysis, ...

Ok, that is helpful to know. I hope I am not offending you unnecessarily, and that our conversation is fruitful to the glory of God.

... it isn't what people say that impresses God. ...

In a certain sense true.

...it's what people do in accord with his teachings through Jesus Christ that matters.

I basically agree with you here.

"Many" are going to be offering their excuses to Jesus at the judgment but he is not going to accept them.

This is not actually true. There will be no opportunity to speak then, as all time for that is past, for God will open the book (Revelation 20:13), gaze upon it, and then upon all the finally impenitent, the lost, and instantly all their deeds will be brought to remembrance

Hab_2:20 But the LORD is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him.​

Then they will acknowledge what the Father said of the Son:

Isa_45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Rom_14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Php_2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;​

Yet, even so, the Judgment for the professed in the Son, is taking place now, as Revelation 14:6-12 shows, (for the dead first, since the time of Abel, Hebrews 9:27) and soon for the living (Revelation 3:10) before Jesus returns. Those who never profess are already condemned (John 3:18).

As it is written, the time to speak is before that event:

Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

Ecc 3:7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;​

Psa_31:18 Let the lying lips be put to silence; which speak grievous things proudly and contemptuously against the righteous.​

He wants people to be "DOING the will of the Father"

I agree, and the "will" of the Father, are the Ten Commandments:

Psa 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
​

This may be seen more in this thread here, please if you desire to continue on that subject, it might be better there - Kanye West's "Christian" - "Sunday Service" - Jesus is King Album, Chick Fil-A & the Real Lord's Day

Though, I do not mind a little of it here, as it does deal with prophecy, Revelation 12:17, 14:6-12; Daniel 7:25, etc.

 

[coconut theology]

, not making excuses for why they don't.. (Matthew 7:21-23)

I agree, for in verse 23, it speaks of "iniquity" (anomia, without or against the Law) which is ultimately "sin", which is "transgression of the Law" (Ten Commandments; 1 John 3:4). Therefore, I ask you, as a WTS/JW member, why do you transgress the 4th commandment, and teach people to not keep it (Matthew 5:19; Luke 16:17)?

You do not think that they make 'excuses' to not keep God's explicit will? I would like to hear from you on that.

I do...but what does it matter? If God's son was shot or hanged, would you make a symbol of a gun or a gallows and hang it round your neck or decorate your place of worship with it? Seriously...isn't that the more important issue?

Yes, but we are not talking about what is not true, not historical, but rather we are talking about what is true, what is historical. Jesus was not shot, nor hung by gallows. Jesus, as we both agree, was 'crucified'. Therefore, I am asking about the translation of "tree", as again, God teaches from the natural to the spiritual, and I would like to share more on this in a bit, about what it is important to also understand the word "tree".

The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses are always striving to improve their understanding of scripture ...

Noble.

... and any increased knowledge concerning the meaning of the ancient languages of the Bible, which is why we laugh when people quote stuff from 50 or 60 years ago.

It sounds like a bit of a double standard, and not to be offending unnecessarily, then why did you cite W E Vine (1940), which is based upon 1881 and 1901 works, of Westcott & Hort, Liddell & Scott, etc.

Wouldn't it be more appropriate to cite the more modern and up to date research that has the greater evidence, as I have done?

I would not laugh at old "stuff" (good KJB word), if it were still valid. I take into consideration all sources and place their value appropriately, in whether or not the information in them is still valid, or needs to be updated. For instance, I really like 1828 Webster's dictionary.

We revise our Bible for that reason.

I noticed that the NWT especially has gone through many 'revisions', and that even in Hebrews 1, things have changed since the 1970 revision that I have. Do you know what Hebrews 1 says in the 1970 Revision of the NWT that it no longer says in the modern silver sword?

We have a belief in progressive revelation of truth, and some of what we formerly taught has been updated.

I understand about present truth and greater light, but present truth and greater light cannot negate that which was gone before, unless it were to correct an previously held error.

We expect this as Proverbs 4:18 states.

I agree with Proverbs 4:18 KJB.

As to scholarship...? That is a matter of opinion. Scholars always disagree.

I agree, and was the whole point of why I wanted to show others besides W E Vine, and then brought us to the question as to what shall be the final authority, man or scripture? I would like to suggest it is scripture, the word of God (Isaiah 8:20, etc).

