A friendly debate regarding the merits of Christianity v that of Judaism in regards to salvation. (Anthony H Miller and Harel13).

[Anthony H Miller]

To those who have been following this one sided "debate", I apologize for my time away from the forum. Also i noticed an error in my misuse of the word weather in the my previous posts. The correct word should be whether as in; whichever one of the two, as opposed to the use of weather as in; atmospheric conditions. My apologies to those who caught that.

Regarding Christian baptism:

In Matthew 10:38-39, Jesus tells us that we must take up our cross. The understanding being that every one has a cross, but it is up to the individual to take it up. He tells us that in order for a man to find his life, he must loose it first. This loss of ones life is in reference to the symbolic crucifixion that takes place at baptism when the body of sin is destroyed as written in Romans 6:6. The found life is that of ones previously dead soul.
I cannot stress enough the importance of this basic Hebrew and Christian concept as taught in both testaments, the fact that the soul can and does die. The problem is that no one seems to be teaching that truth or even accepting it. Personally one needs to ask, why?

Regarding Elijah to come: To my Jewish brothers i would hope that you take seriously the words of Malachi the prophet, his words are relevant for today.
In chapter 4 verse 5, the Lord promises to send Elijah. The warning there is to embrace the words of this prophet when he comes or suffer the consequences of a curse.
Jesus was asked if John the baptist was Elijah. Jesus was claiming to be messiah and it was reasonable for the Jews of the day to ask that question, as they were obviously familiar with Malachi 4:5.

Luke 1: 17 the angel of the Lord tells Zacharias the priest that his son would be in the spirit of Elijah. He did not say this was Elijah in the flesh, only that the spirit of Elijah would be in John. See Matthew 11:14, Matthew 17:10-11,Mark 9:11-13.
This was the first advent of Messiah as the son of man.

All true Christians have a spiritual unction within; 1 John 2:21. As believers we have this desire to share or faith with others but don't necessarily know how to go about it. Some methods work and some don't. One sunny Sunday, myself and a few others had set up a 20x10 foot tent structure with the sides open to the public in the heart of our small city. We set up rows of chairs and a small pulpit. The girls cooked food and some brought deserts. This was for street people but i told them to cook like they were cooking for Jesus, (no leftovers or that kind of stuff).

As the service progressed, (no loud revival type stuff, no loud shouting, just simple preaching of the word), a young leather jacketed fellow came up and asked me if he could preach. I said, "by all means go right ahead."
I took the time to stand back a few feet from the tent to relax and observe. Subconsciously i began talking to the Spirit. I said "Jesus we didn't do anything, we just put up this tent, prepared some food and look, this place is packed!" To my surprise The Holy Spirit downloaded a scripture. It was the last sentence in Matthew 3:3. Prepare the way of the Lord, make His paths straight. At the same time He also gave me the meaning of that simple verse. I was so excited i went around to my fellow Christians saying; "Do you know what the duty of a Christian is? Do you know what the duty of a Christian is?"I will share this understanding.

As i said previously we have this desire to share the word but do not always know how to go about it. It is no leaving some bible tract here and there then running away. Or some stupid fake dollar bill on the sidewalk with a religious message or some condemning words like your going to hell, folks know what i mean.
It is not the job of believers to beat people over the head with a bible or try to cram the Holy Spirit into others. Our job is to simply prepare the way and make His path straight. If that is done correctly the Holy spirit will walk right into that open door. The open door being that of the heart. Those other methods i mentioned only turn people off. The door slams shut leaving a feeling of contempt towards those who do that, and it has negative repercussions that carry on for a long time.
There are a myriad of ways to accomplish our part like doing a kindness to or for someone, just use your God given imagination, but remember, It is not a Christians job to force that Holy Spirit into anyone. He walks in on His own accord all we do is prepare His way.

Some times we only get to plant a seed, but sometime later, perhaps many years down the road some brother or sister will come along and water that seed or place a little fertilizer, but it is God who makes it grow. Read 1 Corinthians chapter 3.

