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A Message to Clergy

Sasa

Member
This is a Message to the Clergy from the Cherubic Order. They would like to set the record straight in regards to the Fleecing of the Flock:
Tithing was a requirement while still under Yahweh's Mosaic Law.
Hebrews 7:5 "The sons of Levi who receive the priestly office have a commandment according to the law to collect a tenth from the people that is, from their brothers though they have [also] descended from Abraham." (HCSB)
Leviticus 27:30 "Every tenth of the land's produce, grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord." (HCSB)
Leviticus 27:32 "Every tenth animal from the herd or flock, which passes under the [shepherd's] rod, will be holy to the Lord." (HCSB)
Numbers 18:26 "Speak to the Levites and tell them: When you receive from the Israelites the tenth that I have given you as your inheritance, you must present part of it as an offering to the Lord a tenth of the tenth." (HCSB)
Numbers 18:28 "You are to present an offering to the Lord from every tenth you receive from the Israelites. Give some of it to Aaron the priest as an offering to the Lord." (HCSB)
Deuteronomy 14:28, 29 "At the end of [every] three years, bring a tenth of all your produce for that year and store [it] within your gates. Then the Levite, who has no portion or inheritance among you, the foreign resident, fatherless, and widow within your gates may come, eat, and be satisfied. And the Lord your God will bless you in all the work of your hands that you do." (HCSB)
Jesus Christ upheld tithing while the law covenant was still in force, which was prior to his death on the Cross.
Luke 11:42 "But woe to you Pharisees! You give a tenth of mint, rue, and every kind of herb, and you bypass justice and love for God. These things you should have done without neglecting the others." (HCSB)
The Mosaic Law fulfilled its purpose, and was taken out of the way, because Christ Fulfilled the Law.
Matthew 5:17 ""Don't assume that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill." (HCSB)
The Law served as a Guardian, until Christ; then it was no longer needed, because those that believe in Christ are justified by their faith - not a written law.
Galatians 3:24 "The law, then, was our guardian until Christ, so that we could be justified by faith." (HCSB)
With the faith, you are no longer under the guardian - the written Law.
Galatians 3:25 "But since that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian," (HCSB)
The Mosaic Laws were nailed to the torture stake with Christ's sacrifice.
Colossians 2:13, 14 "And when you were dead in trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive with Him and forgave us all our trespasses. He erased the certificate of debt, with its obligations, that was against us and opposed to us, and has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the cross." (HCSB)
You are no longer under Law, but are under undeserved kindness. It is not a sin to refuse to give a tenth of the mint to any fleecing religious organization, or any lying evangelist that tells you it is a requirement.
Romans 6:14 "For sin will not rule over you, because you are not under law but under grace." (HCSB)
Tithing was not included among the necessary things that were made binding on people that have faith in Christ.
Acts 15:28, 29 "For it was the Holy Spirit's decision and ours to put no greater burden on you than these necessary things: that you abstain from food offered to idols, from blood, from eating anything that has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these things, you will do well. Farewell." (HCSB)
Abraham voluntarily gave a tenth - or tithe, to Melchizedek on just one occasion. It was not a continuous ongoing tradition as some deceptive Shepherds would have you believe.
Genesis 14:18-20 "Then Melchizedek, king of Salem, brought out bread and wine; he was a priest to God Most High. He blessed him and said: Abram is blessed by God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth, and give praise to God Most High who has handed over your enemies to you. And Abram gave him a tenth of everything." (HCSB)
This scripture is what the deceptive Shepherds use to try and falsely claim that forced tithing still must be in effect but Christ moved the Law out of the way. It is no longer valid.
Hebrews 7:4-10 "Now consider how great this man was, to whom even Abraham the patriarch gave a tenth of the plunder! The sons of Levi who receive the priestly office have a commandment according to the law to collect a tenth from the people that is, from their brothers though they have [also] descended from Abraham. But one without this lineage collected tithes from Abraham and blessed the one who had the promises. Without a doubt,the inferior is blessed by the superior. In the one case, men who will die receive tithes; but in the other case, [Scripture] testifies that he lives. And in a sense Levi himself, who receives tithes, has paid tithes through Abraham, for he was still within his forefather when Melchizedek met him." (HCSB)
Jacob vowed to voluntarily give a tenth to God, but it was not required by Law.
Genesis 28:20-22 "Then Jacob made a vow: If God will be with me and watch over me on this journey, if He provides me with food to eat and clothing to wear, 21 and if I return safely to my father's house, then the LORD will be my God. This stone that I have set up as a marker will be God's house, and I will give to You a tenth of all that You give me." (HCSB)
People positive in energy for Christ, give voluntarily, and no amount is specified. It is a lie for any Shepherd or anyone claiming to represent Christ, to say that you are under compulsion to give a specified amount. It is in essence, a fleecing of Christ's flock. Giving is not a necessity like it was under the Law.
2 Corinthians 9:7 "Each person should do as he has decided in his heart not out of regret or out of necessity, for God loves a cheerful giver." (HCSB)
Contributions are from the heart; the amounts given are a gift, not a requirement.
1 Corinthians 16:2, 3 "On the first day of the week, each of you is to set something aside and save to the extent that he prospers, so that no collections will need to be made when I come. And when I arrive, I will send those whom you recommend by letter to carry your gracious gift to Jerusalem." (HCSB)
It is according to what you feel you can afford to give that determines the amount given. It is not a sin if you give nothing. The Shepherds are supposed to be out there for Christ - not sticking out their hands to rob Christ's flock of all they can drain them for. The voluntary funds collected are supposed to be used to fund the preaching of the Kingdom Message, not to line their personal bank accounts.
Acts 11:29, 30 "So each of the disciples, according to his ability, determined to send relief to the brothers who lived in Judea. This they did, sending it to the elders by means of Barnabas and Saul." (HCSB)
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Tithing, like any other spiritual discipline, must not be forced upon one. One must engage in it of one's own volition. While tithing, as a spiritual discipline, is not mandatory for our righteousness, it is healthy for us and for the Church, it is a good thing to do, if you so desire, and it is an acceptable sacrifice to God, as long as it is done in the right spirit.
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
sojourner said:
Tithing, like any other spiritual discipline, must not be forced upon one. One must engage in it of one's own volition. While tithing, as a spiritual discipline, is not mandatory for our righteousness, it is healthy for us and for the Church, it is a good thing to do, if you so desire, and it is an acceptable sacrifice to God, as long as it is done in the right spirit.

