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A Fundamental problem with Fundamentalism

Pah

Uber all member
Individuality is a relatively recent idea, historically speaking. It seems not to have appeared anywhere on earth in any substantial way, except as an aspect of royalty, much before 4000 BCE. Among the Hebrews it seems to have become a powerful idea much later, making its way into Scripture in a clear form, as I have previously suggested, in the writings of Ezekiel. Prior to the rise of individualism, the tribe was thought of as the basic unit of life. A tribe was a corporate singularity. It was not a collection of individuals. One stood before God as a people, not as individuals. The people of the tribe were interrelated, interdependent, and mutually responsible. It was their destiny to thrive or to perish together. When evil was in their midst, the whole of the people suffered. When faithfulness marked their common life, the whole of the people were blessed.

Sin itself was conceived of corporately. The sins of the fathers "shall be visited upon the children to the third and fourth generations" proclaimed the commandments (Exod. 20:4-6). When Achan sinned at Ai, his whole family was destroyed and no one thought that to be unjust Joshua 7). Even the first Jewish messianic thought was corporate rather than individual. Through the descendants of Abraham all the nations of the earth would be blessed. Only later, in the postexilic period, did the messianic vocation of Israel come to be thought of as a vocation of the supreme Israelite. The servant passages from Second Isaiah could be interpreted either corporately or individually, but when Ezekiel wrote "the soul that sins shall die" (Ezek. 18:46), individualism had dawned as a dominant idea among the Hebrew people. It was destined to grow in importance, and it received the fullest biblical expression in the wisdom literature of the Hebrew people, especially in such biblical works as Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Song of Songs, and in the apocryphal books of Ecclesiasticus and the Wisdom of Solomon. In these works a radical individualism was assumed.

"Wisdom" in the Jewish tradition was defined as the ability to discern the pattern of God in the world and the ability to conform the individual self to that pattern. Wisdom for a person began with the acknowledgment of God as the primary reality of the cosmos. "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Provo 9:10). The wise men of Israel taught that those who seek wisdom conform to that wisdom and will be rewarded by God without qualification. There were no extenuating circumstances out of the past, no connecting antecedents, no web of relationships. Each person was a solitary individual who by seeking wisdom would be led to happiness. He or she would by wisdom discover God's plan and then, by an act of the will, would conform to it. To the degree that a person was successful, God's blessing would be upon that person. To the degree that one failed, God's curse would be pronounced.

from John Shellby Sprong.

The focus on the individual in relation to God, did continue in the New Testament and indeed, is the central issue.

The second great commandment is directed by Jesus for an individual to love his neighbors. The beatitudes were for individual people. Faith and/or works provided individual salvation . The atonement of the cross pardoned an individual’s sins and so on and so on.

The convent with a people, the tribes of Israel, is replaced with one that is between a individual and God through Christ. Christians do not have scriptural authority to declare we are a Christian nation. We are a nation of individuals that are, in the majority, Christian and are commanded to follow the teachings of Christ. We no longer are a tribe of Moses and should not act like one.



 

quick

Member
from John Shellby Sprong.

The focus on the individual in relation to God, did continue in the New Testament and indeed, is the central issue.

The second great commandment is directed by Jesus for an individual to love his neighbors. The beatitudes were for individual people. Faith and/or works provided individual salvation . The atonement of the cross pardoned an individual’s sins and so on and so on.

The convent with a people, the tribes of Israel, is replaced with one that is between a individual and God through Christ. Christians do not have scriptural authority to declare we are a Christian nation. We are a nation of individuals that are, in the majority, Christian and are commanded to follow the teachings of Christ. We no longer are a tribe of Moses and should not act like one.




When you look at the Bible as other than what it claims to be, you end up with these kinds of "practical", apostate messes. Looking at the culture in which the Bible was written can be very helpful, but when you do so only to criticize the Bible, you always miss the truth it seeks to give. If you study the Scripture as what one of its chief inspired writers, Paul, says it is (see below), then it all becomes clear--clear, that is, with the help of the Holy Spirit.

