A problem i see with religious people

[McBell]

Many of the religious people that I have met would rather be 'right' than informed...

I have found that religious people do not have a monopoly on this

 

[Vinayaka]

1. Theres a difference between "Religious people are a problem" and "A problem with religious people".
2. Go back and try to understand how the post defines "religious". Its not about "views".

Cheers.

I personally don't have a problem with religious people. But if you want to, go ahead.

 

[firedragon]

I personally don't have a problem with religious people. But if you want to, go ahead.

Read the op again.

 

[PruePhillip]

Many of the religious people that I have met would rather be 'right' than informed...

So instead of being honest and not stealing, for instance, we have to be "informed"
of class struggle; the haves and have nots; liberation theology and a deep examination
of what social economic factors forced you to take what was rightfully yours in the first
place.
And we don't have to be "right" about marital fidelity because marriage is an oppressive
patriarchal system that doesn't go back to biblical times at all and since we evolved from
animals - we ought to live like animals.

and so on, so on.
I have been informed of the brutalized world we have lived in since we gave monarchy
and religion the flick after Queen Victoria. It was going to be a wonderful world, only it
wasn't.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Read the op again.

You keep on saying this, but it really does seem from the OP that you have a serious problem with the people you call "religious."

If that's not what you meant to say, what did you mean?

 

[firedragon]

You keep on saying this, but it really does seem from the OP that you have a serious problem with the people you call "religious."

If that's not what you meant to say, what did you mean?

Yes I do have a serious problem. That's why I am asking these questions to get what people think. Objectively.

I was watching a video where a christian evangelist was questioned by a Buddhist priest who asks him "so what's your point". The Christian replies with the question "what happens when a person dies" which is one of the propagating strategies taught in evangelical seminaries.

The buddhists priests reply is a thundering slap and the mans shades fall off. That's it. That's the answer.

That's in person. Why?

I think I have given other examples as well.

The problem I have is not with religious people by default and all are just bad by nature. Anyway if what i say is not clear in sorry maybe i dont write very well.

So i shall leave it at that. Peace.

 

[firedragon]

You keep on saying this, but it really does seem from the OP that you have a serious problem with the people you call "religious."

If that's not what you meant to say, what did you mean?

Just for you to see.

 

[BSM1]

So instead of being honest and not stealing, for instance, we have to be "informed"
of class struggle; the haves and have nots; liberation theology and a deep examination
of what social economic factors forced you to take what was rightfully yours in the first
place.
And we don't have to be "right" about marital fidelity because marriage is an oppressive
patriarchal system that doesn't go back to biblical times at all and since we evolved from
animals - we ought to live like animals.

and so on, so on.
I have been informed of the brutalized world we have lived in since we gave monarchy
and religion the flick after Queen Victoria. It was going to be a wonderful world, only it
wasn't.

You are proving my point, I think.

 

[Howard Is]

My question is this. In a world where we are just typing on a keyboard, remotely connected, without any real human ties to lose face, why do we have to have such an egoistic position of "no yielding no matter what"?

That is a great question.

I think the clarity of that question is muddied by coupling it with religion.

The religious arguments are examples of a more general predisposition, which you are pointing out in your question.

I have seen myself do that routine of insinuating or even claiming knowledge I didn’t have. I have certainly seen most everyone else doing it too.

We sweep a lot of dust under the rug, moment to moment...

 

[Vinayaka]

Read the op again.

Yes, people pretend they have more knowledge than they do. Since I believe in souls and a progression in wisdom, and maturity as they head towards moksha lifetime after lifetime, I have no problem with any stage of that.

Does the grade school teacher have a problem with the immaturity of the kindergarten class, or her/his own students, or is it just an observation that they're immature?

Does the wise man join the argument with a fool who blabs about stuff he know nothing about, or does he just observe, and let it go?

 

[stvdv]

My question is this. In a world where we are just typing on a keyboard, remotely connected, without any real human ties to lose face, why do we have to have such an egoistic position of "no yielding no matter what"? Why cant we ask questions rather than pretending to penalise. Why do we have to immediately put people into a sectarian bracket and cast them out rather than following their thought pattern and analyse to make deduction?

I also see this easily happen

What is this issue with us?

IMO:

Most people goto school at early age, study till maybe age 24. Some drink lots of alcohol and party a lot. Very few do some deep introspection and study psychology and work on their own issues. So fear, irritation, anger, hate which entered in your youth will stay there, ready to show it's ugly head, whenever someone pushes a button

Then age 25 they start working; even less time to work on their own issues. Then they marry, even less time to work through their issues, by now completely suppressed emotions. Not really happy they pray for a child. God gives, or it happens just because they had sex (whatever one likes to believe). Of course now the chance to work on their own issues is totally gone. You really need money, kids are not cheap. So hard working is a must.