Elijah in spirit preceded Jesus the son of man in the flesh as the scripture said. Elijah to come in the flesh will be a different matter as he will precede Jesus the Son of God!
Jesus the Son of God will have a different name, Revelation 19:12. This will be a time of God's wrath but before that day Elijah will come.

Jews and Christians are both waiting for the coming of Messiah. Christians should understand that Elijah has implications for them as well as for Jews. So who is this Elijah to come?
Paul tells us in 1Thessalonians 4:18 the Lord will return to gather His people with the trump of God. In 1 Corinthians 15:52 he tells us that it will be at the last trump.

I want to point out a glaring error for those who study using a Scofield edition of the King James version of the scriptures.
Revelation 8:13 speaks of three woes by reason of the remaining three trumpets which have not yet sounded. To the right on the page Scofield references these three.
1 is Rev 9:12. 2 is Rev 11:14.
These references are correct and refer to trumpets 5and 6. . The third woe is clearly referring to the 7th trumpet. Rev 10:7 tells us that when the 7th angel sounds the mystery of God is finished!

His last reference to Rev 12:12 however is to an insignificant woe as pertaining to the trumpets. Revelation 12 goes into things past, present and future. Revelation does not read linearly as clearly shown in Rev 1:19. To interpret things that way is a mistake. The sounding of trumpet 7 is the end of salvation as relates to the accepting of Jesus the son of man as Messiah. Things change drastically after that 7th trumpet sounds. The next event after trumpet 7 is the arrival of Messiah the Son of God. When messiah Jesus son of man comes for His people He does not touch the earth, we simply meet Him in the air. 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

Trumpet 7 is the culmination of salvation as we know it, the next event after trumpet 7 where Messiah actually comes should be preceded first by the arrival of Elijah. That takes place in trumpet 6 or woe 2.
Trumpet 6 brings upheaval and a time of reckoning before it is all over regarding chances for salvation through Jesus. It is not pleasant. Revelation 1:3 brings the Lords two witnesses on the scene. Only two individuals from scripture have not died a physical death, that is Enoch and Elijah. Enoch has witnessed history from the time he was taken up until the present. Elijah has witnessed history from the time he was taken up until now.
They are the two olive trees from Zechariah chapter 4. One is Enoch the other is Elijah. They will return and accomplish their physical death as we all do. Hebrews 9:27. This will take place in that great city which is no longer called the Holy City.

Many so-called bible scholars reject ancient manuscripts and certain historical works when it does not fit their narrative, or the theology they represent. An example would be the works of the Jewish historian Josephus. Take a look at his account of the happenings in Jerusalem from 66Ad to 70Ad. You will find an accurate account of the situation beginning in book 5 chapter 1. As you read you might think you are reading from old testament Lamentations.
Another would be THE

 

[Anthony H Miller]

Sorry about the abrupt end of the previous post, i seem to have accidentally hit the wrong key and the post was prematurely sent.

Another would be "THE TESTAMENTS of the TWELVE PATRIARCHS." These were written around 107-137 B.C. The are the dying testaments of the sons of Israel. Any serious bible scholar should take them into account. They would have been well known by the Hebrew scholars of Jesus's day.

Because a manuscript did not make it's way into the bible as we know it today does not mean it is not legitimate. The last verse in the book of John tells us there is much more out there, we just have to sift through things. Keep in mind to always compare those things with what we know and accept as true scripture.

An interesting manuscript that measures up to that kind of scrutiny is the THE GOSPEL ACCORDING to NICODEMUS. In it he elaborates on much of what is found in the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. There in chapter 20 he tells of two individuals who have been residing in Paradise and who have not yet met their physical deaths. These two happen to be Enoch and Elisha the Tishbite. They relate the reason for their being there., read it.
Revelation 11:7-8 tells us who will kill them and where these two will experience their earthly deaths. Ironically it is the same place John the baptist and Jesus met theirs. The big question is who is that beast that is occupying that seat in unholy Jerusalem? Are these the first to go in the so-called rapture? Notice that trumpet 7 follows immediately after. Is this when true Christians as a whole experience the same? Notice the last verse in Rev11:14. What did Jesus say in Rev 22:12? Notice the fulfillment of that promise in Rev:11:18. When these two prophets begin their testimony it would behoove any spiritually thinking person to listen to what they have to say. This is Elijah the Jews look for at Passover. I believe Elijah is unique to Israel and Enoch is to the rest of us.