And yet I can't think of one mainstream church we've gone to that hasn't reminded us every so gently to tithe one-tenth.
 

Sasa

Member
Snowbear said:
I thought this sounded familiar....

http://www.bible-truths.com/tithing.html

;)

Thank you for posting that. I'll have to check out the rest of the site as well. I especially liked where it said: "Giving is voluntary from the HEART."

If there was one thing I could convey to people above all, it's that the HEART is just so very important. What's written on it, what it says to us, how it dictates our actions, what it says about us, and how it's our hearts that will be read and by which we are ultimately judged by. It also plays such a huge part in understanding God's Message to us...

I'm having a hard time finding the words for what I really want to say or to even begin to explain it's importance in the big scheme of things, but I think if more people realized that it's the Heart that truly counts and what truly matters above all else, not only would there be a lot more tolerance in the world, but so many more eternal lives would be saved.

"Above all else guard your heart, for it is the source of life." Proverbs 4:23
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
if more people realized that it's the Heart that truly counts and what truly matters above all else...so many more eternal lives would be saved.

This doesn't fit with the theology of salvation by grace. Salvation isn't based upon what we know or understand. Salvation is ours through the Christ-event.

edit: It should go without saying that if the heart is not in the giving, then it's not giving, it's an assessment that buys righteousness.
 

Sasa

Member
It's obtained both ways. And if more people understood how important the conditions of our hearts really is, more people would obtain eternal salvation.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Sasa said:
It's obtained both ways. And if more people understood how important the conditions of our hearts really is, more people would obtain eternal salvation.

This is off-topic. There are several other threads available for debating the nature of salvation...or a new one could be started. :)

I'd like to continue this particular debate with you, but not in this thread.
 

Sasa

Member
sojourner said:
I'd like to continue this particular debate with you, but not in this thread.

I wouldn't. I'm not here to debate - I'm here to educate. But before I place you on ignore, I must deliver this message to you:

"to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor, and the day of our God's vengeance..." Isaiah 61:2

"The tumult reaches to the ends of the earth because the LORD brings a case against the nations. He enters into judgment with all flesh. As for the wicked, He hands them over to the sword [This is] the LORD's declaration." Jeremiah 25:31

"I tell you that on the day of judgment people will have to account for every careless word they speak." Matthew 12:36

"This, then, is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil." John 3:19

"When I say to the wicked, 'O wicked man, you will surely die,' and you do not speak out to dissuade him from his ways, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood." Ezekiel 33:8

 

Booko

Deviled Hen
Moon Woman said:
And yet I can't think of one mainstream church we've gone to that hasn't reminded us every so gently to tithe one-tenth.