They give their emotional issues to their children. Who, having this example, will follow the life their parents had (more or less). Of course they are determined not to make the same mistakes as their parents. Alas ... also they get immersed in the rat race and before they know, they have their own kids and troubles and no time to solve the underlying issues.

A never ending story it seems to me.

This is how I see it.

 

[firedragon]

I also see this easily happen


IMO:

Most people goto school at early age, study till maybe age 24. Some drink lots of alcohol and party a lot. Very few do some deep introspection and study psychology and work on their own issues. So fear, irritation, anger, hate which entered in your youth will stay there, ready to show it's ugly head, whenever someone pushes a button

Then age 25 they start working; even less time to work on their own issues. Then they marry, even less time to work through their issues, by now completely suppressed emotions. Not really happy they pray for a child. God gives, or it happens just because they had sex (whatever one likes to believe). Of course now the chance to work on their own issues is totally gone. You really need money, kids are not cheap. So hard working is a must.

They give their emotional issues to their children. Who, having this example, will follow the life their parents had (more or less). Of course they are determined not to make the same mistakes as their parents. Alas ... also they get immersed in the rat race and before they know, they have their own kids and troubles and no time to solve the underlying issues.

A never ending story it seems to me.

This is how I see it.

I would have sweared if its not so public. But that was surprisingly insightful when you think about it. Thanks a lot.

 

[firedragon]

Yes, people pretend they have more knowledge than they do. Since I believe in souls and a progression in wisdom, and maturity as they head towards moksha lifetime after lifetime, I have no problem with any stage of that.

Does the grade school teacher have a problem with the immaturity of the kindergarten class, or her/his own students, or is it just an observation that they're immature?

Does the wise man join the argument with a fool who blabs about stuff he know nothing about, or does he just observe, and let it go?

You know what? I would like to discuss Hinduism with you (That is assuming you are a Hindu). I still havent figured it out. Not that it could be "figured out" just like that, i mean i havent understood it. I presume i have understood Buddhism a little but i always get Hinduism wrong.

Anyway, when we speak of education vs lack of education, some of the most profound ideas come from people who dont have formal education sometimes. I am not being discriminative. Sometimes educated people in formal institutions are so institutionalised that their framework of thinking COULD BE narrow. Not definitely, but "could be".

Thats not the point i am making at all. Lets consider Mormonism. I am clueless about Mormonism. I have not read the book fully. I have not interviewed anyone. I have not studied the religion. What is their scripture manuscript? What is the language? How many people wrote it? If its one person, who has applied some form of criticism to the text? I dont know anything. But in order to not lose face even in a forum where you dont know who in the world i am, i keep pretending i know everything. If i do that, its a seriously flawed characteristic of mine. Why would i have that attitude?

Assume you were discussing a man on trial for some crime. I say he is guilty, you say he "maybe, maybe not". Your point is "innocent until proven guilty". So i tell you "Maybe you are having an illicit affair with him" even though i dont know you from adam.

Do you understand this attitude?

Frankly, only recently my brother did a similar thing to a journalist who was speaking his mind. I was very disappointed.

Peace.

 

[nPeace]

When i say religious i don't mean Muslim, Christian or a Hindu alone. I mean all of those people who take everything and make a religion out of it. Even atheists, Buddhists, Agnostics, etc. I feel that the day Aliens ascend or if they emerge they will be the same. Some may get offended of course, but i have found this forum has people who provide very decent food for thought so here goes.

A Muslim will have a discussion with another Muslim about a particular viewpoint in theology. One person is very highly educated and the other is not but he pretends to be highly educated in theology. Very very quickly he moves to call the other person by a sectarian, habitual phrase like Munafiq or hypocrite, moderate, Zindiq or heretic, etc etc. This is the habit of being sectarian. Whenever someone is bringing some insight they immediately put them into a bracket. A sectarian bracket. But when you question them they are also very quick to say "I dont belong to a sect".

A Christian will have a discussion with another Christian or even a Muslim who maybe educated in Christian theology. One person will pretend to be very highly educated. Why?

An atheist can be the same. He too can be very religious in his sentiments. "I am scientific, you are not capable of being like me". My group is my tribe. Many atheists also pretend to be highly educated in theology.