Revelation 11 warns God's people not to be milling around in the court of God's temple at this time. They should be in the temple at the alter worshiping God, otherwise they will be trampled under foot.
This presents a tribulation scenario where the first 3.5 years will be tribulation at the hands of man. The second 3.5 years will be tribulation at the hands of God.
This will be a serious time when persecutions will arise but God will keep those who stay close to Him safe see Rev 3:10. My next topic will be the bride of Christ.

 

[Anthony H Miller]

By not understanding that there is a physical Zion and a spiritual Zion can lead to confusion. God speaks in the spiritual which is in fact the true reality. Our physical world is not our true existence, Christians reside in the spiritual. I believe there are individuals who, though they are not necessarily christian do also reside in that spiritual realm.

Isaiah 64-66, speaks of a mystery. The earthly or temporal Zion is in ruins, the holy house is burned up. Then, out of Jacob, and out of Judah comes a seed. Paul in Galatians 3:13-16 confirms this seed as being Jesus the messiah.
The servants referenced in 65:13 and 66:5 are the first Christians, they are all Jewish, and they are called by another name, verse 65:15.
65:17-25 is in reference to a future time and a spiritual Zion.

66:6 speaks of the city and the temple in which 64:10-12 describe as ultimately coming to ruins. This city and temple (temporal Zion) gives birth to a man child, (Jesus the messiah). 66 is also in reference to the New Jerusalem. Zion to be reestablished through the hands of God.

Adhering to Isaiah 28:9-12: Precept upon precept; line upon line; here a little, and there a little, let's see what we can find.
I have noticed God does not spoon feed, He likes for us to search with desire. It is like picking blue berries in the wild.

In Ephesians 5 Paul is teaching regarding the importance of marriage. In verse 31-32, he alludes to the relationship of the church and Christ and calls it a great mystery; remember the time-line, the year is around A.D 60. John has not written Revelation, the Temple has not yet fallen. Temporal Jerusalem is still intact. Wars and rumors of war are brewing. Jewish Christians are being hunted down and persecuted by their fellow Jews.
As a new Christian i questioned everything. If there was a doctrine out there that did not make sense, i set it aside until i could confirm or deny it through the scriptures, both Hebrew OT and Greek NT.

One puzzling teaching regarding the church was that Christians were the bride of Christ. This did not make sense because they taught that as Christians we were also guests who were invited to the wedding and would take part in wedding feast.
My carnal mind reasoned; How can one be getting married and also be considered a guest who has only an invitation to the wedding. Either you are the one getting married or you are a guest, you cannot be both!

For i am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob, are not consumed, Malachi 3:6. The point is that God does not change, He does things the same way He did at the beginning.

If, as scripture tells us Jesus is the second (Adam 1 Corinthians 15:45), it invites the question; where did the first Adam get his wife? Where does the second Adam get his wife and why did the first Adam need a wife in the first place?
As we know, God saw that Adam needed a help mate, so He caused a deep sleep to fall over Adam. He took one of his ribs, and Adam said, "this is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh". God provided a wife for Adam taken from Adams own body.

It is the same for the second Adam (Christ). Yes it is true, we as Christians are the body of Christ 1 Corinthians 12:12-27, but just as it was for the first Adam, the second Adam also needs a help mate. As it was for Adam a certain rest is also spoken of in reference to Christ ( Hebrews 4:9-11),
remember, it is around 68 A.D., Revelation has not been written, the mystery remains.

In most cultures the wife is chosen by her husband, there some exceptions but this is usually the way it happens; remember Jacob and Rachel, (Genesis 29:17-18). Matthew 20:16, 22:14.

