A Formal Proof that if Evil Exists then the Theists' God Does Not

[Skwim]

evil exists because:

a) God does not take away our free will and we choose to kill one another etc.etc.

Bunk!

b) theory of relativity - opposites define one another - good cannot be appreciated without evil.

So because god has this crying need to be appreciated he put humans on earth and saddled them with evil. Praise be to god.

Good and evil are relative terms, they each cease to exist without one another.

Double Bunk!

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Skwim;2806990]

Nah.

You have a will to disagree, and for me that has freedom, so disagree with freedom

Yeah, people ain't always so smart.

Well observed

Seems I remember something in the Bible where god says he created evil.
Yet millions of people pray that he does. Foolish souls, eh.

foolish Indeed

 

[idea]

My response is this. If God is omnipotent couldn't he create a world where appreciation just is. So you can appreciate something without a need to compare it to something 'worse'

I think He is all-powerful in that if it can be done, He can do it, however some things are impossible... can God make a rock sooooo big that He can't move it, or microwave a burrito sooo hot that He can't eat it? the question is non-sensible.

Can God make a square circle?... either it's a square, or it's a circle - it can't be both things at the same time...

can you gain experience without actually gaining experience? can you be happy without understanding what it is to be sad? can you appreciate something without seeing the other side of it? ... it's impossible to make a square circle.

impossible for someone to genuinely feel like they have accomplished something if they have not actually worked towards and accomplished something. It's impossible to give someone self-generated joy that comes from within, it's impossible to force someone with free will to be selfless, and selfless/loving doesn't exist without free will...

if it is possible God can do it, God is refining us without taking away our free will (which can seem impossible), He's allowing us the experiences we need to gain experience/wisdom/inner joy.

 

[idea]

So because god has this crying need to be appreciated he put humans on earth and saddled them with evil. Praise be to god.

Double Bunk!

I think you missed the point... o well. hard to communicate with someone who isn't really interested in seeing something else.

 

[9Westy9]

I think He is all-powerful in that if it can be done, He can do it, however some things are impossible... can God make a rock sooooo big that He can't move it, or microwave a burrito sooo hot that He can't eat it? the question is non-sensible.

Can God make a square circle?... either it's a square, or it's a circle - it can't be both things at the same time...

can you gain experience without actually gaining experience? can you be happy without understanding what it is to be sad? can you appreciate something without seeing the other side of it? ... it's impossible to make a square circle.

impossible for someone to genuinely feel like they have accomplished something if they have not actually worked towards and accomplished something. It's impossible to give someone self-generated joy that comes from within, it's impossible to force someone with free will to be selfless, and selfless/loving doesn't exist without free will...

if it is possible God can do it, God is refining us without taking away our free will (which can seem impossible), He's allowing us the experiences we need to gain experience/wisdom/inner joy.

Okay. but couldn't God just create a perfect world but give us an idea of evil. Then we have no evil and appreciation of the perfect world.

 

[McBell]

I think He is all-powerful in that if it can be done, He can do it, however some things are impossible... can God make a rock sooooo big that He can't move it, or microwave a burrito sooo hot that He can't eat it? the question is non-sensible.

So how do you decide what can and cannot be done?

 

[McBell]

Okay. but couldn't God just create a perfect world but give us an idea of evil. Then we have no evil and appreciation of the perfect world.

I suspect that he is saying that god CANNOT eliminate evil and that is why evil is here.

 

[idea]

Okay. but couldn't God just create a perfect world but give us an idea of evil. Then we have no evil and appreciation of the perfect world.

He tried that, in Eden

We believe it was a good thing they ate the fruit (metaphorically speaking) because without experience, they would have never known joy.



11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 5:11)

think about it, without the fall, there would be no real sacrifice, no real love... "love you enough to die for you" would not exist, love would be watered down / not real... all of it would not be real.


opposition in all things - theory of relativity...
11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first–born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.
12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.
13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.
14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.
15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.
16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.
(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 2:11 - 16)

 

[9Westy9]

I suspect that he is saying that god CANNOT eliminate evil and that is why evil is here.

Interesting notion. If that is the case then it'd need to be shown that God cannot eliminate evil

 

[idea]

of course though, being omnipotent he could eliminate the bleimishes

perfect doesn't mean without blemishes... it means to be complete.

 

[9Westy9]

He tried that, in Eden

We believe it was a good thing they ate the fruit (metaphorically speaking) because without experience, they would have never known joy.



11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 5:11)

think about it, without the fall, there would be no real sacrifice, no real love... "love you enough to die for you" would not exist, love would be watered down / not real... all of it would not be real.

Not quite because he didn't give them the idea of evil. Then they would have been able to appreciate the garden more.

