A Question to 'Anti-Zionists'

[Bunyip]

I have no doubt you believe so.

Yes. That is how debates and discussions work, people have different views - some of which you will disagree with. You can disagree and remain polite.

 

[xkatz]

Nobody is protesting that. (Well, OK, not many people).
The problem is where and how. The Jews lost the place thousands of years ago. That bites, but it was a long time ago. That piece of real estate is being contested by the people who lived there since. That is very different from Portugal.

Tom

And some of it is back in control of Jewish people again. There are native Israeli Jews and they have built their own infrastructure. So whether you agree with it or not, they're there.

However, I am talking specifically about Zionism, which is fundamentally a Jewish movement for self-determination. Not calling out people, but I see many on this forum and other places basically calling Zionism the worst thing in the world. They say that they don't hate Jews, but hate Zionism. Basically, what you're saying is, "I don't hate Jews, but I hate that they want to have their own country.", and then they say that Jews have the audacity to play the "anti-Semite card". It would be one thing to say that they hate the Israeli gov't, which is understandable; but to say that Zionism itself is evil and that Zionist control the world is another thing altogether*.

*(Unless you're someone whose against nationalism altogether)

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The assumption in the OP is that other faiths have this 'right' to self determination and nationhood - but the fact is that they don't.

Good point. It really is a mess.

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm asking questions because Judaism is defined as an ethno-religion. You're a convert and so if you make aliyah, you'd be welcomed as a citizen and viewed as returning to your "homeland", right? Ethnic nationalism is usually defined as people having blood ties to a land having their own land.

Yes, that is true. Ethnic nationalism is largely defined by an accident of birth.

And gender is usually defined by an accident of birth as well.

I can't really fault the Jewish People for realizing that people can and should use their power to correct those circunstances when they find people who are certain enough of what they want, St. Frank.

Not anymore than I can fault you for doing the same.

Of course, I can and do expect people to stand for their choices and accept to pay the due prices in both cases. But that may happen and that does happen.

Sorry if the comparison shocks or displeases you somehow. I hope and trust that it will not, and I sincerely do find it fair, but I have been wrong before.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes, that is true. Ethnic nationalism is largely defined by an accident of birth.

And gender is usually defined by an accident of birth as well.

I can't really fault the Jewish People for realizing that people can and should use their power to correct those circunstances when they find people who are certain enough of what they want, St. Frank.

Not anyone than I can fault you for doing the same.

Of course, I can and do expect people to stand for their choices and accept to pay the due prices in both cases. But that may happen and that does happen.

Sorry if the comparison shocks or displeases you somehow. I hope and trust that it will not, and I sincerely do find it fair, but I have been wrong before.

You're comparing Judaism to transsexualism? Now I've seen it all. Lol.

 

[Tarheeler]

I'm asking questions because Judaism is defined as an ethno-religion. You're a convert and so if you make aliyah, you'd be welcomed as a citizen and viewed as returning to your "homeland", right? Ethnic nationalism is usually defined as people having blood ties to a land having their own land.

The issue of how converts to Judaism are accepted into the Jewish people has been discussed in many threads, and your comment ignores the entire history of the creation of the modern states of Israel, Jordan, and Egypt and the political underpinnings of this conflict.

 

[ametist]

What on earth are you babbling about? Do you think that every Jew that steps foot in Israel is given land freshly ripped from some poor Arab?

This is truly getting ******* ridiculous.

So, this is not at the root of the new settlements problem that israel built on west bank. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The issue of how converts to Judaism are accepted into the Jewish people has been discussed in many threads, and your comment ignores the entire history of the creation of the modern states of Israel, Jordan, and Egypt and the political underpinnings of this conflict.

You're missing the point. You can't say this isn't really about religion, since anyone can convert to Judaism and be considered a full-fledged Jew. It's like if I moved to China and became a citizen, I'm not all of a sudden an ethnic (genetic) Chinese person. But somehow if you convert to Judaism, you're a Semite and your ancestry is wiped clean? I'm sorry, but this doesn't make sense.