Why do people pretend to be highly educated? Isn't it more honourable to admit that one may lack in knowledge about a particular topic they are discussing and learn something? I have seen many Christians and Muslims debate with very highly educated Atheists pretending they are too, and of course, vise versa.

One young man, a Muslim claims he has a bachelors degree in theology but doesn't know a single word of arabic or the fundamentals taught in your first semester. Doesnt get embarrassed but opts to keep pretending and call the cavalry in slamming the other. A Christian claims to be a Phd but isn't. An atheist claims "you are dumb and stupid because you are a Christian" but he doesnt know the very fundamental of physics though he claims he is very highly educated in it.

My question is this. In a world where we are just typing on a keyboard, remotely connected, without any real human ties to lose face, why do we have to have such an egoistic position of "no yielding no matter what"? Why cant we ask questions rather than pretending to penalise. Why do we have to immediately put people into a sectarian bracket and cast them out rather than following their thought pattern and analyse to make deduction?

Is that a human need? What is this need. Most of us will concede and meekly believe every whim the superiors of our tribe teaches us in our madrasas, seminaries or groups but immediately bracket out the rest or others as "those".

What is this issue with us?

We are all sinful human beings with sinful tendencies. You, me, and the whole inhabited earth.
Sometimes we don't see it in ourselves, but we see it in others.
That is the part, I think we need to work on, but we can only do so, if we learn to be humble.

I like Jesus' way. He taught powerful lessons in humility. After all, there is no one that we can say ever had Jesus' character, as presented in the Gospels.

Once, he gave an illustration, that bears this lesson out. (Luke 18:9-14)

 

[nPeace]

Be my guest...

Hey. Someone said, "Be my guess" to @firedragon, and it didn't "flip a switch". I said it, and got attitude. Hmmm. Maybe I should start a thread on "A problem I see in people who like to ask questions until blue, but turn red when asked one".

 

[Vinayaka]

You know what? I would like to discuss Hinduism with you (That is assuming you are a Hindu). I still havent figured it out. Not that it could be "figured out" just like that, i mean i havent understood it. I presume i have understood Buddhism a little but i always get Hinduism wrong.

You most certainly won't 'figure it out' by talking to me.

 

[nPeace]

There is a great lack of humility out there, and it's not just about religion. It's a general thing for people to pretend they know something they don't. The other day a guy told me playing guitar is easy and that anyone can learn quickly. As someone who's been learning guitar, I was fuming. But he kept going on and eventually I let it go. It wasn't worth arguing with him.
I think a lot of people are more worried about having the last word than what they're actually saying.

Well said. I suppose, that's why when they are put in a position to give an explanation for their claims, one tends to see another side to them.
Pretending is indeed a very common practice.

 

[stvdv]

We are all sinful human beings with sinful tendencies. You, me, and the whole inhabited earth.

Oh, please ... speak for your self, or at least say "IMHO".. You did not meet all human beings, so at best it's your guess, unless you are omniscient and omnipresent. Can be of course, I can't judge this (I am not omniscient). I let you be the judge of that.

That would mean though, we might have maybe 1 not-sinful human being without sinful tendencies (omniscient and omnipresent are biggies). And even on RF. Would be great though, don't you think? (esp. when it were you; but don't answer that, that's a sneaky question ... I read your last line; just now).

Okay, I was just in 1 of these moods, could not help myself. I do like your lines that follow .. good to be humble etc. And work on ourselves.

That 1 other line, you also can't know for sure; unless you are omniscient + omnipresent again. You can believe it, but can't be 100% sure IMO.

 

[nPeace]

Oh, please ... speak for your self, or at least say "IMHO".. You did not meet all human beings, so at best it's your guess, unless you are omniscient and omnipresent. Can be of course, I can't judge this (I am not omniscient). I let you be the judge of that.

That would mean though, we might have maybe 1 not-sinful human being without sinful tendencies (omniscient and omnipresent are biggies). And even on RF. Would be great though, don't you think? (esp. when it were you; but don't answer that, that's a sneaky question ... I read your last line; just now).

Okay, I was just in 1 of these moods, could not help myself. I do like your lines that follow .. good to be humble etc. And work on ourselves.

That 1 other line, you also can't know for sure; unless you are omniscient + omnipresent again. You can believe it, but can't be 100% sure IMO.

Oops. Sorry. According to the Bible... and my experience.

 

[stvdv]

Oops. Sorry. According to the Bible... and my experience.

I wish you a Great New Year, with lots of Light and pray that Jesus will reveal Himself to you