Yes, all men are called and some answer the call and become believers. Those that follow that calling and become help mates to Christ have that opportunity be become His chosen.

Revelation 21:9; Come hither, i will show thee the bride, the Lambs wife. The scripture goes on to tell us that the bride is actually the Holy Jerusalem. It is comprised of certain men. These men were chosen by Jesus himself,( John 13:18, 15:16-19. Ephesians 1:4, Acts 9:15.

So how is it that the bride of Christ is actually our spiritual Mother, the one who birthed all us born again Christians? Galatians 4:26: But Jerusalem which is above is free , which is the MOTHER of us all (Christians). This is the Holy City spoken of in revelation. The question then becomes how and when are these men giving birth, can a man give birth? Jeremiah 30:6.

Early in my Christian years i had a controversy with the Apostle Paul. I took very seriously the words of Jesus when he said in Matthew 23:9; And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father which is in heaven. This kinda puts the kibosh on certain denominations who like to be called by that title.
My controversy with Paul came from 1 Timothy 1:2, 2 Timothy 1:2, and Titus 1:4: I thought, "Why Paul are you calling them your sons, inferring that you are their spiritual father when Jesus told you never to do that!" I thought. if any apostle should know better it would be Paul.

I never brought the subject up to the Lord or anyone else for that matter. Out of respect and admiration for Paul, i put it on the back burner of my mind and left it there.
It was only recently that the magnitude of what Paul was actually saying struck me like a ton of bricks; Galatians 4:19; My little children, of whom i travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you.

It was not as their spiritual Father that Paul was writing to Timothy and Titus, he was speaking to them as their spiritual MOTHER, the bride of Christ! Your spiritual mother is the one who led you to Christ. The bride is arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints; Rev 19:7-8. The foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones.

1 Peter 2:2-5; As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word , that ye may grow thereby; If so that ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious, to whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God and precious, Ye also as living stones are built up a spiritual house , an holy priesthood,to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

When i first read the above reference to stones i thought of them as simple stones until i had a dream; I was in the driveway of a fellow i had witnessed to some years back. We were talking when i noticed three pieces of gold in my hand. As i observed them they turned to three quartz like crystals. I continued to study them and i could see inside they were effervescing, i knew the were alive. It was then i realized the living stones mentioned in the scriptures were in fact Gemstones.

I think of my Christian journey as my 40 years wandering in the wilderness. I am amazed at what can be found there. I am sure others have experienced like discoveries. By no means am i setting myself up as some all knowing spiritual fellow. I simply want to communicate what i have found to be true and to share it with others who might care as i do.
To my Jewish brother and sisters know that true Christians have a sincere and deep love for you. We long for the day when you are truly reconciled to your God and ours.
For those who might want a glimpse of what the Holy City, the true Zion looks like, you can view a you-tube video titled; "Testimony of heaven, inside the Holy City," an interview with Oden Hetrick.

Children of Zion

Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the Lord has comforted His people, and will have mercy on His afflicted. But Zion said, The Lord hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me. Can a women forget her suckling child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea they may forget, yet will i not forget thee. Behold i have graven thee on the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me. Thy children shall make haste; thy destroyers and they that made thee waste shall go forth of thee. Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As i live, saith the Lord, thou shalt surly clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee as a bride doeth. Isaiah 49:13-18.

 

[Jimmy]

Jewish people and Christians believe in an afterlife , just differently in how that’s achieved so it’s all good.

 

[Anthony H Miller]

Many in the Christian community speak of peace, but with a total misunderstanding of the true concept of the peace spoken of by Jesus.

"Think not that i am come to send peace on earth: I am come not to send peace but a sword". Matthew 10:34.

"Peace i leave with you, my peace i give unto you: not as the world giveth, give i unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid." John14:27.

"These things i have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace, In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33.

"Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:" Romans 2:9-10.
Note that this tribulation is coming from God. The true Christian will experience tribulation from the hands of man.

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:" Romans 5:1.

