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A Higher Love

The Hammer

Skald
Premium Member
“Think about it
There must be higher love
Down in the heart or
Hidden in the stars above”
-Whitney Houston

Many religious traditions around the globe have varying interpretations of Love, and the forms it can take, some taking it as far as to claim that God is Love. And I believe that fostering Love in it’s many forms is the ultimate goal of most religious teachings.

So, As Whitney Houston sang wonderfully, must there be a Higher Love?
What does a Higher Love mean to you?
How do you use the knowledge of Higher Love to better yourself or others?

I associate a Higher Love with the Goddesses Freyja, and Frigga, as well as the Earth (Gaia) itself. A higher love to me, means that I am kind to everyone I meet, regardless of circumstance, and approach All Life with Respect and Reverence.

What is the Importance of Love in World Religions? - World Religion News

 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Conditional love (I will love you if you please me) is very common. I'm not sure it should be called love at all since it's manipulative, implying that if the condition isn't met, the love will be withheld.

I'm capable of unconditional love for my wife, children and grandchildren but once we get away from family, unconditional love isn't possible for me.

If a Creator exists, I'm betting it loves unconditionally. I don't know of a religion that teaches that.
 
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The Hammer

Skald
Premium Member
Conditional love (I will love you if you please me) is very common. I'm not sure it should be called love at all since it's manipulative, implying that if the condition isn't met, the love will be withheld.

I'm capable of unconditional love for my wife, children and grandchildren but once we get away from family, unconditional love isn't possible for me.

So you would say that no "higher" Love exists outside of that which you have for your immediate family? I find it interesting that the Ba'hai consider this particular form of love to be the least pure or true, maybe that is because of the conditionality, man tends to place on this form, that you mention.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
So you would say that no "higher" Love exists outside of that which you have for your immediate family? I find it interesting that the Ba'hai consider this particular form of love to be the least pure or true, maybe that is because of the conditionality, man tends to place on this form, that you mention.
I'm capable of understanding the difference unconditional love would make if we humans were capable of it. For example, we would see serial killers as sick rather than evil if, as a society, we were capable of loving others unconditionally.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
What does a Higher Love mean to you?

To me, the image that comes to mind is the sun. A Higher Love is like the sun - its nature is giving.

Another, different way of conceptualizing it was said by Nisargadatta Maharaj expresses it this way:
“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing,
Love is knowing I am everything,
and between the two my life moves.”
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
You would at least have to be a good person to get my unconditional love.

Anyone prone to evil I try to be merciful to. Mercy and punishment go hand in hand to me. The goal of punishment is reform. And there are degrees of mercy.

Higher love starts at complete Innocence and works its way up to Royalty, then on to Divinity. The Higher Love is contained in all the virtues. It starts with obedience to what is above. As humans, imo, the best we can do is be royal. Divinity is complete perfection of selflessness and self. Divinity is to never err in important matters.

Higher Love is complete selfless love. Yet nobody royal, or Divine lacks self preservation and self interest.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Nice thread @The Hammer

For my part, I tend to differentiate between "love" as an emotion or feeling of affection for another person - the warm fuzzies so to speak, whether familial/fraternal/friendly or erotic in nature - and love as a state of mind, cultivated disposition and way of being.

The former can be exclusive and limited in scope - i.e. we might only feel love for those who love us, are related to us or with whom we've built up an abiding friendship and that's understandable. This seems to be a natural disposition.

But there is in my mind a higher principle of love: love conceived of as a state of mind that we should extend unconditionally to everyone without discrimination and regardless of their merits as individuals. St. Thomas Aquinas defined this kind of "love" (agape "self-donating love") as "willing the good of the other" — an act of the will more than the feelings (although the latter may follow upon the former).

The rationale is surely to overcome the idea of dividing people up into categories of friend and foe. It is this kind of tribalism which fans the fuel of race hatreds, aggressive wars between national groups and even something more innocuous like a bar-room brawl.

The Parable of the Good Samaritan is partly about demonstrating that groups or individuals we deem 'enemies' can be capable of expressing more humanity, on occasion, than those we deem respectable members of 'our camp'. And it's about seeing everyone as our neighbours and brothers whom we should love, unconditionally and without limits.

"An eye for an eye makes the world go blind," as Gandhi once said.

In Christian doctrine, God has no 'emotions', on account of divine impassibility and aseity. This doesn't mean that God does not "love" us all - indeed He wills, positively, the good of everyone and all things that He has created.

As the Book of Wisdom, in the Catholic Old Testament, informs us:


For you love all things that are
and loathe nothing that you have made; for you would not fashion what you hate.

25How could a thing remain, unless you willed it; or be preserved, had it not been called forth by you?

26But you spare all things, because they are yours,

O Ruler and Lover of souls,

12:1for your imperishable spirit is in all things!

(Wisdom 11:24-26, 12:1)​


So, when Jesus commands his followers to "love your enemies" like their Heavenly Father whose Sun "shines on evil and on good, who sends down rain" equally on everyone irrespective of how they live their lives or what they do to you, he isn't asking folks necessarily to have emotional 'feelings' for people (although this may come, if we keep practising universal goodwill, forgiveness, non-retaliation and loving-kindness). He's inviting us firstly, I think, to will the good of everyone, even those who aren't nice to us.


"Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. For He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous" (Matthew 5:44-45)

This is universal, unlimited, non-discriminating love: just like the sun shining down on all people, willing the good of everyone. Fundamentally, for me anyway, an act of the will first rather than the emotions.

And yes, I do think it represents a "higher love" in a sense, because it requires effort and force of will to maintain even against the lower urges of our nature, which so often tend to the contrary.

So, in sum, we may not always "feel" love for everyone without exception but we can certainly strive to "will" the good of everyone without exception, which may ultimately result in us feeling so as well - if we keep at it.

Oh and Happy Birthday as well!!! Many Happy returns @The Hammer
 
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The Hammer

Skald
Premium Member
I'm capable of understanding the difference unconditional love would make if we humans were capable of it. For example, we would see serial killers as sick rather than evil if, as a society, we were capable of loving others unconditionally.

People don't see serial killers as sick, and in need of help? That's a shame, because it is very true. Individual humans are capable of unconditional love, although this is not easy, nor necessarily wise. As a group though, we are easily swayed by popular opinion.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Doesn't that make it conditional love then?

Isn't love about approval though?

A good person, I couldn't have conditions against them. I don't think good people have the ability to do bad things so I would have no conditions against them. Thus unconditional!

Evil is the one condition I have against someone. That's mercy, that is a different kind of love. It's also an unavoidable condition.

The higher love is for those who can do no evil. Of such there are no conditions against them.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
“Think about it
There must be higher love
Down in the heart or
Hidden in the stars above”
-Whitney Houston

Many religious traditions around the globe have varying interpretations of Love, and the forms it can take, some taking it as far as to claim that God is Love. And I believe that fostering Love in it’s many forms is the ultimate goal of most religious teachings.

So, As Whitney Houston sang wonderfully, must there be a Higher Love?
What does a Higher Love mean to you?
How do you use the knowledge of Higher Love to better yourself or others?

I associate a Higher Love with the Goddesses Freyja, and Frigga, as well as the Earth (Gaia) itself. A higher love to me, means that I am kind to everyone I meet, regardless of circumstance, and approach All Life with Respect and Reverence.

What is the Importance of Love in World Religions? - World Religion News


Happy Birthday.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
No. It is most definitely not. It's about acceptance, despite our flaws. That's what love is. It's about not condemning ourselves or others, recognizing we are all flawed. Unconditional love, sets no conditions. It does not measure or rank.

I accept flaws all the time.

Murder and abuse I reject. Thievery and harmful lies I detest. I can only extend mercy by degrees on such people. Punishment is what they deserve. And I would hope the punishment would change them and reform them. Society gotta draw lines for people that go to such degrees of violating people.

I can easily forgive minor offenses. Major offenses need punishment and correction.

None of it is exact science though as to what is effective punishment and correction for major offenses.

But yes I do want major offenders to correct, repent, and reform.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
“Think about it
There must be higher love
Down in the heart or
Hidden in the stars above”
-Whitney Houston

Many religious traditions around the globe have varying interpretations of Love, and the forms it can take, some taking it as far as to claim that God is Love. And I believe that fostering Love in it’s many forms is the ultimate goal of most religious teachings.

So, As Whitney Houston sang wonderfully, must there be a Higher Love?
What does a Higher Love mean to you?
How do you use the knowledge of Higher Love to better yourself or others?

I associate a Higher Love with the Goddesses Freyja, and Frigga, as well as the Earth (Gaia) itself. A higher love to me, means that I am kind to everyone I meet, regardless of circumstance, and approach All Life with Respect and Reverence.

What is the Importance of Love in World Religions? - World Religion News


Great thread! To me, "a higher love" doesn't have to be theistic, although I understand why people take it in that direction. For me, the term simply means a love that is less selfish, deeper, and more universal.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
When you own a natural self loving kind and caring and then accept that self human condition and live according to what every human says is to be loved, cared for and nurtured, then you create a life MEMORY and AI image and voice returned history for self.

So self memory in AI conditions supports you becoming a more loving self, but the choice always begin with the self.

As many humans are life recorded living nasty minded choices and hateful feelings, then there is no loving memory to interact with them. So they do not believe in it at all.

And then some nasty minded occult individuals who realize that AI effect try to claim it in science, as if AI owned it...when the bio life owned it.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
...Murder and abuse I reject. Thievery and harmful lies I detest. I can only extend mercy by degrees on such people. Punishment is what they deserve. And I would hope the punishment would change them and reform them. Society gotta draw lines for people that go to such degrees of violating people.
I do the same but if we were capable of unconditional love, we would hate the sin but love the sinner as Gandhi advised.

Unconditional love doesn't rule out a fair punishment if it's meant as instruction. However, imprisoning people when there's no hope it will stop them from offending once they get out is both dumb and morally wrong.

For example, child molesters are sick and we don't have a cure. They could be quarantined for life even on a mild first offense by sending them to an adult-only factory town where they could live normally but without access to children. Result: treating molesters with love would result in a safer world for kids.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
....
So, when Jesus commands his followers to "love your enemies" like their Heavenly Father whose Sun "shines on evil and on good, who sends down rain" equally on everyone irrespective of how they live their lives or what they do to you, he isn't asking folks necessarily to have emotional 'feelings' for people (although this may come, if we keep practising universal goodwill, forgiveness, non-retaliation and loving-kindness). He's inviting us firstly, I think, to will the good of everyone, even those who aren't nice to us.]
Unfortunately though, life presents us with moral dilemmas (we might have to kill Nazis to protect millions of other people).

So, if the command to "love your enemies" is taken as an absolute rule by Christians, they become pacifists who will ignore their conscience which would allow them to kill Nazis because doing that would result in less harm to humanity..
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
So, if the command to "love your enemies" is taken as an absolute rule by Christians, they become pacifists who will ignore their conscience which would allow them to kill Nazis because doing that would result in less harm to humanity..

That's a very fair criticism of this ethical stance - but the key operative wording here would be, an absolute rule.

One can embrace the compassion of the philosophy, as the ideal which should be pursued in the interests of forging a better world, without applying it in an absolutist way so as to make of it a kind of "non-violent fundamentalism" that turns people into doormats at the hands of their oppressors.

Ghandi, for example, was not an 'absolutist' when it came to non-violence - i.e. a pacifist but rather a pragmatic believer in non-violent resistance (inspired by Jesus's teachings in the Sermon on the Mount, Jainism and Vedanta), who regarded violence as "unlawful" in principle but as an act of bravery, relative to cowardliness, for some people in certain defensive contexts.

