A question of prayer and answers

[Segev Moran]

Hi All,
I Would like to talk a bit about the concept of prayer.
As I see it, a prayer is a way for someone who believes to "talk" with God and present him with your desires, gratitude and such.
But there is something that I really resent in the form that SOME people actually believe God answers those prayers..
Lets think of a scenario:

There is an outbreak of some violent disease, taking away lives one by one, lets assume it is affecting only children.
You can only assume that the religious people will prayer and give all their mind to wishing for their little one to survive the horrific situation...
My issue is that if for some reason, their child really is cured and manages to survive the terrible situation, it will be publicly be announced and a prayer answered.. as a miracle.. as something out of the ordinary caused by a super natural thing.
I find this to be one of the worst things humans can do to there fellow beings.
Imagine you have two mothers, they both pray for the same God,
they both lead good life and try as hard as they can to be kind and loving human being.
Now imagine only one child survives...
Not only the mother who just lost her child actually believes that God didn't answer her prayers, on top of that, the other Mother "rubs it in her face" that her child was saved. That god chose her child over hers.
even if the bereavement mother thinks that "God have it's mysterious ways" or that her child is in a better place... This is one of the most abusive things that can happen.
I Know that the concept of prayer (especially for other humans well being) comes from a positive position.. but what a devastating consequences it might have!
Although the example I gave was extreme, this goes for anything else in life..
Someone prays and get financial success.. WHAT ABOUT THOSE WHO PRAYED AND DIDN'T?
Someone prays and manage to get pregnant... WHAT ABOUT THOSE WHO PRAYED AND DIDN'T?

How twisted is it that when you get what you prayed for, it is God's wish?
Imagine the pain it might cause to someone who is on the "Losing" team...
How is that any different than saying: God loves me and not You?
How is it any different than saying that god discriminates people?

to make it all worse, Imagine the fact that people actually believe that the thing that caused the problem in the first place, was God's will...

If you'll take the same scenario and strip it from the concept of God and dress it on another human...

You have two mothers, Both with child. there is a man, and he decides to kill just one of the children...
Will ANYONE in the world praise the man for "Saving" the other child's life???

Sorry.. I really can't get my mind to understand how people can actually accept this way of thinking...

I Would really appreciate your thoughts or POV so i can try and understand it better.
Regards,
And wishing everybody (No matter what God he prays or not to) a full, healthy and cheerful life

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Hi All,
I Would like to talk a bit about the concept of prayer.
As I see it, a prayer is a way for someone who believes to "talk" with God and present him with your desires, gratitude and such.
But there is something that I really resent in the form that people actually believe God answers those prayers..

Let me fix this ...

But there is something that I really resent in the form that some people actually believe God answers those prayers..​

There. Much better.

 

[Segev Moran]

Let me fix this ...

But there is something that I really resent in the form that some people actually believe God answers those prayers..​

There. Much better.

Even fixed it in the thread

 

[George-ananda]

I Would really appreciate your thoughts or POV so i can try and understand it better.

Let me start by saying, I believe in prayers and miracles. Let me also say, that I agree with a lot of what you say too.

Why prayers get seemingly answered and seemingly not answered involves things beyond our earthly vision and hence can seem random from an earthly perspective. (I believe in reincarnation and that souls have many, many types of physical experiences). Now I think a mature view is to accept whatever earthly good/bad fortune comes your way as best you can and understand some of it is beyond our earthly understanding. I think what you are describing is how less mature spiritual thinkers will view things in respect to God and prayer.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Hi All,
I Would like to talk a bit about the concept of prayer.
As I see it, a prayer is a way for someone who believes to "talk" with God and present him with your desires, gratitude and such.
But there is something that I really resent in the form that SOME people actually believe God answers those prayers..
Lets think of a scenario:

There is an outbreak of some violent disease, taking away lives one by one, lets assume it is affecting only children.
You can only assume that the religious people will prayer and give all their mind to wishing for their little one to survive the horrific situation...
My issue is that if for some reason, their child really is cured and manages to survive the terrible situation, it will be publicly be announced and a prayer answered.. as a miracle.. as something out of the ordinary caused by a super natural thing.
I find this to be one of the worst things humans can do to there fellow beings.
Imagine you have two mothers, they both pray for the same God,
they both lead good life and try as hard as they can to be kind and loving human being.
Now imagine only one child survives...
Not only the mother who just lost her child actually believes that God didn't answer her prayers, on top of that, the other Mother "rubs it in her face" that her child was saved. That god chose her child over hers.
even if the bereavement mother thinks that "God have it's mysterious ways" or that her child is in a better place... This is one of the most abusive things that can happen.
I Know that the concept of prayer (especially for other humans well being) comes from a positive position.. but what a devastating consequences it might have!
Although the example I gave was extreme, this goes for anything else in life..
Someone prays and get financial success.. WHAT ABOUT THOSE WHO PRAYED AND DIDN'T?
Someone prays and manage to get pregnant... WHAT ABOUT THOSE WHO PRAYED AND DIDN'T?