 

[idea]

So how do you decide what can and cannot be done?

either you have two separate opposite relative ideas/things/beings... or all things are compound in one.... I think when you try to force everything into being the same thing (try to force a circle to be square, or experience to not mean actually having experience) you are trying to take away the relativity / diversity / opposition - and therefore you take away the definition/being/existence of everything... either there is diversity - a rock is not a flower - and you have all the different colors of the rainbow... or you force everything into one grey mass... trying to force a rock to be a flower destroys any point to existence I think... either there is opposition, or there is nothingness is what it comes down to...

 

[idea]

Not quite because he didn't give them the idea of evil. Then they would have been able to appreciate the garden more.

telling them "this would be wrong if you do it" if giving them the idea of evil. the idea wasn't enough though... there is a difference between something being "just an idea" vs. something actually being real. If it's just an idea that someone loves you, is it real? If they suggest the idea that they would die for you - but don't actually do it - then it is not real... the joy is not real, the happiness is not real, if it is all just based on ideas....

just an idea

 

[9Westy9]

telling them "this would be wrong if you do it" if giving them the idea of evil. the idea wasn't enough though... there is a difference between something being "just an idea" vs. something actually being real. If it's just an idea that someone loves you, is it real? If they suggest the idea that they would die for you - but don't actually do it - then it is not real... the joy is not real, the happiness is not real, if it is all just based on ideas....

just an idea

Example: If all that exists is a car moving at 30MpH in comparison to me (standing still) yet I have an idea of a car going 70MpH I wont appreciate this car's speed as much. That's the sort of thing I'm getting at. So If I live in a perfect world yet can imagine an imperfect world then I can fully appreciate the perfect world. Especially if the imperfect world is the complete opposite of the perfect world

 

[idea]

Example: If all that exists is a car moving at 30MpH in comparison to me (standing still) yet I have an idea of a car going 70MpH I wont appreciate this car's speed as much. That's the sort of thing I'm getting at. So If I live in a perfect world yet can imagine an imperfect world then I can fully appreciate the perfect world. Especially if the imperfect world is the complete opposite of the perfect world

imaging something isn't the same as experiencing it though.. imagining that you are married vs. actually being married, or imagining you can fly vs. actually flying. It's not real, unless it's real.

I think the pain of this life is temporary, just long enough that we understand - that it is real, and we don't have to imagine it. The pain is real, and the joy will be real too. at least that's how I see it.

it was fun typing with you!

 

[Skwim]

I think you missed the point... o well. hard to communicate with someone who isn't really interested in seeing something else.

What's so important about appreciating something that rises to the level of good? Say there was no evil or bad in the world, then what would exist is a continuum of desirability. Some things would obviously be more desirable than others, so a hierarchy of desirability would soon be established, and words reflecting the various levels of desirability would be created: Not Desirable to Extremely Desirable. No need for bad, badder, baddest, evil, eviler, evilest. And "good could be applied to any level(s) of desirability one wished. Good would exist without evil around to muck up life. In fact, wasn't this god's original plan anyway?

 

[9Westy9]

imaging something isn't the same as experiencing it though.. imagining that you are married vs. actually being married, or imagining you can fly vs. actually flying. It's not real, unless it's real.

I think the pain of this life is temporary, just long enough that we understand - that it is real, and we don't have to imagine it. The pain is real, and the joy will be real too. at least that's how I see it.

it was fun typing with you!

But how are experiences stored? In the brain. An omnipotent being could store memories of imperfection into his being so that they appreciate the perfect worl they live in

 

[Gharib]

It does if you try to call God "good".

Why would God create evil if he is wholly good?
This appears to be a contradiction.
A wholly good being would remain opposed to evil.
How do you justify this creation of evil?

by such a way of reasoning it would be correct of me to say that knives and guns are evil so we should destroy all knives and all guns. does either of you believe that my view is correct?

 

[idea]

What's so important about appreciating something that rises to the level of good? Say there was no evil or bad in the world, then what would exist is a continuum of desirability. Some things would obviously be more desirable than others, so a hierarchy of desirability would soon be established, and words reflecting the various levels of desirability would be created: Not Desirable to Extremely Desirable. No need for bad, badder, baddest, evil, eviler, evilest. And "good could be applied to any level(s) of desirability one wished. Good would exist without evil around to muck up life. In fact, wasn't this god's original plan anyway?

and a hangnail would be pure hell, a little cold would be unbearable, or an apple would be inedible... there would still be things we call "evil" comparatively, and because we didn't know any better, the little things would become a horror... but then the little things are a horror to many of us... perhaps things could be much, much worse for us - and we are getting the idea of good/evil without having to really experience the worst of what we could.

 

[idea]

But how are experiences stored? In the brain. An omnipotent being could store memories of imperfection into his being so that they appreciate the perfect worl they live in

perhaps this is why we have nightmares... an easier way to learn / gain memories.