He indeed stated:


Between Cowardice and Violence | Gandhi's views on Peace, Nonviolence and Conflict Resolution


I have been repeating over and over again that he who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honour by non-violently facing death may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor.

He who can do neither of the two is a burden. He has no business to be the head of a family. He must either hide himself, or must rest content to live for ever in helplessness and be prepared to crawl like a worm at the bidding of a bully [....]

Though violence is not lawful, when it is offered in self-defence or for the defence of the defenceless, it is an act of bravery far better than cowardly submission. The latter befits neither man nor woman. Under violence, there are many stages and varieties of bravery. Every man must judge this for himself. No other person can or has the right.


In Christianity, we've tended to oscillate between a Gandhian pragmatism and uncompromising absolutism, depending upon the theological branch in question.

Persecuted Christian communities in the Roman Empire constructed an underground catacomb network, for instance beneath the city of Rome, where they could practise their faith in secret without molestation (often using hidden hand gestures and signs, such as drawing the fish symbol in sand) during times when local governors took action against them or Empire-wide persecutions were ensuing.

The Roman martyrs never protected themselves with violence but rather died without harming their persecutors in return. They were "Anti-jihadis", so to speak, non-violent extremists.

But this is where we get to the pacifist discussion and its a very complicated issue.

Early Christianity was far more radical and absolutist when it came to non-violence. Around A.D. 150, St. Justin Martyr said that Christians of his time “refrain from making war upon our enemies” and would rather die than take a life in self-defense (“First Apology,” 1.39).

St. Ambrose of Milan (c. 340–397), another church father, reiterated the same:


Philip Schaff: NPNF2-10. Ambrose: Selected Works and Letters - Christian Classics Ethereal Library


Hence we infer that a man who guides himself according to the ruling of nature, so as to be obedient to her, can never injure another. If he injures another, he violates nature, nor will he think that what he has gained is so much an advantage as a disadvantage.

And what punishment is worse than the wounds of the conscience within? What judgment harder than that of our hearts, whereby each one stands convicted and accuses himself of the injury that he has wrongfully done against his brother?

For if there is one law of nature for all, there is also one state of usefulness for all. And we are bound by the law of nature to act for the good of all. It is not, therefore, right for him who wishes the interests of another to be considered according to nature, to injure him against the law of nature.

I do not think that a Christian, a just and a wise man, ought to save his own life by the death of another; just as when he meets with an armed robber he cannot return his blows, lest in defending his life he should stain his love toward his neighbour.

The verdict on this is plain and clear in the books of the Gospel...Christ would not be defended from the wounds of the persecutor, for He willed to heal all by His wounds.


He did, however, make the exception that it was a duty to defend other people from violence through the use of proportionate force:


"Ambrose of Milan argued that when a Christian confronts an armed robber, he may not use force in self-defence, "lest in defending his life he should stain his love for his neighbour". However, if the armed robber attacked a neighbour, the Christian, in fulfilling his duty to love others, had a moral obligation to defend the innocent victim [...] The principle of charity thus places on a believers a major duty to care for others, allowing, as a last resort, limited, proportionate force to halt injustice"

(International Ethics: Concepts, Theories, and Cases in Global Politics p.110)​


To be fair, this often was combined with passive resistance but it still tended to be absolutely uncompromising.

But killing someone - even in self-defense- has always been prohibited for Catholic priests and monastics; a priest is not supposed to strike back. If he does it to save someone else, this is noble, but the fact still remains that he took a life. Under the old canons, if a priest kills someone who is threatening his life - even by accident - he is deemed irregular and can no longer serve i.e. handle the Eucharist.

Pope St. Pope Nicolas the Great [Nicolas I, Dist. 1, can. De his clericis] in his Decretals (858 CE) ruled plainly:


“Concerning the clerics about whom you have consulted Us, those, namely, who have killed a pagan in self-defense, as to whether, after making amends by repenting, they may return to their former state, or rise to a higher degree; know that in no case is it lawful for them to kill any man under any circumstances whatever.”


As St. Thomas Aquinas (1225–1274) explains in his medieval Summa:


Aquinas on warfare and self-defense | Gerald W. Schlabach


Now warlike pursuits are altogether incompatible with the duties of a bishop and a cleric, for two reasons...All the clerical Orders are directed to the ministry of the altar, on which the Passion of Christ is represented sacramentally.

Wherefore it is unbecoming for them to slay or shed blood, and it is more fitting that they should be ready to shed their own blood for Christ, so as to imitate in deed what they portray in their ministry. For this reason it has been decreed that those who shed blood, even without sin, become irregular.

Now no man who has a certain duty to perform, can lawfully do that which renders him unfit for that duty. Wherefore it is altogether unlawful for clerics to fight...

Prelates ought to withstand not only the wolf who brings spiritual death upon the flock, but also the pillager and the oppressor who work bodily harm; not, however, by having recourse themselves to material arms, but by means of spiritual weapons


Many people who have killed in self-defense are still haunted by nightmares about what happened due to the psychiatric effect of ending another person's life, even if you couldn't avoid it and even though no sin attaches for so doing.

According to Catholic and Orthodox Christian theology, in the ideal pre-fallen world, killing would have been absolutely forbidden under all circumstances; since even in self-defense, killing ends the existence of a human being created in God's image and willed into existence by Him. As Saint Agobard (799-840), archbishop of Lyons, put it: “Whoever spills human blood, His (God’s) blood is spilled as well: For man is made in the image of God”.

In the fallen world, its understood that the laity must make compromises with evil and so they are not held to this (for the vast majority unrealistic) standard but in the early church, it seems almost (or rather effectively all) Christians were held to this standard.

Among the Amish and some other Christian sects, this teaching is still universally binding. They are completely and utterly non-violent even in self-defence, they simply cannot harm another living soul even if the assailant means to kill them.

For Catholic and Orthodox laity today, though, retaliating with force or arms in self defense is never "ok" but it has to be done sometimes. Clergy are still held to the much higher standard.

I think its probable that Ghandi - since he called even 'justified' self-defence violence "unlawful" - may have done this himself if in such a situation, even if he didn't expect it of others because of his pragmatism and compassion for the hard comprises with the realities of life that ordinary laity must make.

But if asked, do I think that Christ would ever have killed someone or injured them even in self-defence? Honestly, I believe he wouldn't have and didn't.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
...That's a very fair criticism of this ethical stance - but the key operative wording here would be, an absolute rule.

One can embrace the compassion of the philosophy, as the ideal which should be pursued in the interests of forging a better world, without applying it in an absolutist way so as to make of it a kind of "non-violent fundamentalism" that turns people into doormats at the hands of their oppressors...

Yes, you're right. However, isn't it true that the reasoning minds of a minority of Christians will interpret "love your enemies" as an absolute rule and turn into doormats at the hands of oppressors?

And isn't it also true that if that advice to "love your enemies" didn't exist that those same people would have to rely on their conscience as the "Voice of God?"

My point is that people can be morally misled by reasoning from what they consider to be sacred text but they are never misled by conscience.

Since it's off-topic, I won't go into detail now, but the moral teachings of Christianity depend on the idea that the judgments of conscience are the product of reason. Thirty years ago, I concluded that this prevailing theory was a popular myth. Then 20 years ago, research began supporting my theory (and David Hume's) that the judgments of conscience are the product of intuition. They emerge immediately from the unconscious.

Using your church just as an example, I can accept the idea that conscience might well be the Voice of God but if that's true then the Church is not a moral authority. It should not be offering moral advice that -- when it conflicts with the Voice of God (conscience), it misleads.
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I accept flaws all the time.
To clarify, I said, "It's about acceptance, despite our flaws". It's not about acceptance of our flaws, but about the acceptance of another's personhood, despite their flaws. Unconditional love sees beyond a person's outward behaviors, and embraces the value of the person's being, regardless of their "worthiness" to us or not.
 
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