The point is that we are now at peace with God. The peace we are experiencing as Christians is that peace that exists between a man and his God. This is not the case for the one who is not reconciled to God.

"Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace; and that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby." Ephesians 2:15-16.

Because of sin, the enmity that was once between man and God has for the Christian, now become enmity between the Devil and the man of faith. The Christian's adversary is the Devil himself. 1 Peter 5:8.

If the Christian is in fact referred to spiritually as a women; Ephesians 5:23, then the enmity between this women and the serpent exists, being placed there by God in Genesis 3:15. Notice God said He will put this enmity between the women and the serpent, not that He had already; it was to be a future event.

As men and women of the faith, we Christians are at war. Our adversary takes on many forms but we recognize him when we see him.
The time when we are called upon to contend for the faith is always present. (Jude 3-4).

There is a certain vile fellow who more than fits the description given in Jude verse 4, his name is Tovia Singer. He calls himself a Rabbi but i would never give him the honor of being called by that privileged title.

It is not my way to go around naming names, but after listening to and following Mr Singer's videos and writings i will gladly take on this adversary. My first contact with Mr Singer was a happen chance phone conversation when he unexpectedly picked up the phone from his office in Jerusalem. I asked him the one most important question which is the question asked at the beginning of this debate. "Tovia, can the soul die?"

 

[RabbiO]

@Anthony H Miller -

It‘s not your way to go around naming names?

Really?

I’m not buying it.

Your attempt at character assassination is beyond contempt.

 

[Anthony H Miller]

Several seasons back I came across a you-tube video titled "A powerful Nashville debate; is Jesus the Jewish messiah?" The speakers were listed as Rabbi Tovia Singer and Christian professor R.L Solberg.
As i am always interested in the debate scene between Jews and Christians, my curiosity got the best of me and i clicked on it. I was especially interested in finding out what this so-called "Powerful Debate" might consist of.
After introductions i found R.L Solberg more interested in his own self adulation; not really there to seriously debate his opponent. Tovia Singer presented himself in a similar manner but seemed serious about coming out on top regarding this challenge.
As it turned out i found no substance coming from either men, and nothing to warrant the sensational title of "Powerful".

I did come away wanting to know more about Tovia Singer so i checked out his organization "Outreach Judaism".
An article proudly displayed on this site and written by Mr Singer titled "Why do Christians Become Enraged When Fellow Parishioners Choose to be Chosen?", got my attention. Just pull up that website and you can follow this commentary.

I discovered Mr Singer likes to use strong words and strong language to work on human emotions in an attempt to bring attention to what he is presenting. When he can't do that he resorts to mumbling in Hebrew as he did in a video when asked by a caller on a talk show called "TaNaK Talk" about Exodus 15:3.
I find Mr Singer can speak Hebrew well but he has difficulty understanding and accepting the "TRUTH" of the words written in that Holy Book.

The title of his article is curious as i do not recall any Christians, myself included becoming "Enraged" as Tovia presents us. On the contrary, we simply let folks go their way with the understanding that God is not an arm twister. He lets us make our own choices. We are also obligated to contend for the faith as i mentioned before.

Paragraph 1 uses strong words like "visceral reactions" to describe Christians, which i find somewhat amusing.
The 3rd paragraph calls the authors of the NT "dishonest." He accuses them of doing their work in a "nefarious manner," and calls them liers.
He brings up the doctrine of the "Trinity" which as i previously mentioned originated in the OT Hebrew scriptures. To not consider that every LIGHT and every FIRE must have a SOURCE shows ignorance on the part of Mr Singer. God is the source of all that POWER. King David and others knew these things. A simple look at a light bulb will confirm this understanding, all light, heat, and power must have a source God never left His throne!
Tovia speaks of LOVE in the fourth paragraph as though it does not exist in the Christian community. Has he not seen the outpouring of Love coming from Christians in support of Israel? This generation has loved and supported the Jews of Israel in a manner that cannot be denied, so who is the lier here?

