And still religion has no evidenced explanation for these strange phenomena, which seem to fall within the purview of testable reality, so it's still science that will have to do the investigation.
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A lot Of People Talk About Needing Evidence To Believe There’s A God
- Thread starter Jimmy
- Start date
I have found Vedic and Theosophical sources to be consistent and not faith based but based on the clairvoyant insight of many masters. Their model provides an explanatory model for paranormal things that science is uncomfortable with or prefers denial.
It starts with real-world observations (paranormal) that things dramatically beyond science's understanding do occur. And these things are part and parcel of these other models.
What does "in logic" mean? What is "The Logic of The Kingdom of The Divine Will of Creation?" What is
" the Mind of God in the Flesh of All Mankind?"
You speak in convoluted, poetic riddles most of us can't make heads or tails of, A.S.
Please link to some explanatory sites or research papers on this "spirit."
No. What makes truth is that the claim is well evidenced, productive and tested (unable to be falsified).
Yes, I'm a big fan of critical thinking. It, and evidence, is pretty much the epistemic gold standard.
Yet its application doesn't lead to theology or the supernatural...
We share a "religious" outlook, G-a, but differ in research goals. I seek a testable "Vedantic" ontologic model that will yield consistent, productive insights and general acceptance within the scientific community.
A philosophia perennis may be a good start, but relying on personal insight as your sole epistemic tool and expecting to communicate this, and gain general acceptance, without objective, reproducible, tested evidence is impracticable, in my opinion. I don't believe such a research modality will ever fly within the scientific community or even the general public.
Clizby Wampuscat
Well-Known Member
God should be able to provide me the evidence I need to believe it is real. I am just waiting for that evidence.
What if the situation is that we can only directly detect things of our familiar physical plane but souls and astral bodies are things not of the physical plane. So it seems you can only look for physical phenomena in science and what these clairvoyant masters are talking about is not physical and detectable by physical senses and instruments?
Here is more on planes of nature.
Excerpt:
Planes in Theosophy
The word “plane” means an extension of space. There are multiple planes of nature, such as physical, astral, mental, buddhic, ātmic, and other finer planes. While they appear to co-exist in the same physical location, that is, the physical head may also be in the same location as non-physical thinking, they belong to distinct layers of existence such that they may not actually interact with each other unless interconnected by intermediate matter or processes.Science tells us that the majority of matter in the universe is not directly detectable by our physical senses and instruments, so-called Dark Matter. Further speculation is that these higher planes affect the physical plane in ways that appear random and unpredictable to a physical only observation (quantum behavior?).
Anyway I believe there is a ton of so-called paranormal phenomena that seem to make no sense in a physical only understanding. Science needs theories even if they must wait for testing at this time.
Agreed.
Surely the Author of the Universe could figure out a convincing demonstration, if He really wanted people to believe in him. Yet He does not -- even though the Bible says disbelievers will spend eternity in Hell. Is he just sadistic? Does he love only credulous idiots who abnegate the intelligence He endowed us with? If so, why did He give us brains to begin with?
Maybe He's just sadistic. Several biblical narratives would seem to indicate so.
Alas, you and I will never agree on the reality of the paranormal ─ at least, not until there's a satisfactory demonstration of it in reality.
How would you propose convincing people of any of this? What tests would you propose for scientists to falsify it?
That doesn't follow. Show us the logic underlying this claim.
Doesn't this violate forum rule #8?
McBell
Unbound
What tools are available to detect what is happening in your scenario?
None, right?
So we are right back to:
And just how is science to test all these reports?
Again, it is something out of the current science spectrum
Until such time as that changes, science will pretty much ignore it
I believe in it beyond reasonable from the quantity, quality and consistency of anecdotal cases. And there are even controlled experimental reasons.
As I keep saying, I consider it beyond the reach of current science, but I am interested in things beyond science. I suspect science of the future will develop new tools that will make this testable.
