A poll on the specificity of laws from God

[TagliatelliMonster]

The 613 laws of the Torah were given by God through Moses to who? The People of Israel. Not the world. There is no need for a Gentile sitting in Pizza Hut to feel guilty about chowing down on a pepperoni pizza or mowing his lawn on a Saturday.

"the 10", are part of those 613.

This doesn't mean there aren't universal laws. Things like, Don't murder, Don't steal, Don't commit adultery... These kinds of laws apply to everyone.

Yes, those... they are part of those 613 of which you just said that they only apply to the people of Israel.

The universal laws are a subset of the 613, since obviously Jews were given the universal laws as well as the laws specific to us.

How do you differentiate the "universal" ones from the "specific ones"?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Lets talk about a specific law. The law that forbids homosexuality. Both Mosaic and Sharia law have that injunction. However because Christians are not under Mosaic law they must go by what the Holy Spirit teaches them. I believe the Holy Spirit is teaching that the injunction is correct.

I believe on the other hand both Mosaic law and Sharia law say one may not eat pork but Jesus says otherwise. The Holy Spirit affirms what Jesus said.

The bottom line is that those who have Mosaic law or Sharia law are stuck in a cultural bondage because those laws can't change but Christians have a dynamic law that is pertinent to our lives today.

So how do you find out what "the holy spirit" thinks or affirms or whatever?

 

[Ellen Brown]

Yeah people love to wave with the 10 commandments.
But there are actually 613 of them.
Some of them so yucky that it's obvious why nobody is waving with them.

I know several Atheist Jews. That must be interesting. I know one Jew who would get angry with G_d and stand and shout at him in a very adolescent way. I'd be afraid to try it.

 

[ChristineM]

I hear Muslims say that Sharia is for everyone and Jews say the Mosaic law is just for them. Certainly there must be a debate there somewhere.

What god?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

"the 10", are part of those 613.



Yes, those... they are part of those 613 of which you just said that they only apply to the people of Israel.



How do you differentiate the "universal" ones from the "specific ones"?

Yes, the 10 are part of the 613, and were also given to Israel. That's why, for example, Gentiles are not required to observe the Shabbat. The Shabbat is a commemoration of our delivery from Slavery. Gentiles, of course, were never slaves in Egypt.

Think of two circles, a smaller circle inside a larger circle. The larger circle is the Law given to Israel at Sinai. The smaller circle is all of the universal laws that are binding on humanity. As you can see, because Jews are people we also have the universal laws within Torah law. Thus part of our Law is "don't murder, don't kill," etc. And part of our Law is just for us, i.e. "keep the Shabbat."

How do you know which laws are universal? Christians usually know because the Jews of the early church wanted Gentile believers to be righteous gentiles rather than converts to Judaism (Acts 15). The Apostles taught these universal laws to their Gentile converts. So basically if you read the Christian scriptures, you will learn the universal laws.

Jews call these laws the Noahide laws, because they were the laws obeyed by Adam and Noah. We have divided these laws into "seven laws" which are actually seven groups of laws. There are Gentiles who have no other religion than believing what Jews believe and following these seven laws. They are variously called Noahides, righteous Gentiles, or God fearers. We have a Noahide here in the forum named Rival -- you should look for him. Here are the seven (groups of) laws:

1. Do establish laws.
2. Don’t curse God.
3. Do not practice idolatry.
4. Do not engage in illicit sexuality.
5. Do not murder.
6. Do not steal.
7. Do not eat flesh from a living animal.

By groups of laws, we mean that each law is a starting point for an entire bundle of related laws. For example, take "don't murder." This at it's heart is really don't be involved in illicit bloodshed, even if it doesn't end in death. From there we understand that it bans assault even if it doesn't shed blood. I'm sure you are getting the picture of how it works. Noahides spend time studying these groups of laws.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

Okay your poll is bad. Notice there is no "Sharia and Mosaic law are only for their people"?

1. Is Sharia only for Arabs
2. Is Mosaic law only for Jews
3. Is Sharia for everyone
4. Is Mosaic law for everyone
5. Are both Sharia and Mosiac law for everyone
6. Are there are other laws specific to other people
7. Is Jesus enough law for everyone
8. None of the above
   

 

[Muffled]

I think this is a dog chasing his tale. The Bible deals with truth. The Old Covenant was that between God and the Israelites. He clearly told us through Jeremiah 31:31-34. The last covenant would not be like the former that his people would live by truth and Spirit in the New Covenant. Obeying the law in full also brought the baptism of the Holy Spirit and we witnessed that with Saul and also with David. But this way through Christ is a perfect way and no sacrifices on the high altar by a priest is necessary.
So Gods word is about people living in the presence and power of God. What is clear in religion is what the bible says is a sin, is a sin.
But people have the choice to live in sin. The bible makes it clear that sin is sin and any of those sins lead to being guilty. Judgment of the gentiles is Gods not mans. In this life especially.


Why did God forbid the eating of Pork? Unclean animals maybe? What happened is Christ taught what goes into a man by his mouth does not make him unclean but what comes out of his mouth for that comes from heart of the person where their sin comes from. Gods law goes to the good and help of man not his destruction.



To be honest there is no covenant with God in Sharia Law . The Mosaic Law is from a covenant the people of God have with him. The Christians are under a new Covenant one which is different to all the other covenants because it includes Jews and Gentiles. There is none outside those covenants and we know the truth sets free in the Covenant of Christ. The books teach these things.

