A Question to 'Anti-Zionists'

[xkatz]

I get that not everyone is going to agree with Israeli gov't and it's policy, for good reasons. But Zionism at it's core is basically more or less self-determination for Jews. So unless you are a hardcore Marxist or anti-nationalist, why do other peoples have (or should have) the right to self-determination and nationhood if they want, but Jews don't?

 

[LuisDantas]

In my case, I am indeed an anti-nationalist.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Anti-jewish attitudes and biases have been so deeply ingrained in most societies for so long, that most people are completely unaware that they even have them.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I get that not everyone is going to agree with Israeli gov't and it's policy, for good reasons. But Zionism at it's core is basically more or less self-determination for Jews. So unless you are a hardcore Marxist or anti-nationalist, why do other peoples have (or should have) the right to self-determination and nationhood if they want, but Jews don't?

I'm not sure what a hardcore Marxist is, but both Leninists and Trotskyists traditionally defended "The Right of Nations to Self Determination" while simultaneously being internationalists.

If I recall correctly, Lenin's booklet by that name was actually quite good.

 

[xkatz]

I'm not sure what a hardcore Marxist is, but both Leninists and Trotskyists traditionally defended "The Right of Nations to Self Determination" while simultaneously being internationalists.

Self-proclaimed Marxists/Communists I have spoken to emphasize heavily on internationalism to the point of being opposed to nationalism in it's original context.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Self-proclaimed Marxists/Communists I have spoken to emphasize heavily on internationalism to the point of being opposed to nationalism in it's original context.

I can only speak to the Leninist/Trotskyist position, which I personally support. I also support the right of Palestinians to self determination.

 

[columbus]

I get that not everyone is going to agree with Israeli gov't and it's policy, for good reasons. But Zionism at it's core is basically more or less self-determination for Jews. So unless you are a hardcore Marxist or anti-nationalist, why do other peoples have (or should have) the right to self-determination and nationhood if they want, but Jews don't?

Because Jews aren't that special. The world is littered with tribal people who would like sovereignty over their ancient homeland. Think Iroquois or Kurd, I'm sure there are anthropologists on RF who could list and correctly spell a couple hundred of them.

Here is the timeline in a few sentences: A group of violent nomads took over Palestine about 4 millennia ago, killing or oppressing the inhabitants. About 2 millennia ago a people with even better military tools and techniques drove out the remnants of that people. By the 1940's the descendants of those people wanted a country of their own, and were still attached to the environs of Jerusalem. But other people had lived there for the intervening millennia. Neither people is good at sharing.

This has lead to violence and war intractable. But it isn't new. Imagine what would happen if the Iroquois Nation went to the UN demanding that the US government honor all the treaties made.

My question to USonian Zionists is why do only Jews get their "country" back, and not every other people who have been the victims of genocidal policies?

Tom

 

[Tarheeler]

My question to USonian Zionists is why do only Jews get their "country" back, and not every other people who have been the victims of genocidal policies?

Why do you assume that we would believe that they shouldn't have the right to self-determination?

 

[xkatz]

Because Jews aren't that special.

So the Portuguese, Spanish, French, Italians, English, Dutch, Germans, Danish, Polish, Czechs, Swedish, Finnish, Lithuanians, Latvians, Russians, Estonians, Hungarians, Slovenes, Slovaks, Serbs, Croats, Hellenes, Turks, Armenians, Georgians, Arabs, Persians, Kurds, Maghrebis, Ethiopians, Somalians, Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Turkmens, Muslim Indians, Bengalis, Nepalese, Burmese, Thai, Cambodians, Vietnamese, Fillipino, Malay, Chinese, Mongolians, Korean, Japanese, etc. all have the right to have their own nation-states b/c they are "more special"?

 

[columbus]

Why do you assume that we would believe that they shouldn't have the right to self-determination?

If you do fine. But I don't see anyone offering UN resolutions or billions of dollars worth of weapons.

I don't think you do. Give me a reason to believe that you support the right of every tribe going back 2000 years the same rights you feel Jewish people have.

Tom

 

[columbus]

So the Portuguese, Spanish, French, Italians, English, Dutch, Germans, Danish, Polish, Czechs, Swedish, Finnish, Lithuanians, Latvians, Russians, Estonians, Hungarians, Slovenes, Slovaks, Serbs, Croats, Hellenes, Turks, Armenians, Georgians, Arabs, Persians, Kurds, Maghrebis, Ethiopians, Somalians, Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Turkmens, Muslim Indians, Bengalis, Nepalese, Burmese, Thai, Cambodians, Vietnamese, Fillipino, Malay, Chinese, Mongolians, Korean, Japanese, etc. all have the right to have their own nation-states b/c they are "more special"?