And billions already believe some versions of these things including some scientists and George-ananda despite current science's inability to confirm. Science does the physical plane only at this time. The paranormal tells me there's more. When I hear things like children with verifiable reincarnation memories and near death experiences that include knowledge of verifiable physical event even some distance from their body, I can only conclude science is going to need some revolutionary new additions in the future to account for these things.
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YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
As far as I am concerned, have studied and researched, the term 'hell' is vastly misunderstood by many.
Peace to all,
To me this is the theology through the logic of the intelligence of the Will of Creation becoming to all mankind from the manifestation through The Spirit Power.
To me in logic of the Trinity as three separate and equal Powers in Being as One God in being and if we look at God as beings in Person, then we can see the Will of the Father as the Word, the intelligence of Creation conceived in the Person of Jesus as God delivering together in the Christ, the Person of the Holy Spirit being as God in the person of Jesus. In logic, the Christ is the Will of the Father in logic and is the Power of the Holy Spirit being in the Person of the Holy Spirit conceived in Jesus as God as the becoming of The Christ, becoming immortality and incorruptibility in all mankind as Baptized. And the Christ becomes again as glorified from immortality and incorruptibility becoming again through all of the wondrous mysteries of the faith and transfigured into the image of the Creator God and One God, for God the Father.
To me in logic, the pattern of eternity is manifested by the spirit selected and then becoming again. In logic, What will be understood is manifested from the Spirit through the flesh for the soul of the being by choice. What Spirit say all mankind? We are all given the freedom, all mankind. We know how to judge ourselves through choice and we know not to judge others, only the Spirit is the Judge and in logic allowing the Spirit becoming.
Thanks, and we know not to preach, and I will comply with the moderators and administrators on the board. I just am needing help in the logic, You are correct. Thanks again. I will be careful, I just need help conveying for all what will manifest as the Will of the Spirit. In logic, allow the Spirit becoming the freedom to be Judge.
And I see the intelligence of creation trying to help mankind in trying to get all together in what it takes for a more mentally joyous and abundant world. Sometimes perhaps through the logic I see, trying sometimes to see the logic pushes me too fast and hurries my answer to swiftly. I know not to preach and to me in logic, I am only searching what will manifest more abundance in all that is not readily avail-ably answered in the finite disciplines and may more easily be conveyed through logic.
Thanks in advance, and I know all are searching for the "Holy Grail" for all combined in mental wellness. Manifestation of the pattern of infallible wellness to me in logic is from the spirit through the flesh for the soul of the being. Proposing the pattern is one thing, and another thing is logically derive the pattern from the great religious leaders of the world. What does it take to make the world well, in promises made by them, all world leaders in religion of the world deliver messages and in wellness and reasonable facsimiles of more abundant life on earth. In faith and logic, what must we do to make life more well?
In logic to me, it is the spirit that we become, from the pattern of the truth we accept. To me in logic, the question becomes what logic do we accept to become again? To me in logic, manifestation becomes from the spirit through the Body the pattern of the Will of The Spirit to become again, better, more well, more abundant, in logic. To me in logic, it is the intelligence that manifests from the logic, the pattern of behavior intrinsic in the Power of the intelligence of the logic, the Will. And with respect to all, I am trying not to preach, just convey an idea already manifesting from a spirit.
Thanks for the information. In logic I see the Spirit trying to get all people together. What makes from the pattern of modeling the outcome of religious leaders to me in logic is getting all people together perhaps some logical way to become in a spirit of unity. Perhaps I am searching too hard in logic to unite in the finite world becoming what can't be finitely. In logic and through faith, based on the finite disciplines of earth uniting all mankind more together in mental joy and mental peace could be to hard to calculate using the finite disciplines of calculations and theories?
To me in fulfilled Logic, What would Creation Logic do in all cases of Fulfilled Creation Pattern, as one fulfilled Spirit. To me in logic there is only one pattern that will never fail and is the image in intelligence as infallible intelligence re-imaging the being manifesting the most wellness.
In logic, the Soul is the Temple of the Flesh and the Spirit and logically is the Trinity of the Mortal Body.
The Spirit is blown into the Soul at the blood and water birth from the mother for all mankind in the Flesh as The Created Body.
And the Christ in all mankind becomes again as glorified in immortality and incorruptibility becoming again through all of the wondrous mysteries of the faith and transfigured into the image of the Creator God, for the Father.
For from Him and through Him and for Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen. Romans, 11:36
In logic, the mind of God is delivered through The Power of the Holy Spirit Person as God through the Person of Jesus as God becoming The Christ for all mankind becoming again the image of the Creator God for God the Father in the intelligence of infallible eternity and one in being.
On another note and through logic and faith, The Baptism of the Christ by St. John the Baptizer in The Pentecost of The Body of Christ allows death and resurrection of the immortal and incorruptible Body of Christ through death and resurrection from the Cross to become again glorified and transfigured.
And with the respect to the Flesh and Spirit in the Soul of all mankind:
In logic, what I see from the logic through the Power is from created, born mortal and corrupt, becoming transformed immortal and incorruptible, becoming again glorified and transfigured becoming the image of Creation, a logical Trinity in Eternity becoming reborn as the New Body, re-imaged and saved, in the logic through "One Breath" as the one pattern from unfailing intelligence.
Peace always,
Stephen
To me this is the theology through the logic of the intelligence of the Will of Creation becoming to all mankind from the manifestation through The Spirit Power.
To me in logic of the Trinity as three separate and equal Powers in Being as One God in being and if we look at God as beings in Person, then we can see the Will of the Father as the Word, the intelligence of Creation conceived in the Person of Jesus as God delivering together in the Christ, the Person of the Holy Spirit being as God in the person of Jesus. In logic, the Christ is the Will of the Father in logic and is the Power of the Holy Spirit being in the Person of the Holy Spirit conceived in Jesus as God as the becoming of The Christ, becoming immortality and incorruptibility in all mankind as Baptized. And the Christ becomes again as glorified from immortality and incorruptibility becoming again through all of the wondrous mysteries of the faith and transfigured into the image of the Creator God and One God, for God the Father.
To me in logic, the pattern of eternity is manifested by the spirit selected and then becoming again. In logic, What will be understood is manifested from the Spirit through the flesh for the soul of the being by choice. What Spirit say all mankind? We are all given the freedom, all mankind. We know how to judge ourselves through choice and we know not to judge others, only the Spirit is the Judge and in logic allowing the Spirit becoming.
Thanks, and we know not to preach, and I will comply with the moderators and administrators on the board. I just am needing help in the logic, You are correct. Thanks again. I will be careful, I just need help conveying for all what will manifest as the Will of the Spirit. In logic, allow the Spirit becoming the freedom to be Judge.
And I see the intelligence of creation trying to help mankind in trying to get all together in what it takes for a more mentally joyous and abundant world. Sometimes perhaps through the logic I see, trying sometimes to see the logic pushes me too fast and hurries my answer to swiftly. I know not to preach and to me in logic, I am only searching what will manifest more abundance in all that is not readily avail-ably answered in the finite disciplines and may more easily be conveyed through logic.
Thanks in advance, and I know all are searching for the "Holy Grail" for all combined in mental wellness. Manifestation of the pattern of infallible wellness to me in logic is from the spirit through the flesh for the soul of the being. Proposing the pattern is one thing, and another thing is logically derive the pattern from the great religious leaders of the world. What does it take to make the world well, in promises made by them, all world leaders in religion of the world deliver messages and in wellness and reasonable facsimiles of more abundant life on earth. In faith and logic, what must we do to make life more well?
In logic to me, it is the spirit that we become, from the pattern of the truth we accept. To me in logic, the question becomes what logic do we accept to become again? To me in logic, manifestation becomes from the spirit through the Body the pattern of the Will of The Spirit to become again, better, more well, more abundant, in logic. To me in logic, it is the intelligence that manifests from the logic, the pattern of behavior intrinsic in the Power of the intelligence of the logic, the Will. And with respect to all, I am trying not to preach, just convey an idea already manifesting from a spirit.
Thanks for the information. In logic I see the Spirit trying to get all people together. What makes from the pattern of modeling the outcome of religious leaders to me in logic is getting all people together perhaps some logical way to become in a spirit of unity. Perhaps I am searching too hard in logic to unite in the finite world becoming what can't be finitely. In logic and through faith, based on the finite disciplines of earth uniting all mankind more together in mental joy and mental peace could be to hard to calculate using the finite disciplines of calculations and theories?
To me in fulfilled Logic, What would Creation Logic do in all cases of Fulfilled Creation Pattern, as one fulfilled Spirit. To me in logic there is only one pattern that will never fail and is the image in intelligence as infallible intelligence re-imaging the being manifesting the most wellness.
In logic, the Soul is the Temple of the Flesh and the Spirit and logically is the Trinity of the Mortal Body.
The Spirit is blown into the Soul at the blood and water birth from the mother for all mankind in the Flesh as The Created Body.
And the Christ in all mankind becomes again as glorified in immortality and incorruptibility becoming again through all of the wondrous mysteries of the faith and transfigured into the image of the Creator God, for the Father.
For from Him and through Him and for Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen. Romans, 11:36
In logic, the mind of God is delivered through The Power of the Holy Spirit Person as God through the Person of Jesus as God becoming The Christ for all mankind becoming again the image of the Creator God for God the Father in the intelligence of infallible eternity and one in being.
On another note and through logic and faith, The Baptism of the Christ by St. John the Baptizer in The Pentecost of The Body of Christ allows death and resurrection of the immortal and incorruptible Body of Christ through death and resurrection from the Cross to become again glorified and transfigured.
And with the respect to the Flesh and Spirit in the Soul of all mankind:
In logic, what I see from the logic through the Power is from created, born mortal and corrupt, becoming transformed immortal and incorruptible, becoming again glorified and transfigured becoming the image of Creation, a logical Trinity in Eternity becoming reborn as the New Body, re-imaged and saved, in the logic through "One Breath" as the one pattern from unfailing intelligence.
Peace always,
Stephen
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Alien826
No religious beliefs
Yup. Science is definitely the best way to go. One thing I have found is that people wanting to contact deceased loved ones, for example, desperately want it to be true. That's not a good mental posture for investigating the truth of it.
I really don't know what tools are available. Maybe @Sgt. Pepper can help. In general, if there is a reported phenomenon, like a drop in temperature in the presence of a "ghost", that can be measured and other explanations eliminated (or found). If a conversation can be established through a medium, the whole thing can be conducted under controlled conditions, and the claims checked. That would establish, or negate, that "something" is going on that can't be explained away as purely subjective.
That might be enough to convince scientists to look into it. If they found a way to detect neutrinos, surely they can devise something. Hey, here's a thought. Tell them there's some military use for it, possibly in the field of communication. I bet there would a dozen experiments set up the next day!
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
I believe that there is more than just what we can see with our own eyes. I believe this because I've lived with this phenomenon my entire life. It's part of my life. FWIW, I'm a firm believer in "seeing is believing," because I've found that this is the only sure way to convince skeptics that the paranormal is real.
I agree but the Scientism types accept only input from the physical senses and instruments. To me that is an impoverishing approach given the mysteries (paranormal) that do occur in this world. I have come to believe that psychic sensing can detect things the physical senses and instruments cannot. Science only explores the physical plane at this time, but I have come to believe there is more to reality than that.
Yeah, but how do you get them to experience the paranormal? And the determined skeptic will try to find another interpretation of the event.
And that is the problem. You'd have to show them something which couldn't be explained any other way. Couldn't be explain in a way that could be supported by science.
You could for example use ghosts or spirits as an explanation by then you'd have to explain how ghosts and spirits worked supported by evidence.
There are such paranormal events that cannot be explained by current science. That's almost the definition of paranormal.
That would be the gold standard, but prior to knowing the detailed operation one can accept that something unknown to science is occurring. To brush aside that something is occurring because we don't understand it yet is an impoverishing approach. It then becomes time to consider what those claiming clairvoyant insight have to tell us about the phenomena. That's where I am at, considering the teachings of the Hindu and Theosophical masters.