As you claim to be an atheist, you cannot get it, no matter how much you read in and about the Bible. However, your continued presence here-- writing about Christian topics, poking at Christians, quoting Scripture out of context, twisting the meaning of the Word--means the Spirit is surely talking to you, despite your doing your dead level best to muffle him as he whispers in your ear. I mean, if you were secure in your "no-faith", you would feel no need to post on this board. There is no atheistic evangelism, is there?

I will pray the Spirit will give you eyes to see and ears to hear.

2 Timothy 3:

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
 

Pah

Uber all member
Ah quick,

My only real concern is that fundamentalists wish to fashion my America in their image. It's wrong constitutionally and biblically. The division of tribe and individual is clear cut even in a literal fashion.

Perhaps the Holy Spirit is talking to me - it is know (isn't it?) that God uses various means to teach his followers his truth.. Perhaps it is his way of delivering a message that a literal interpretation is not the way to drive the truth of the Bible and to harken to the individual message that he speaks.

I seem to be following what is written in 2 Tim.
 

quick

Member
pah said:
Ah quick,

My only real concern is that fundamentalists wish to fashion my America in their image. It's wrong constitutionally and biblically. The division of tribe and individual is clear cut even in a literal fashion.

Perhaps the Holy Spirit is talking to me - it is know (isn't it?) that God uses various means to teach his followers his truth.. Perhaps it is his way of delivering a message that a literal interpretation is not the way to drive the truth of the Bible and to harken to the individual message that he speaks.

I seem to be following what is written in 2 Tim.

Everything that occurs is part of God's plan, so indeed, as is demonstrated many times in the Bible, God uses non-believers as part of his plan.

As far as our Constitution is concerned, it was written by men, so it does not rise to the level of authority of the Bible. The Constitution may be wrong, although I personally have a great love for it.

The culture in which we live, up until the last 30 years or so, by default obeyed and acknowledged Christian principles. Even those who broke the rules admitted the Christian rules were the correct ones. Today, this culture seeks to deny this truth, and we have sought to destroy the rules, not merely defy them on occasion.

God punishes nations that deny him. There is a price to be paid.
Job 23:

23
"He (29) makes the nations great, then destroys them;
He enlarges the nations, then leads them away.
24
"He (30) deprives of intelligence the chiefs of the earth's people
And makes them wander in a pathless waste.
 

Pah

Uber all member
quick said:
Everything that occurs is part of God's plan, so indeed, as is demonstrated many times in the Bible, God uses non-believers as part of his plan.

As far as our Constitution is concerned, it was written by men, so it does not rise to the level of authority of the Bible. The Constitution may be wrong, although I personally have a great love for it.

The culture in which we live, up until the last 30 years or so, by default obeyed and acknowledged Christian principles. Even those who broke the rules admitted the Christian rules were the correct ones. Today, this culture seeks to deny this truth, and we have sought to destroy the rules, not merely defy them on occasion.

God punishes nations that deny him. There is a price to be paid.
Job 23:

23
"He (29) makes the nations great, then destroys them;
He enlarges the nations, then leads them away.
24
"He (30) deprives of intelligence the chiefs of the earth's people
And makes them wander in a pathless waste.

I don't think any of this changes the command to honor the state for its worldly authority
.
I would disagree with you on the inception of rebellion against some forms, doctrines, creeds, and principles of Christianity. Your splintered Body of Christ is the prime example and it strikes to the core of your belief. I can not imagine that you would believe that the true Christianity appeared twice in the history of that movement; once, when Chist taught and then again, when your particular sect was established (or do you fail to distinguish between Christ and Christianity?). Christianity is the work of man - Christ is the work of God - or so you should believe.

And I think you belittle the involvement of man in creating and modifying the Bible. for there is no proof that the Bible is as God supposedly spoke or inspired it. (in fact, there is evidencef to the contrary)
 
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