Paragraph 5 speaks of countless other choices if one chooses to not believe in the God of the Christians. He states a Jew needs to let go of his previous understanding and take hold of another, and to do this with the knowledge that it is not Buddha. Where does the average Jew go?
Later i will offer a personal observation and commentary regarding a well know Jew who turned to Buddha, and offer my thoughts as to why he might have done that.
In paragraph 8 Tovia thinks he knows what only God can know, that is; "What fills the mind of a Christian". God knows not only what fills the Christian mind, but what fills their hearts as well. He also knows the minds and hearts of liers and deceivers.

Tovia refers to the Jewish Apostles as "odious villains," and verbalizes what he thinks a Christian might think or say. Personally, in my 46 years as a Christian i have never heard one of my Christian brothers or sisters come close to what he presents. On the contrary we tend to respect and edify any and all Jewish folks who might express a desire to know and understand truth.

Regarding paragraph 9; I would caution Tovia not to minimize hell and mock those who have a real understanding of the consequences for those who might find themselves in the horrid place.
To my Christian brothers i will caution you as well. One of the areas Jews and others have a problem with is that "Christian preaching," that all unbelievers, especially the Jews are going to hell. If you believe what Paul told you in Romans chapter 10 you would never say that, (read it all) but especially verses 6-8, take his words seriously, only God knows who will experience that place; it is not your call!

Paragraph 10; Tovia would be astounded as to how many Hebrew bibles have been worn out by non-Jews, those who have a passion for the word of God. They just don't go around bragging about it. In the quietness of their own homes they follow the advice Paul gave to Timothy, (Timothy 2:15).
Tovia mentions Isaiah 53. In these posts i have intentionally not brought that scripture up. Most Christians use Isaiah 53 to try to convince Jews to accept Jesus. I prefer to let the individual Jew discern that scripture for himself, and let the Holy Spirit speak to his heart. Not some bible pounding fellow who has not studied as he should, or some misguided Rabbi who thinks and teaches that this describes something other than Messiah Jesus.

I do not call the Hebrew scriptures the Jewish Bible as Tovia does. Jews do not have a monopoly on the word of God. Yes, they have the advantage over us as Paul said in Romans 3:2, because the oracles of God were committed to them. The word was disseminated through Moses and others before there ever was a Jew. I fully acknowledge the Jews have an important part to play in all of this, but it belongs to us all.

Because of his ignorance Tovia calls Christians slaves when we are in fact servants of righteousness, (Romans 6:18).
He mocks the cross dangling on their necklace, (personally i do not wear jewelry but i would not mock those who do). I would however remind all Christians that they, as Jesus did have their own personal cross to bear, (Matthew 16:24).

In paragraph 11, Tovia correctly states he views himself as being dead. How true this is, but i don't think Tovia is grasping the fact that according to the Hebrew scriptures his soul is the part of his being that is dead!

I say to you Tovia and any other so-called rabbi; How can you call yourself a rabbi and then blaspheme the very God you claim to represent???
Teaching contrary to Ezekiel chapter 18. Unless you keep the whole law your soul is dead, the Hebrew bible and the New testament Greek teach this same message. Do you not know you are in league with that same liar from the garden who told Eve the same thing?



In the last paragraph Tovia calls Christians "stupid" and the NT "scandalous". After reading this article i was motivated to contact Tovia, so i called his number not expecting for him to pick up; i was surprised when he did. I informed him that i was a Christian and I asked him about this article. He said it was not to be taken personal, and i responded that i did take it personal.
I asked him "The question," Tovia can the soul die? He said no the soul cannot die. I responded by calling him a lier and reminded him of Ezekiel 18. He had no real defense and tried to change the subject. I asked him another question, Why did the Jews of His day kill Jesus? He avoided this question as well and the conversation was going nowhere so finally he said it was late in Jerusalem and we hung up.