I believe then you are saying Jesus who calls himself the truth was not telling the truth when He said we could eat pork.

 

[Muffled]

Why?
Is God going to send angels to bomb those nations with fire and brimstone?

Maybe nations get planes flown into buildings and terrible storms worse than any in history.

 

[Muffled]

Okay your poll is bad. Notice there is no "Sharia and Mosaic law are only for their people"?

1. Is Sharia only for Arabs
2. Is Mosaic law only for Jews
3. Is Sharia for everyone
4. Is Mosaic law for everyone
5. Are both Sharia and Mosiac law for everyone
6. Are there are other laws specific to other people
7. Is Jesus enough law for everyone
8. None of the above

I believe 1 & 2 covers that..

 

[Muffled]

You mean the countries after writing their laws misunderstand them? The word Sharia law is thrown about a lot without specifying what kind of Sharia law. It is a varying concept.

I believe the Constitution of the USA gets debated at the highest level and some called Reconstructionists think it means something different from what it says.

 

[Ellen Brown]

I believe then you are saying Jesus who calls himself the truth was not telling the truth when He said we could eat pork.

What if we had an agreement God and I and he asked me not to eat Pork? So many believers seem to see God, G_d,Allah SWT as this mean bully ordering us around. It is disappointing.

What about those who wish to walk with God and be a friend to God? Would that make a difference? Are there not enough good things to eat?

 

[Jainarayan]

He is God over all is He not?

No.

 

[Jainarayan]

terrible storms worse than any in history.

Kerala floods. But I forgot, Hindus worship false gods, so the One True God must be punishing them. Except that Christians make up 18% of the population of Kerala. They got punished too.

Hinduism (54.73%)
Islam (26.56%)
Christianity (18.38%)
Other or none (0.33%)

 

[RESOLUTION]

I believe then you are saying Jesus who calls himself the truth was not telling the truth when He said we could eat pork.

Hello Muffled,

It seems you are confused.

Sadducee and Pharisee believed opposite things. It was understood when the Messiah came he would give them the truth.
The Pharisees believed in the supernatural -- angels, demons, heaven, hell, and so on -- but the Sadducees did not.

In John 4 we see the Samaritan woman say to Jesus... 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
Clearly two different sets of beliefs but the Jews believed Christ would tell them all things.

Ritual cleanliness was a part of the system but Christ showed that what went into a mans mouth did not make him unclean but what came out of his heart.

The chapter in John deals with the new covenant of how man would serve God in Spirit and Truth.

Jesus was the truth because he never lied. He never sinned and he came to show us the way to God. Instead of judgement for sins he was the sacrifice that took away the sin.

Not sure how you came to the conclusion you did.

 

[Muffled]

What if we had an agreement God and I and he asked me not to eat Pork? So many believers seem to see God, G_d,Allah SWT as this mean bully ordering us around. It is disappointing.

What about those who wish to walk with God and be a friend to God? Would that make a difference? Are there not enough good things to eat?

I believe if God personally required you to not eat pork, then that would be what is personally good for you. Individual situations do not dictate general situations and general situation do not dictate individual situations.

 

[Muffled]

Hello Muffled,

It seems you are confused.

Sadducee and Pharisee believed opposite things. It was understood when the Messiah came he would give them the truth.
The Pharisees believed in the supernatural -- angels, demons, heaven, hell, and so on -- but the Sadducees did not.

In John 4 we see the Samaritan woman say to Jesus... 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
Clearly two different sets of beliefs but the Jews believed Christ would tell them all things.

Ritual cleanliness was a part of the system but Christ showed that what went into a mans mouth did not make him unclean but what came out of his heart.

The chapter in John deals with the new covenant of how man would serve God in Spirit and Truth.

Jesus was the truth because he never lied. He never sinned and he came to show us the way to God. Instead of judgement for sins he was the sacrifice that took away the sin.

Not sure how you came to the conclusion you did.

I believe as Christians we are not subservient to rituals. My brother-in-law got food poisoning from eating pizza. It was most likely the mushrooms on it. Mushrooms get recalled often so if you eat them and get a belly ache I would suggest getting to an emergency room. However the Bible does not have an injunction against eating mushrooms. Strangely enough we all ate the same pizza without getting sick.

 

[Muffled]

Kerala floods. But I forgot, Hindus worship false gods, so the One True God must be punishing them. Except that Christians make up 18% of the population of Kerala. They got punished too.

Hinduism (54.73%)
Islam (26.56%)
Christianity (18.38%)
Other or none (0.33%)

I wouldn't call it that cut and dried. I believe floods happen often without being a punishment. I believe there are probably Christians who believe Hindus worship false gods, but from what I can tell in the Vedas, Brahman seems to be God. That is a fairly bare essential but for 10,000 years ago a decent starting place.

 

[Muffled]

So how do you find out what "the holy spirit" thinks or affirms or whatever?

I believe the Holy Spirit is given to those who receive Jesus as Lord and Savior. Hearing the Holy Spirit often is a gift that not every Christian has and one that has only come to me in my latter years.

 

[Muffled]

No.

I believe He says that He is. I believe He is speaking the truth.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I believe the Holy Spirit is given to those who receive Jesus as Lord and Savior. Hearing the Holy Spirit often is a gift that not every Christian has and one that has only come to me in my latter years.

That's cool, but it doesn't answer my question.
Another person could say the exact same thing as you, yet come to very different conclusions.

So how do we as outsiders differentiate between your conflicting claims about what "the holy spirit" is saying?