How twisted is it that when you get what you prayed for, it is God's wish?
Imagine the pain it might cause to someone who is on the "Losing" team...
How is that any different than saying: God loves me and not You?
How is it any different than saying that god discriminates people?

to make it all worse, Imagine the fact that people actually believe that the thing that caused the problem in the first place, was God's will...

If you'll take the same scenario and strip it from the concept of God and dress it on another human...

You have two mothers, Both with child. there is a man, and he decides to kill just one of the children...
Will ANYONE in the world praise the man for "Saving" the other child's life???

Sorry.. I really can't get my mind to understand how people can actually accept this way of thinking...

I Would really appreciate your thoughts or POV so i can try and understand it better.
Regards,
And wishing everybody (No matter what God he prays or not to) a full, healthy and cheerful life

I pray to remember God. That is all.

 

[Segev Moran]

Let me start by saying, I believe in prayers and miracles. Let me also say, that I agree with a lot of what you say too.

I Always love a good compromise

Although...

involves things beyond our earthly vision

Do you know anyone on this planet that can actually , without a doubt see beyond our earthly vision?

I believe in reincarnation and that souls have many, many types of physical experiences

Can you explain why you believe what you believe? what is the evidence i am missing?
I Understand that there are scriptures... I understand that there are these amazing well written books that raise great philosophical questions...
I Really try to understand what is the thing a spiritualist knows (not believes) that i don't....

how less mature spiritual thinkers will view things in respect to God and prayer.

Lol.. Thanks i guess
What do you know about my spiritual experiences?
Can you please give me an example of a one spiritual experience.. whatever....

 

[Segev Moran]

I pray to remember God. That is all.

What are you praying for for example? (If i may ask)

 

[YmirGF]

I keep praying for the big dude to drop a billion dollars in my back yard. So far, nuttin'. Skinflint. Like, seriously, what's a billion to him?

On a happy note, I did find $20.00 in my dryer one time.

 

[Segev Moran]

I keep praying for the big dude to drop a billion dollars in my back yard. So far, nuttin'. Skinflint. Like, seriously, what's a billion to him?

On a happy note, I did find $20.00 in my dryer one time.

That's Gods way of teaching you to be modest

 

[George-ananda]

Can you explain why you believe what you believe? what is the evidence i am missing?

I am a student of the paranormal, some of the evidence for my views of our existence come from evidence such as this: Evidence Link

Also I have found the eastern/Indian wisdom tradition and its adepts have delved deeper than western religion and western science into the nature of reality.

I Understand that there are scriptures... I understand that there are these amazing well written books that raise great philosophical questions...
I Really try to understand what is the thing a spiritualist knows (not believes) that i don't....

My beliefs are not based on any ancient scriptures but on modern evidence and modern spiritual teachers so I am not the one to best answer that particular question. If there were no modern evidence and teachers then my beliefs would probably be like yours.

 

[Kelloggs]

Hi All,
I Would like to talk a bit about the concept of prayer.
As I see it, a prayer is a way for someone who believes to "talk" with God and present him with your desires, gratitude and such.
But there is something that I really resent in the form that SOME people actually believe God answers those prayers..
Lets think of a scenario:

There is an outbreak of some violent disease, taking away lives one by one, lets assume it is affecting only children.
You can only assume that the religious people will prayer and give all their mind to wishing for their little one to survive the horrific situation...
My issue is that if for some reason, their child really is cured and manages to survive the terrible situation, it will be publicly be announced and a prayer answered.. as a miracle.. as something out of the ordinary caused by a super natural thing.
I find this to be one of the worst things humans can do to there fellow beings.
Imagine you have two mothers, they both pray for the same God,
they both lead good life and try as hard as they can to be kind and loving human being.
Now imagine only one child survives...
Not only the mother who just lost her child actually believes that God didn't answer her prayers, on top of that, the other Mother "rubs it in her face" that her child was saved. That god chose her child over hers.
even if the bereavement mother thinks that "God have it's mysterious ways" or that her child is in a better place... This is one of the most abusive things that can happen.
I Know that the concept of prayer (especially for other humans well being) comes from a positive position.. but what a devastating consequences it might have!
Although the example I gave was extreme, this goes for anything else in life..
Someone prays and get financial success.. WHAT ABOUT THOSE WHO PRAYED AND DIDN'T?
Someone prays and manage to get pregnant... WHAT ABOUT THOSE WHO PRAYED AND DIDN'T?