The reason i asked Tovia the question; "Why did the Jews of His day kill Jesus?" was because according to them, Jesus called God His Father, and in their eyes, that made Him equal with God: John 5:17-18. Then before Pilate, they called for His crucifixion because He made Himself the Son of God.
The Jews of that day who wanted Jesus dead also called God their Father; John 8:41. Jews of today, including Tovia do as well. So the question to Tovia is; If you, as the Jews of Jesus day considered a man worthy of crucifixion yet were guilty of doing the same, were they not also worthy of this same punishment ? What about you???

I responded to a website called "Ask the Rabbi"with this question } Rabbi, can the soul die? The response from [email protected] read like this:
Dear A H,
Thank you for contacting us. No, the soul is eternal. However it can have eternal spiritual punishment.
With blessings from Jerusalem,
Rabbi Yoni Miller
Aish.com
I would like to converse with Rabbi Miller regarding his response, especially his take on that eternal punishment part.

 

[Anthony H Miller]

Back to Tovia's article: There he expresses a desire on his part to draw Christians out from their faith. I assume he is referring to his fellow Jews who have somehow seen the light and have taken that path which leads away from the false teachings and deceptions perpetrated by men such as himself; I will comfort my fellow true believers, both Jews and non-Jews, by reminding them that this is impossible on Tovia's part.

John 10:27-30; My sheep hear my voice, and i know them, and they follow me: And i give them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them to me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Fathers hand. I and my Father are one.
A true Christian is one who believes in his heart. If Tovia has managed to coax some supposed Christian believers over to his side, it is because they were never Christians to begin with. Their faith was only in their minds.

Tovia has gained nothing but a way to gain wealth and pick their pockets. I won't lie and say so-called Christian sects don't do the same because they do. They are up to the same (to use one of Tovias favorite words) nefarious activities as he.

In Tovia's article he mentions Buddha, i will reprint what he said because it is important to the continuing discussion.

From his article: "Those who leave the Church must discover that they can worship the true God of Israel. If they let go of one understanding of God, and they know it isn't Buddha. It has to be the Father, the God of Israel.

I will address his false assertion that a Jew seeking God would know that it was not Buddha. I bring to the discussion a well known Jew who did just that, his name is Leonard Cohen. A song writer/composer best known for his song titled "Hallelujah".

The song itself has seen many versions done by many vocalists. I want to speak on the original words Leonard wrote and give my understanding as to why he wrote it. There are many writers and commentators who have expressed their own ideas as to why he wrote it and what he meant by it.
If you care to study the man and the song you will see that Leonard himself did not completely understand why he wrote it. I believe God was working in this gifted man to get a message out, not only to Leonard's fellow Jews but to all His people.

I ran across an article dated May 23, 2023 by JP Griser in the "Forward," a Jewish journal featuring Jewish interests. The title of Mr Griser's

 

[Anthony H Miller]

ooops! I accidentally posted my previous text prematurely. (continuing)

article was: How Jewish is Leonard Cohen's "Hallelujah?" The song is all over the place and shows the spiritual confusion present in the author.
To better grasp the discussion pull Grisar"s article. ([email protected]). My apologies, i misspelled Mr Grisar in my opening.

Grisar has done his homework , i found his article to be enlightening and informative, but i have to differ with his thought that Cohen was referring to King David. I mean no disrespect to Mr Grisar. Grisar wrote; "In the second stanza, the "you" appears to be David."

This obviously could not be in reference to David, as Leonard is acknowledging David as a fellow song writer/ composer in verse one.
"Now I've heard there was a secret chord, That David played and it please the Lord, but you don't really care for music, do ya?"

It is our nature when working on a project, whether professionally, or casually, that we tend to bounce our progress off our spouse or our closest confidant.
We don't necessarily want their approval, we may be just looking for an opinion or perhaps some input. Whether it is an architect working on a project, a song writer/composer, a preacher or rabbi working on a sermon, we all tend to do this; It is like a kid looking for approval from mom or dad.
It is great when that other person shares our same interests and can provide meaningful encouragement or input, but that is not usually the case.
That confidant if they care about the composer, might show feigned interest but will eventually tire. The composer or artisan usually gets the message and returns to his or her work feeling a little deflated.