The church I was raised in never ever did, not even gently. If they discussed finances from the pulpit, it was only to deliver the annual report on expenses, or encourage people *generally* to give to one of more of the funds.

My mom's still in that church, and for decades she's never heard the word "tithe" come from the pulpit or the Consistory. I woulda heard about it if it had...whew! She's be pretty ticked about it.

btw, it's a Reformed church.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
Sasa said:
I wouldn't. I'm not here to debate - I'm here to educate. But before I place you on ignore, I must deliver this message to you:

Funny, this begins to look more like a lecture.

btw, I've always found Sojourner to be a rather nice and polite sort of fellow, who writes some very thought-provoking things.

I find it interesting that you would even consider putting him on an ignore list.

Perhaps I'll join him there shortly, eh? ;)
 

Sasa

Member
Booko said:
I find it interesting that you would even consider putting him on an ignore list.

When it comes to ministering or discussing the Scriptures, if you start to see you're going around and around with someone that is when it is best to agree to disagree and move on. Having further contact with that person will dilute you with negative energy and if it's bad enough and the negative energy dilutes your teardrop to the point that it is clear, gray or black, you would not be raptured. You have to know when to be silent and when to speak. This is spoken of many times in the Bible.

"a time to tear and a time to sew; a time to be silent and a time to speak; " Ecclesiastes 3:7 (HCSB)

When you are going around in a cycle of debate, be wise and become silent.

"Therefore, the wise person will keep silent at such a time, for the days are evil." Amos 5:13 (HCSB)

"So he kept asking Him questions, but Jesus did not answer him." Luke 23:9 (HCSB)

Why didn't Jesus answer him? He didn’t answer because Jesus discerned the man’s intent. They were going to go around in circles trying to trip him up, because they had no sincere desire of the Truth that he spoke to the masses. He did not want to take in negative energy by communicating with him. His choice was to remain silent.

"Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Try to do what is honorable in everyone's eyes." Romans 12:17 (HCSB)

If you continue to heatedly debate someone rather than shaking the dirt from your feet as a testament against that individual, you are then considered as repaying that person "evil for evil". That causes the negative energy to come back upon you. This Scripture also has a dual meaning, in that you should not wish evil upon an evil person. It goes back to shaking the dust from your feet. This symbolic action is testimony you have finished with that person. To go any farther is to bring negative energy upon you.

"Do not be conquered by evil, but conquer evil with good." Romans 12:21(HCSB)

How can you be conquered by evil if you are good (positive energy)? Because among many of Satan's tactics, he can keep you attached to negative energy long enough to alter the color of your tear-drop. You conquer the evil negative energy by discontinuing contact. What does light have to do with darkness? Nothing. They are opposites. They do not mix.

"Don't say, "I will avenge this evil!" Wait on the Lord, and He will rescue you." Proverbs 20:22 (HCSB)

Where do you say that at? In your heart. You seek to avenge those that counter your faith in Christ. But is it right? What happens when you continue to try and counter after you have given the Judgment? You start taking in their negative energy. You have stayed to long. Your tear-drop has changed color. So, who will avenge the controversy over the Truth? Who will be your rescuer at the Rapture and take you out of this wicked world?

"For we are making provision for what is honorable, not only before the Lord but also before men." 2 Corinthians 8:21 (HCSB)

When ministering, or discussing the Scriptures you must act in an honorable fashion before mankind because you represent Christ, whom you act honorable before also. As his minister you are representing him in an honorable way. Christ would not continue to debate those that are vile negative energy. Keep in mind that negative energy feeds off negative energy. The moment they begin feeding off of you, you'd better do a tear-drop color check of your own self.

"Don't give what is holy to dogs or toss your pearls before pigs, or they will trample them with their feet, turn, and tear you to pieces." Matthew 7:6 (HCSB)

Using that figuratively, he meant don't continue to give the truth or your pearls of precious knowledge and time to negative energy. Once you know they have a wall of negativity up, you must move on from them. If you don't, they will "tear you to pieces" by filling your tear-drop with negative energy in the process of trying to get them to see the light. Jesus knew it was futile to try and do so, and would harm you in the process.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
Sasa said:
When it comes to ministering or discussing the Scriptures, if you start to see you're going around and around with someone that is when it is best to agree to disagree and move on. Having further contact with that person will dilute you with negative energy and if it's bad enough and the negative energy dilutes your teardrop to the point that it is clear, gray or black, you would not be raptured. You have to know when to be silent and when to speak.

True enough, Sasa.

It's just that I've found with most people that they have their stronger and weaker areas. I might ignore the weaker areas by passing on a reply, but if I put people on ignore lists as a general thing, I miss out on some very informative things.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Sasa said:
I wouldn't. I'm not here to debate - I'm here to educate. But before I place you on ignore, I must deliver this message to you:

"to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor, and the day of our God's vengeance..." Isaiah 61:2

"The tumult reaches to the ends of the earth because the LORD brings a case against the nations. He enters into judgment with all flesh. As for the wicked, He hands them over to the sword [This is] the LORD's declaration." Jeremiah 25:31

"I tell you that on the day of judgment people will have to account for every careless word they speak." Matthew 12:36

"This, then, is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil." John 3:19

"When I say to the wicked, 'O wicked man, you will surely die,' and you do not speak out to dissuade him from his ways, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood." Ezekiel 33:8


Thank you. Here are some messages for you!:)

Lk.14:23b -- "Go out intot the roads and lanes, and compel people to come in, so that my house may be filled."

Lk. 15:3 -- "Which one of you, having a hundred sheep and losing one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness and go after the one that is lost until he finds it?"

Lk.15:8 -- "Or what woman having ten silver coins, if she loses one of them, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds it?"

Is. 14:1 -- "But the LORD will have compassion on Jacob and will agian choose Israel, and will set them in their own land;"

Is. 25:1-2 -- ''The wilderness and the dry land shall be glad, the desert shall rejoice and blossem; like crocus it shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice with joy and singing. The glory of Lebanon shall be given to it, the majesty of Carmel and Sharon. They shall see the glory of the LORD, the majesty of our God."

Lk. 1:68-79 -- "Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel; he has come to his people and set them free. He has raised up for us a mighty savior, born of the house of his servant David."

Is. 12:2a -- "Surely it is God who saves me; I will trust in him and not be afraid.

Psalm 95:7 -- "for he is our God, and we are the people of his pasture and the sheep of his hand."

Psalm 100:5 -- "For the Lord is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his faithfulness endures from age to age."

God is abundant to us -- why should our abundance to God, through tithing, through acts of love and mercy, be any less?
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
sojourner said:
God is abundant to us -- why should our abundance to God, through tithing, through acts of love and mercy, be any less?
If any common practice such as our tithing becomes a thing of disgrace, bringing shame to the holy name of God in the eyes of unbelievers or a point of contention within the body, it needs to be examined carefully and addressed. By carefully I mean from a scriptural, spiritual and logical POV.

I believe this is a valid POV and subject for discussion. For example, I see nothing wrong with the following statement:

It is according to what you feel you can afford to give that determines the amount given. It is not a sin if you give nothing.
or this

The Shepherds are supposed to be out there for Christ -
...and although I would not go so far as to assume on all counts...

- not sticking out their hands to rob Christ's flock of all they can drain them for.
... I think it's about time all Christians stepped up to the plate and opened their eyes. it is meet and right to strongly chastise -- to the point of loudly and publicly denouncing and excommunicating from the body of Christ -- any wrong-headed pastor or deliberately deceptive shyster who does this.

Rather than just engaging in the same practice on a smaller, perhaps quieter scale in the local church.

The televangelists and many local ministers are shaming the body and bringing disgrace to the Holy name of God. We should look to the rage of Christ on the temple steps when he overturned the tables of the money-changers.

Where's the outrage? I don't see it.

I think this is another way in which the church in America has failed miserably. Benny Hinn and his ilk, all the televangelists with their faces on cable TV 24/7 are permitted to besmirch the name of God with little outcry from our pulpits.

I challenge every believer to watch these programs and let it sink in. Do you know how much money is flowing into those coffers? How much emotional spiritual blackmail is going on there?

If you really want to know how many of your skeptical friends, coworkers, neighbors and relatives see Christianity, watch Trinity Broadcasting Network for a few hours and you'll have your answer.