How twisted is it that when you get what you prayed for, it is God's wish?
Imagine the pain it might cause to someone who is on the "Losing" team...
How is that any different than saying: God loves me and not You?
How is it any different than saying that god discriminates people?

to make it all worse, Imagine the fact that people actually believe that the thing that caused the problem in the first place, was God's will...

If you'll take the same scenario and strip it from the concept of God and dress it on another human...

You have two mothers, Both with child. there is a man, and he decides to kill just one of the children...
Will ANYONE in the world praise the man for "Saving" the other child's life???

Sorry.. I really can't get my mind to understand how people can actually accept this way of thinking...

I Would really appreciate your thoughts or POV so i can try and understand it better.
Regards,
And wishing everybody (No matter what God he prays or not to) a full, healthy and cheerful life

In spite of your "Atheistic" stance, I find these sentences to be within "Theistic" scopes

 

[interminable]

Hi All,
I Would like to talk a bit about the concept of prayer.
As I see it, a prayer is a way for someone who believes to "talk" with God and present him with your desires, gratitude and such.
But there is something that I really resent in the form that SOME people actually believe God answers those prayers..
Lets think of a scenario:

There is an outbreak of some violent disease, taking away lives one by one, lets assume it is affecting only children.
You can only assume that the religious people will prayer and give all their mind to wishing for their little one to survive the horrific situation...
My issue is that if for some reason, their child really is cured and manages to survive the terrible situation, it will be publicly be announced and a prayer answered.. as a miracle.. as something out of the ordinary caused by a super natural thing.
I find this to be one of the worst things humans can do to there fellow beings.
Imagine you have two mothers, they both pray for the same God,
they both lead good life and try as hard as they can to be kind and loving human being.
Now imagine only one child survives...
Not only the mother who just lost her child actually believes that God didn't answer her prayers, on top of that, the other Mother "rubs it in her face" that her child was saved. That god chose her child over hers.
even if the bereavement mother thinks that "God have it's mysterious ways" or that her child is in a better place... This is one of the most abusive things that can happen.
I Know that the concept of prayer (especially for other humans well being) comes from a positive position.. but what a devastating consequences it might have!
Although the example I gave was extreme, this goes for anything else in life..
Someone prays and get financial success.. WHAT ABOUT THOSE WHO PRAYED AND DIDN'T?
Someone prays and manage to get pregnant... WHAT ABOUT THOSE WHO PRAYED AND DIDN'T?

How twisted is it that when you get what you prayed for, it is God's wish?
Imagine the pain it might cause to someone who is on the "Losing" team...
How is that any different than saying: God loves me and not You?
How is it any different than saying that god discriminates people?

to make it all worse, Imagine the fact that people actually believe that the thing that caused the problem in the first place, was God's will...

If you'll take the same scenario and strip it from the concept of God and dress it on another human...

You have two mothers, Both with child. there is a man, and he decides to kill just one of the children...
Will ANYONE in the world praise the man for "Saving" the other child's life???

Sorry.. I really can't get my mind to understand how people can actually accept this way of thinking...

I Would really appreciate your thoughts or POV so i can try and understand it better.
Regards,
And wishing everybody (No matter what God he prays or not to) a full, healthy and cheerful life

We are slaves
Our duty is to pray and ask a God that has created us.
We shouldn't expect god to answer all of our prayers because most of them can't be answered in this carnal world
Imagine everyone asks god to be a king or president
Can god answer their prayers?? Not

In our religion every prayer has an answer and god won't leave them without response
Some of them are answered
Some of them will prevent future diseases and problems
Some of them will be answered in the day of judgement

Even we have a tradition that says
A slave in the day of judgement will wish that none of his prayers were answered

Besides please consider that some people pray just because to ask god to solve their problems
But mystics pray just because god is the only existence that should be prayed for and deserved to be asked

 

[12jtartar]

Segev Moran,
I really love your reasoning, you definitely have discernment.
Please allow me to add a little to your thinking.
I believe the concept of Pajonism, is applicable here. Most prayers are not answered by God actually changing the things that are happening, but when you pray, God, by His Holy Spirit, will help you to make the best possible decision you can at that time.
If something very important, that can influence many people takes place, in this case God might actually influence the outcome of something.
The reason that one person seems to have their prayers answered and another does not, is what is answered at Ecclesiastes 9:11, where the Holy Scriptures tell us that time and chance happens to all of us.
The very best thing about prayer is; God sees that you care, and He will bless the ones praying, even if the thing prayed for does not happen.
One very important thing to remember, at this time Satan is the god of this world, 2Corinthians 4:3,4, John 12:31, 16:11, Revelation 12:9, 1John 5:19.

 

[Segev Moran]

I am a student of the paranormal, some of the evidence for my views of our existence come from evidence such as this: Evidence Link

Also I have found the eastern/Indian wisdom tradition and its adepts have delved deeper than western religion and western science into the nature of reality.

My beliefs are not based on any ancient scriptures but on modern evidence and modern spiritual teachers so I am not the one to best answer that particular question. If there were no modern evidence and teachers then my beliefs would probably be like yours.

I See your point.. But do you think that a big part of what we today spiritual or super natural is at the most, a phenomena we just can't really explain yet?
Take the Ouija board for example...
I Come from a very "spiritual" family...
I My self learned and toyed with enormousness amount of supernatural methods and experiments.. (Ouija is among them)... but at the end of it.. almost every experience i used to believe as super natural, turned out to be a natural thing that we just didn't know to explain...
I Believe there are people who can analyze situations much better than others.. they can read minor signs that allows them to interpret things you might otherwise think were "Given" to them from an external source...
If you want to call these phenomenons supernatural.. Its up to you...
What i talk about is something else.. I am talking about God.. a God that answers prayers..Not the power of auto suggestion... Not positive thinking, rather an actual entity that answers people's prayers based on whatever logic it have..
That's a whole different issue then unexplained phenomena.
See this list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prizes_for_evidence_of_the_paranormal

Is it fair to assume that if there anywhere in the planet a person that really have supernatural abilities, he could have proved it?
And if not, this means the abilities are nothing more than statistics to he's favor?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

On a happy note, I did find $20.00 in my dryer one time.

That's mine!

PS How much is that in £s? Probably not much by now.

 

[YmirGF]

That's mine!

PS How much is that in £s? Probably not much by now.

Since it was 30 years ago... prolly about £9

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Since it was 30 years ago... prolly about £9

Yeah, but what about the compound interest? It's probably about a million quid by now. But £9 will do.

 

[Segev Moran]

In spite of your "Atheistic" stance, I find these sentences to be within "Theistic" scopes

Yep.. I Know.. that's part of my problem.. For some reason, Theists claim ownership about statements like: I Want humans to be kind and beneficial to one another..

But it is well know that eventually, Humans came up with those understandings.. and not a God or an Angel or spirit or divine energy or whatever

 

[Quintessence]

Issues like this look very different when one isn't a a classical monotheist of a particular Abrahamic variety. "Prayer" (if the term is used at all) is understood quite differently, as are the gods. On the whole, it's been my impression that contemporary (and historical) Pagans simply do not have the same expectations about "prayer" or the gods that you see amongst some classical monotheists. The gods are not cosmic sugar daddies whose purpose is to cater to human wants and needs, for example. The gods I worship in particular don't give a flying flip about humans, and probably aren't even aware of humans at all. Instead, "prayers" in my tradition are better termed blessings - it's giving thanks to and celebrating the gods. But although I don't really get classical monotheist theology either, I do get what it's root purpose is, and that's to bring meaning to those people's lives through stories. The stories they tell work for them, and they don't need to work for me or everyone else.

 

[Segev Moran]

We are slaves

Not me (Not of God at least)

Our duty is to pray and ask a God that has created us.

If you believe that God created you and you owe him everything for this, feel free.. but that doesn't mean it is so...

We shouldn't expect god to answer all of our prayers because most of them can't be answered in this carnal world

How about a mother praying for her daughter not to die of cancer?
How is that outside of this carnal world?

Imagine everyone asks god to be a king or president
Can god answer their prayers?? Not

See above please...

In our religion every prayer has an answer and god won't leave them without response
Some of them are answered
Some of them will prevent future diseases and problems
Some of them will be answered in the day of judgement

Or in other words.. We don't really know ?
If a prayer is just a matter of raising a flag.. like.. God.. not asking anything.. but please note my child is sick..
And not expecting anything in return, then what is the point of the prayer?
Again.. if this is one's way to cope with something he cannot cope otherwise.. Great..
But you can't teach people that it works.. you can't tell people they SHOULD pray..

Besides please consider that some people pray just because to ask god to solve their problems
But mystics pray just because god is the only existence that should be prayed for and deserved to be asked

Don't you think this kind of renders all humans obsolete?
When a doctor saves someone's life.. it wasn't God.. it was the doctor...
When a fireman rescue a small child from the wracks.. it wasn't God, It was the fireman..
If someone died from a disease and another survived the exact same disease, its because we are yet to fully understand what caused A to survive or B not to... it doesn't mean God decided he wants to spare A's life...