I believe Cohen was simply bouncing his current work in progress off a person close to him. This person obviously did not share the same passion and love for music that Leonard had. I believe Leonard just simply wrote his thoughts regarding this person into the song. You can see else-ware in the song reference to others.
Overall, i believe he was trying to express his feelings in the song that he was caught in the same predicament King David and Samson found themselves in.
Overcome by lust, and the inability to, with a clear conscience sing the "Hallelujah" David was in a bind. He would know God would not accept praises and worship in his present condition, and it was made that clear through a prophet.

The God of Israel will not receive worship or praise from any man immersed in lust. David and Samson had to reconcile their transgression, and both paid a heavy price before God would receive them again. This was under old testament law. The Christian Law of Grace offers a way out and a promise to heal us out of these things.
In an innate desire to worship God, i believe Leonard turned to a religion he felt could accommodate his condition. Buddha and other false teachings provided a way to cope.
I can respect Leonard Cohen for his honesty as he, like David understood his predicament. He did not think he could fool God and sing the "Hallelujah", knowing he was overcome by lust. He embraced his Jewishness but not Judaism.
At issue was men like Tovia Singer who's teachings he obviously did not accept. If Leonard had turned to Messiah, the Adonai of the Hebrew scriptures by finding a true rabbi, one who could communicate the truth to him we might not have had the song. "God works in mysterious ways".

I believe i mentioned before that salvation is of the Jews, (John 4:22). For Christians who like to bash Jews for killing Jesus, let me ask you this.
Where would you be it they hadn't? Do we owe them a debt of gratitude for doing this? There is an irony here don't you think?

It works kinda like this: "All men are liars" Psalms 116:11, Romans 3:4. No liar is getting into spiritual Zion, Revelation 21:8. So if i acknowledge this and say "Yes, as a man i am a liar, then i am no longer a liar because i have told the truth.

On becoming a true Christian we are in God's eyes no longer men as once defined, we are in fact a new creation: 2 Corinthians 5:17; Therefore if any man be in Messiah, he is a new creation: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Leonard Cohen's song "Hallelujah" is obviously a song about "LUST", and his inability to deal with it. Lust has destroyed many men. The Harlot of Revelation is the pervasion of lust; Rev18:14. Lust can come in many forms, it is not only sexual, it can be lust for material things, lust for power and wealth, lust for recognition and on and on.
Please notice that once the harlot is taken down, and the temptations that prevented the "Hallelujah" removed; Revelation 19:1-6, we see the "Hallelujah" break free. One cannot freely sing the "Hallelujah" with a guilty conscience. This was Mr Cohen's issue.

Revelation speaks of two songs; Rev15:3. You will find the song of Moses in in Exodus 15:1-21. It is a lengthy song. The song of the Lamb can be found in the hearts of every true believer in Messiah Jesus. Christianity is the process of coming out of captivity. The Israelite journey out of Egypt was a shadow of the true exodus out of the spiritual Egypt Jesus referenced in Rev 11:8.

Later i will post three songs, one will be the "Hallelujah". One will be an invitation for all my Jewish brothers and sisters to find help their way out of that spiritual Egypt. The last will be the song present in every true Christians heart.

 

[Eddi]

This "debate" is hilariously one-sided

It is more like a monologue

 

[Anthony H Miller]

This first music video is a beautiful version of Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah by 16 year old Lucy Thomas. Lucy sings only the 1st and last verse. She has added a "NO" to her version in the middle. You can make what you want of it , but to me she is saying that the Hallelujah does not have to be cold and broken.

This second music video is by Lucy and her younger sister Martha. It is titled "When you believe". It comes from an animated movie from the late 1990s called "The Prince of Egypt". . Christianity is an invitation to flee from spiritual Egypt.. I would consider this a short version of the "Song of Moses" from the Hebrew scriptures.

The third music video is titled "The prayer." I would consider this our modern version of the song i referenced as the "Song of the Lamb". It speaks of the Law of Grace which has been offered free for the taking to all Jews and non-Jews alike.

Bonus video: