A lot Of People Talk About Needing Evidence To Believe There’s A God

[Aupmanyav]

I consider the evidence of those of Vedic and other sources alleging clairvoyant insight into to things beyond the physical.

RigVeda is the lore of pre-historic herders and agriculturists. Just as in case of other scriptures, RigVedic beliefs too should be weighed against evidence. I do not propose any exception. Do you think I will because I am a Hindu?

 

[RestlessSoul]

And the implication of these miraculous laws is what? God?

The feeling of awe engendered when contemplating the majesty of the universe is, for me, akin to a spiritual experience. So, yeah, I feel closer to God when observing the Milky Way, when thinking about space and time, or when marvelling that the Universe gave rise to conscious beings capable of pondering it’s mysteries.

 

[Valjean]

The feeling of awe engendered when contemplating the majesty of the universe is, for me, akin to a spiritual experience. So, yeah, I feel closer to God when observing the Milky Way, when thinking about space and time, or when marvelling that the Universe gave rise to conscious beings capable of pondering it’s mysteries.

So these laws produce a high -- cool!

 

[RestlessSoul]

So these laws produce a high -- cool!

A heightened state of consciousness, yeah.

 

[Andrew Stephen]

Peace to all,

True, good information from all, and
True, Restless soul, "contemplating the majesty of the universe" is to me In the infallible logic of Creation becoming fulfilled eternal Love through His Passion becoming through faith and in One Breath, we, all mankind are created mortal and corrupt from the spirit through the flesh for the soul of the Being reborn as Baptized sanctified transformed immortal and incorruptible becoming reborn again through Penance, re-Sanctified Confirmed from the Will of Creation with Him and through the Living Sacrifice in atonement of sin through Confession and hearing the words of Absolution, forgiven in Penance and in Communion we are united as one in being together with the Father and The Son and with all mankind we become again glorified and transfigured in One Body of God.

Peace always,
Stephen Andrew

 

[F1fan]

The feeling of awe engendered when contemplating the majesty of the universe is, for me, akin to a spiritual experience. So, yeah, I feel closer to God when observing the Milky Way, when thinking about space and time, or when marvelling that the Universe gave rise to conscious beings capable of pondering it’s mysteries.

Do you feel awe when you learn about children being diagnosed with cancers and other fatal illnesses? Those are part of creation, too. Explain your feelings and experiences when confronted with the harsh realities in the universe.

 

[F1fan]

So these laws produce a high -- cool!

We humans do create expriences that result in hormones getting released into the blood, which reaches the reward center of the brain. This is why these kinds of expriences are sought time and time again. These are interpreted as an experience with God when really it's a chemical experience. Those pesky facts can ruin a good religious exprience, and the illsuions that they are built on.

 

[George-ananda]

But that's the point. The "evidence" is evident only to you. Discussing it's qualities, mechanisms, or intent with anyone else imparts no knowledge or understanding if the phenomenon under discussion is imperceptible to your interlocutors. How are they to fact-check it? Why would they accept it if they couldn't fact-check it?

My logical mind tells me things happen to people that no one can prove after the fact. Just ignoring what they say if it can't be fact-checked greatly impoverishes what we can consider in our understanding of reality.

Again, and again, if your only interest is science then carry on that way. In my judgment, the limitations of science are clear and obvious and I'm willing to consider what other wisdom traditions have to tell us. The key point becomes the existence of additional planes of nature not directly detectable by the physical senses and instruments that are the current toolbox of science.

Things that cannot be detected, or even generally experienced, are outside the research capacity of science. It's pointless to try to apply science to abstractions for which no perceptible, objective evidence exists.

Fine. And there it ends if your only interest is science.

My position is that science is great for understanding the physical plane. But I believe there is more than the physical plane in reality.

 

[George-ananda]

I agree with you, George. Personally, I value science and believe that it is essential and beneficial for learning about the physical world. However, I doubt that it will ever be able to explain anything metaphysical (deities, earthbound spirits, or anything else supernatural), just as I doubt that scientific research will ever be able to rationally explain or debunk the supernatural phenomena that I strongly believe occur in the physical world. Maybe science will catch on someday, but I doubt it. I say this because I believe that there are genuine supernatural phenomena that defy both scientific and religious explanations.

I still have hopes that science can 'catch-on' to this stuff, but that will require new tools that can extend beyond just the physical plane.

 

[George-ananda]

RigVeda is the lore of pre-historic herders and agriculturists. Just as in case of other scriptures, RigVedic beliefs too should be weighed against evidence. I do not propose any exception. Do you think I will because I am a Hindu?

No, you should require evidence. I am saying there is sufficient modern evidence for me to believe that the paranormal and spiritual do occur and I look to Vedic science and other traditions for understanding.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I still have hopes that science can 'catch-on' to this stuff, but that will require new tools that can extend beyond just the physical plane.

Yes, I think so too. I'm not sure if science will ever catch on, but it's encouraging to know that believing in the paranormal is more accepted now than it was in years past. I'm pleased and relieved that it's more widely accepted because I can discuss it more openly than I could in the past. There is even a National Paranormal Day. However, I am still cautious about how I discuss the paranormal and my experiences with it, and I will never seek praise, fame, or fortune for my abilities. I've never asked for money or sought fame and fortune in the seventeen years I've been actively using my mediumship to help others. I know that I have a gift that I'm personally responsible for using to help others, whether they are living or dead. I've never made any money from this, but I've spent a lot over the years on ghost-hunting equipment in order to document some of my interactions with spirits. I have also spent a lot of money on travel expenses over the years as well. This is my life's passion, and while I greatly enjoy it, I also take it seriously. It's very important to me.

Regarding the new tools that you mentioned in your post, in my opinion, as a seasoned paranormal investigator, there is some very impressive high-tech ghost-hunting equipment capable of accurately documenting paranormal activity in a well-known or suspected haunted location. I have quite a collection of my own. I keep up with the latest developments, and I know a few people who invent new and innovative ghost-hunting equipment. I've also helped them test their new equipment while I'm investigating a haunted location on my own or as part of another paranormal investigation. I think it's exciting.

 

[Alien826]

To be honest, I don't like it when genuine spirit mediums charge for a reading. I completely disagree with that. I'm also saddened and angered to learn about people who aren't genuine and deliberately exploit the bereaved for financial gain. To answer your question, yes, it has happened to me. I'm not sure how acquainted you are with my posts on this subject, so I'll provide a link to one, which also has several additional links to more related posts.

What’s after death?

Nothing imo. The only death where something happens is when the man that god chose as his incarnate dies imo. Then of course all the dead, since this man’s inception, rise with him once again along with a new earth. What’s your view beyond death? I have no opinion, since I have never died.

www.religiousforums.com

Thanks, that's very interesting.

Back when I did my investigation, 1970's England, I didn't have any significant "dead" people to attempt to contact, so it was just observing others. That's all changed of course, and maybe I might have better luck now. I would be interested in trying again, who would you recommend contacting? We can take this off line if you wish.

By the way, my sister "saw" and spoke to her husband shortly after his death. It happened in the middle of the night and it would be easy to write it off as a dream, but she was quite convinced it was real. His first words were "You know I can't stay", as if he had a limited time. Or maybe he wanted to tell her that he hadn't returned to life? It was just the one occurrence.

 

[McBell]

I still have hopes that science can 'catch-on' to this stuff, but that will require new tools that can extend beyond just the physical plane.

No idea what you mean "catch on"?

'Science' is aware there are things it can not "deal with", meaning that does not fall into the science spectrum.
So 'science' pretty much ignores it.

Just like a screw does not fall into the spectrum of a jack hammer.

I will be most curious to see the fall out if science ever gets the tools to measure all the proposed "metaphysical" stuffs.

 

[Alien826]

No idea what you mean "catch on"?

'Science' is aware there are things it can not "deal with", meaning that does not fall into the science spectrum.
So 'science' pretty much ignores it.

Just like a screw does not fall into the spectrum of a jack hammer.

I will be most curious to see the fall out if science ever gets the tools to measure all the proposed "metaphysical" stuffs.

On the other hand, there are perfectly good "tools' available now ... @Sgt. Pepper and others like her. It's word-of-mouth reporting of course, but what bothers me a little is that rejecting one occurrence of something "strange" is reasonable, what if there are hundreds, or thousands of similar reports? When does it get illogical to reject them all? I'm not saying believe them without investigation, but at least conclude there is something going on?

I'll plant my flag firmly and say that I expect that if these phenomena are shown to exist, they will be part of the natural world, not some "supernatural" thing.

Another thought is that maybe these people do really have some ability the rest of us don't have. A dog can detect cancer in a person. Yes, we know it's their amazing sense of smell, but until that was measured it would be easy to decide they had some "magic" ability.

 

[McBell]

On the other hand, there are perfectly good "tools' available now ... @Sgt. Pepper and others like her. It's word-of-mouth reporting of course, but what bothers me a little is that rejecting one occurrence of something "strange" is reasonable, what if there are hundreds, or thousands of similar reports? When does it get illogical to reject them all? I'm not saying believe them without investigation, but at least conclude there is something going on?

I'll plant my flag firmly and say that I expect that if these phenomena are shown to exist, they will be part of the natural world, not some "supernatural" thing.

Another thought is that maybe these people do really have some ability the rest of us don't have. A dog can detect cancer in a person. Yes, we know it's their amazing sense of smell, but until that was measured it would be easy to decide they had some "magic" ability.

And just how is science to test all these reports?
Again, it is something out of the current science spectrum
Until such time as that changes, science will pretty much ignore it

 

[SkepticThinker]

Peace to all,

To me in logic, the plan is to get the intelligence of Creation becoming infallible certainty becoming again the fulfilled eternal flesh and spirit of created mankind.

In Logic and through faith, Adam and Eve created choice from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The logic is in the creation on the greatest gift of Love itself. Eve gave up her mortal life to bring spirit and life to Adam. Adam and Eve knew the conditions and Adam's only choice now was to live alone forever or die with the gifts of spirit and life brought to him. He can choose to live alone without the love of Eve of to die with the Love of Eve. Love Created. To me in logic and through faith, the New Adam, the Person of the Holy Spirit is the Will of Creation conceived in the Person of Jesus, The Christ who resurrects eternal fulfilled Divine Love through the Power of The Holy Spirit. Eternity in Love fulfilled.

The logic of the Kingdom of The Divine Will is choice through Love Created by Adam and Eve and Love Fulfilled through the Body of the sanctified immortal and incorruptible Christ. We become again in union with all mankind united as one in being together with the Father and The Son glorified and transfigured into the image of the Creator God for The Father in One God.

Peace always,
Stephen Andrew

So, this thread is basically just you proselytizing?
And claiming logic where none seems to exist.

 

[Alien826]

And just how is science to test all these reports?
Again, it is something out of the current science spectrum
Until such time as that changes, science will pretty much ignore it

A medium relates something to someone that she says comes from a dead person. The bereaved person says it checks out for accuracy. Test very carefully to see if the medium is honest, that she hasn't researched the dead person, played clever tricks to get the bereaved to reveal information, didn't just have a lucky guess, has no financial interest in the interaction and so on. A better case would be where neither the medium nor the bereaved knows if the information is correct until some investigation is done. Repeat with different cases until some probability is established.

At some point you will have reason to conclude that something other than pure chance is happening (or it isn't, of course).

The next stage is to think about detecting what may be happening.

 

[Valjean]

Peace to all,

True, good information from all, and
True, Restless soul, "contemplating the majesty of the universe" is to me In the infallible logic of Creation becoming fulfilled eternal Love through His Passion becoming through faith and in One Breath, we, all mankind are created mortal and corrupt from the spirit through the flesh for the soul of the Being reborn as Baptized sanctified transformed immortal and incorruptible becoming reborn again through Penance, re-Sanctified Confirmed from the Will of Creation with Him and through the Living Sacrifice in atonement of sin through Confession and hearing the words of Absolution, forgiven in Penance and in Communion we are united as one in being together with the Father and The Son and with all mankind we become again glorified and transfigured in One Body of God.

Peace always,
Stephen Andrew

Preaching again? Please back up your claims.

Yes, the world is majestic and awesome, but awe is not evidence of an particular, objective Reality. It's not epistemically useful evidence.
If awe or religious ecstasy is your goal, fine; but if ontological truth is what your seeking, feelings will not help.
I believe many religious construct a fantastic mythology around these ecstatic fugues, embedding them in religious folklore. It's all very inspiring, very motivating and can create meaning and purpose in life, but it's not physics. It doesn't explain Reality or the mechanisms of the universe. It doesn't test its claims. Finally, its claims are not consistent. Unlike scientific findings, the religious myths engendered are all different, and often contradictory.

Religion and science need to stay in their lanes. Science does, for the most part, making no claims of purpose, value, meaning, propriety, or supernatural plans or intent. Religion, on the other hand, is constantly making claims about biology, geology, physics, &al; not with tested supporting evidence, but usually with ill-informed criticisms of scientific claims or methods.

 

[Andrew Stephen]

Peace to all,

In logic, finite disciplines of earth fail in comparison to "The Logic of The Kingdom of The Divine Will of Creation" as "What would Jesus do in all cases of fulfilled faith and morality in the Christ," shared as one in being, the Mind of God in the Flesh of All Mankind.

In the Abrahamic faiths, the spirit is the common denominator, that unites as one in being, and in some religions, the spirit is a force or a power. In Catholicism the Spirit is a person in being that combines, and is conceived in being through the Power with The Person of Jesus and God to deliver the mind of God, the infallible intelligence of the Person of The Holy Spirit as the intelligence, the eternal authority of all spirit and life in the flesh of all mankind as transformed immortal and incorruptible as The Christ, becoming again combining again, glorifying and transfiguring in union with all mankind as one in being in the Confirmed re-Sanctified Will of The Creator and One God, for The Person of God The Father.

In logic what make truth is that the story never chances, sanctified glorified and transfigured from transformed immortal and incorruptible from first becoming created mortal and corrupt.

Theory of Knowledge (TOK) is . It's also known as epistemology, which is a branch of philosophy that studies the nature, origin, and limits of knowledge.

First, keep in mind that critical thinking is simply a “deliberate thought process.”

Basically, it means that you are using reason and logic to come to a conclusion about an issue or decision one is with tangling.

Peace always,
Stephen Andrew

 

[Valjean]

My logical mind tells me things happen to people that no one can prove after the fact. Just ignoring what they say if it can't be fact-checked greatly impoverishes what we can consider in our understanding of reality.

Again, and again, if your only interest is science then carry on that way. In my judgment, the limitations of science are clear and obvious and I'm willing to consider what other wisdom traditions have to tell us. The key point becomes the existence of additional planes of nature not directly detectable by the physical senses and instruments that are the current toolbox of science.

My 'only interest' is truth and Reality, and scientific research has proven the best way to arrive at these. Religion's been at it for millennia, and has yet to reach any consistent, testable findings or general agreement.
The "other wisdom traditions" all tell us different things; none seems able or even interested in backing up their claims with any research or testing. The "wisdom" is all faith-based.

Fine. And there it ends if your only interest is science.

My position is that science is great for understanding the physical plane. But I believe there is more than the physical plane in reality.

OK, great. If you can show that; if you can produce any objective evidence of an alternate reality, researchers will be on it in a minute. But so far I see a lot of conflicting claims and no empirical supporting evidence.
If you have it, show your work.