(I won't even go into the poor deluded believers who follow them, and are eventually disullusioned, disappointed etc.)

The voluntary funds collected are supposed to be used to fund the preaching of the Kingdom Message, not to line their personal bank accounts.
Acts 11:29, 30 "So each of the disciples, according to his ability, determined to send relief to the brothers who lived in Judea. This they did, sending it to the elders by means of Barnabas and Saul." (HCSB)
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Moon Woman said:
If any common practice such as our tithing becomes a thing of disgrace, bringing shame to the holy name of God in the eyes of unbelievers or a point of contention within the body, it needs to be examined carefully and addressed. By carefully I mean from a scriptural, spiritual and logical POV.

I believe this is a valid POV and subject for discussion. For example, I see nothing wrong with the following statement:

or this
...and although I would not go so far as to assume on all counts...... I think it's about time all Christians stepped up to the plate and opened their eyes. it is meet and right to strongly chastise -- to the point of loudly and publicly denouncing and excommunicating from the body of Christ -- any wrong-headed pastor or deliberately deceptive shyster who does this.

Rather than just engaging in the same practice on a smaller, perhaps quieter scale in the local church.

The televangelists and many local ministers are shaming the body and bringing disgrace to the Holy name of God. We should look to the rage of Christ on the temple steps when he overturned the tables of the money-changers.

Where's the outrage? I don't see it.

I think this is another way in which the church in America has failed miserably. Benny Hinn and his ilk, all the televangelists with their faces on cable TV 24/7 are permitted to besmirch the name of God with little outcry from our pulpits.

I challenge every believer to watch these programs and let it sink in. Do you know how much money is flowing into those coffers? How much emotional spiritual blackmail is going on there?

If you really want to know how many of your skeptical friends, coworkers, neighbors and relatives see Christianity, watch Trinity Broadcasting Network for a few hours and you'll have your answer.

(I won't even go into the poor deluded believers who follow them, and are eventually disullusioned, disappointed etc.)
:clap:clap:clap:clap

Amen to that!

[edit]: A tithe (as I've said before) must be voluntary and must not be seen as a way to buy eternity for ourselves. It must be a joyful response to the bounty we have been given. Otherwise, it's much mor harmful than beneficial.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
sojourner said:
Tithing, like any other spiritual discipline, must not be forced upon one. One must engage in it of one's own volition. While tithing, as a spiritual discipline, is not mandatory for our righteousness, it is healthy for us and for the Church, it is a good thing to do, if you so desire, and it is an acceptable sacrifice to God, as long as it is done in the right spirit.
I don't believe that God would want to have us forced to obey any of His laws. The payment of tithes is, however, a law that was given in Old Testament times and has never been rescinded. The scriptures do make a distinction between tithes and offerings, the former being a law and the latter not.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Katzpur said:
I don't believe that God would want to have us forced to obey any of His laws. The payment of tithes is, however, a law that was given in Old Testament times and has never been rescinded. The scriptures do make a distinction between tithes and offerings, the former being a law and the latter not.

The scriptures also make dietary practices a matter of Law, which Christians no longer keep. Jesus came to fulfill the Law, making it unnecessary for us to keep the Law as a matter of righteousness. While tithing may be a healthy spiritual discipline, I don't think God requires it of us, any more than God requires us to be circumcised.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
sojourner said:
The scriptures also make dietary practices a matter of Law, which Christians no longer keep. Jesus came to fulfill the Law, making it unnecessary for us to keep the Law as a matter of righteousness. While tithing may be a healthy spiritual discipline, I don't think God requires it of us, any more than God requires us to be circumcised.
Does He require us to love our neighbor, to be faithful to our spouse, to keep the Sabbath Day holy, and to be honest with one another? Or did Jesus' fulfillment of "the law" absolve us from keeping these commandments, too? Strictly speaking, God doesn't require anything of us. He gives us our agency. We are free to either obey or disobey His commandments, as we choose. Jesus specifically pointed out to the Pharisees that while the payment of tithes is not as "weighty" a matter as mercy and faith, it is still a law. What exactly would He have needed to say in order for you to believe this law is more than a "healthy spiritual discipline"? In my opinion, the payment of tithes is a simple, straightforward matter of conscience. God gives us virtually everything we have, and asks us to return a mere 10% to Him. Why anyone would feel the need to look for a loophole in this law is beyond me.
 
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