So, can we look now at what scripture says? I will give my first example of the Cross in scripture in the next reply.

My information is filtered through the ones whom I accept as the "Faithful and Discreet Slave" appointed by Jesus to "feed" his fellow slaves in this time of the end. (Matthew 24:45)

Yet the Bible says, that the counsel of men, unless gotten from scripture is of no avail:

Psa_118:9 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.
Psa_146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.​

So, what does the Bible say ought to be my counsellors?

Psa_119:24 Thy testimonies also are my delight and my counsellors.​

So even a counsel of godly men can be wrong, unless they are founded in the testimonies of God.

This is not one man but a body of Christ's disciples who collectively decide what will be fed to the entire household.

I understand about leadership and structural order, and that is really for another topic, which we may discuss as needful.

The identity of this "slave" was left as a question, because we have to identify 'him' and feed from what he is providing as "food at the proper time".

There are only two 'tables' at which to feed ourselves spiritually.....God's table, supplied by his appointed servant and the devil's. We choose based on who we believe. (1 Corinthians 10:21)

I agree, and thus the 'food' we are fed needs to be tested by the word of God, as it is written:

Job_12:11 Doth not the ear try words? and the mouth taste his meat?

Pro 23:1 When thou sittest to eat with a ruler, consider diligently what is before thee:
Pro 23:2 And put a knife to thy throat, if thou be a man given to appetite.
Pro 23:3 Be not desirous of his dainties: for they are deceitful meat.
Pro 23:4 Labour not to be rich: cease from thine own wisdom.​

That "knife" is to be the word of God, even for that which claims to be "present truth". Daniel is one such example in type.

And I hope that you see that the cross is the least of people's worries.

I understand what you mean, though in another aspect, the "cross" is the burden for everyone to understand, lest they be lost.

I am not saying that the symbol is everything, but I am speaking about what is the truth of the matter, that is all. For presently we have two opinions, between us, and we need to know which is correct, based upon scripture, that we may be as Jesus prayed, "one" mind/heart in truth.

If people have made an idol of it, they will answer to God who forbids such things.

I agree. That is not really the point of this thread. Do you think that there are JW members thatr have made an idol of a particular historical image of the instrument of Jesus torture?

But the issues that determine life and the premise upon which they are founded are much more important IMO.

I agree, but am still interested in the details also, that I do not think should be neglected.

Even an idol is "nothing" as Paul says, but rather what ought to interest us, is what are the Doctrines that are taught, and are they in harmony with Scripture/Christ Jesus, and that is what is important to us.

Can the symbol be a part of the Doctrine though? I would like to show that it can be, through my next post.

 

[coconut theology]

... There is no "cross" in the Bible. ...

I would like to present my first (of at least 12) examples of the "Cross" being in the scripture itself, as used by God (JEHOVAH Elohiym):

Let's see the "Cross" throughout all of the scripture, even as scripture says:

Act 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.​

Therefore, the texts tells us that there is even in specific detail the "how" Jesus would suffer. Let's see if the "Cross" exists in type, prophecy, etc., Ready? Here is the first one.

The Sanctuary of God, is "the way" which mankind was "bought" (Leviticus 25:51; 1 Peter 1:18-19) and to be "brought" (Leviticus 25:55; 1 Peter 3:18) back to perfection, as it is written:

Psa 77:13 Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?​

So, let's consider the Sanctuary that God gave to Moses, as patterned (Exodus 25; Hebrews 8-10) after the Heavenly true Tabernacle:

You can find these images here - Study Notes, Sabbath School & More - SDA Maranatha Multicultural Church in American Samoa

God specifically gave to Moses the placement of each of the articles of furniture of the Sanctuary.

[1] Altar of Burnt Offering – Jesus was pierced in the Feet, by a nail.

[2] Laver of Blood Water – Jesus was pierced in His Side, by a spear, out then came blood and water.

[3] Table of Shew Bread – Jesus was pierced in the Right Hand, by a nail.

[4] 7 Branch Golden Candlestick – Jesus was pierced in the Left Hand, by a nail.

[5] Altar of Incense – Jesus died of a Broken Heart, wounded by the sin/s of mankind.

[6] Ark of the Covenant – Jesus was pierced in the Head, by the Crown of Thorns He wore, for mankind transgressed His Law of Ten Commandments, and spit in His merciful face.
​

So the Sanctuary pattern, was it of Heaven or of men?