Let's start at your beginning. Who is contesting the existence of Portugal?

Tom

 

[xkatz]

Let's start at your beginning. Who is contesting the existence of Portugal?

Tom

No one is. That's the point. No one is protesting that Portugal is a nation with a particular predominate culture and identity. Yet Israel, G-d forbid those Jews want some self-determination of their own :faint:

 

[Tarheeler]

If you do fine. But I don't see anyone offering UN resolutions or billions of dollars worth of weapons.

I don't think you do. Give me a reason to believe that you support the right of every tribe going back 2000 years the same rights you feel Jewish people have.

Tom

Seems like nothing more than assumptions based on gross ignorance.

If you think that the entire premise of the modern state of Israel is based on a religious claim, then you're just as delusional as the nut jobs looking to "purify" the Middle East. I, and most of the Zionist I know, support not only a homeland for the Jewish people, but the right of people to have a state of their own where they can govern themselves and live free of harassment.

 

[columbus]

No one is. That's the point. No one is protesting that Portugal is a nation with a particular predominate culture and identity. Yet Israel, G-d forbid those Jews want some self-determination of their own :faint:

Nobody is protesting that. (Well, OK, not many people).
The problem is where and how. The Jews lost the place thousands of years ago. That bites, but it was a long time ago. That piece of real estate is being contested by the people who lived there since. That is very different from Portugal.

Tom

 

[columbus]

Seems like nothing more than assumptions based on gross ignorance.

If you think that the entire premise of the modern state of Israel is based on a religious claim, then you're just as delusional as the nut jobs looking to "purify" the Middle East. I, and most of the Zionist I know, support not only a homeland for the Jewish people, but the right of people to have a state of their own where they can govern themselves and live free of harassment.

My point was that only the Jewish people who want sovereignty over a place that has been inhabited by others for millennia get the kind of support Zionists get.

Why don't the Iroquois? They actually have treaties signed by the US government.

Tom

 

[ametist]

Different from how OP has presented the case maybe but; zion or israel are some hard concepts to grasp. They have spiritual sides to it. I object to zionism because many people arent really listenning from their religious authorities and they are artifically 'pushing' for things and this is causing a disturbance. Such matters are really delicate and some people knowingly or unknowingly ignoring that fact.
On the other hand, it is ok for any group of people to form a religious, a single race based, all girls or all glass wearing people states if this is what they want and what they think will be real good, as long as they obey international laws.

 

[CMike]

Because Jews aren't that special. The world is littered with tribal people who would like sovereignty over their ancient homeland. Think Iroquois or Kurd, I'm sure there are anthropologists on RF who could list and correctly spell a couple hundred of them.

Here is the timeline in a few sentences: A group of violent nomads took over Palestine about 4 millennia ago, killing or oppressing the inhabitants. About 2 millennia ago a people with even better military tools and techniques drove out the remnants of that people. By the 1940's the descendants of those people wanted a country of their own, and were still attached to the environs of Jerusalem. But other people had lived there for the intervening millennia. Neither people is good at sharing.

This has lead to violence and war intractable. But it isn't new. Imagine what would happen if the Iroquois Nation went to the UN demanding that the US government honor all the treaties made.

My question to USonian Zionists is why do only Jews get their "country" back, and not every other people who have been the victims of genocidal policies?

Tom

There are numerous christian countries.

There are numerous muslim country.

There is only one itty bitty little jewish state.

And yet the "world" think that jews don't have a right to their own state.

 

[metis]

Anti-jewish attitudes and biases have been so deeply ingrained in most societies for so long, that most people are completely unaware that they even have them.

My oldest daughter mentioned that yesterday as she heard two people mention recently that they got a good bargain on what they bought because they "Jewed him down".

 

[columbus]

There are numerous christian countries.

There are numerous muslim country.

There is only one itty bitty little jewish state.

And yet the "world" think that jews don't have a right to their own state.

You should explain to tarheeler that this is about religion. He doesn't think it is.

But explain to me why the Iroquois shouldn't have their homeland back?

To.

 

[Tarheeler]

My point was that only the Jewish people who want sovereignty over a place that has been inhabited by others for millennia get the kind of support Zionists get.

Why don't the Iroquois? They actually have treaties signed by the US government.

Tom

And a beautiful red herring it is.

You ask why we don't support other nations having self-determination, and then shift to funding. Good stuff indeed. I had though about actually answering it too, but it would require a fairly decent history lesson that I just don't have the patience to give you.