 

[xkatz]

Why don't the Iroquois? They actually have treaties signed by the US government.

Tom

Because there are only 80,000 of them...?

 

[columbus]

No, the OP is certainly not what you're attempting to discuss.

I get that not everyone is going to agree with Israeli gov't and it's policy, for good reasons. But Zionism at it's core is basically more or less self-determination for Jews. So unless you are a hardcore Marxist or anti-nationalist, why do other peoples have (or should have) the right to self-determination and nationhood if they want, but Jews don't?

There is the OP. That is what I'm talking about.

I like Israel. It's liberal and multicultural and has UHC. Zionists took a bit of desert and made it bloom.
I don't have any problem with Judaism, now that y'all aren't insisting on my execution by stoning. But I am talking about the fact that many ancient tribes might like their homeland back. I don't think Jewish people have a better claim than many others. So I don't think Israel, as conceived in the 20th century, is worth this much death and destruction.

Tom

 

[LuisDantas]

They say that they don't hate Jews, but hate Zionism. Basically, what you're saying is, "I don't hate Jews, but I hate that they want to have their own country.", and then they say that Jews have the audacity to play the "anti-Semite card". It would be one thing to say that they hate the Israeli gov't, which is understandable; but to say that Zionism itself is evil and that Zionist control the world is another thing altogether*.

*(Unless you're someone whose against nationalism altogether)

In my case, the distinction between Zionism as an ideal and Zionism as the justification for war that may well have no hope of ever ending is an important one to make.

Despite being an anti-nationalist (Brazilians generally are very nationalistic, but our history makes that a very ironic reality indeed), I do see nothing wrong and a lot admirable in the idea of Israel as a self-made Jewish State. But at some point one has to ask how many more deaths and how much more hate and despair are to be allowed on behalf of the idea of self-determination.

I really wonder how the average Israeli answers those questions.

 

[LuisDantas]

You're comparing Judaism to transsexualism? Now I've seen it all. Lol.

Yes, I am, and I can not at all fault you for being surprised by that. I guess I am as well.

All the same, do you understand why I did it? Do you agree?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes, I am, and I can not at all fault you for being surprised by that. I guess I am as well.

All the same, do you understand why I did it? Do you agree?

Lets just say that your analogy falls a bit flat to me.

 

[Tarheeler]

I'm sorry, but this doesn't make sense.

Ok.

It's been discussed ad nauseam in many different threads, and I'm not wasting my time trying to further do so tonight.

 

[xkatz]

By the perspective of the Jewish People we can only look like a wild bunch of unreliable barbarians (although I doubt I even know anyone who heard that said by any of you). But I guess that comes with, you know, being a bunch of unreliable barbarians with delusions of grandeur. And if it does not, it should.

Every group has its barbarians, but that doesn't mean that every person in said group is a barbarian.

 

[LuisDantas]

You're missing the point. You can't say this isn't really about religion, since anyone can convert to Judaism and be considered a full-fledged Jew. It's like if I moved to China and became a citizen, I'm not all of a sudden an ethnic (genetic) Chinese person. But somehow if you convert to Judaism, you're a Semite and your ancestry is wiped clean? I'm sorry, but this doesn't make sense.

It does not make any genetic sense. But it makes lots of anthropological sense.

Conversion to Judaism is possible to anyone, hypothetically, but not everyone is willing to accept the duties and consequences. And it does come with a fair amount of both.

I fail to see how it would be preferable for the Jewish People to be, in effect, racists.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Ok.

It's been discussed ad nauseam in many different threads, and I'm not wasting my time trying to further do so tonight.

Fair enough.

It's just that this matter is not clearly defined. If anyone can become a Jew, then it really is about religion and religious traditions and not so much about ethnicity. So that would make Zionism a form of religious nationalism since you would have to say that the Holy Land is where Judaism was born but not where all Jews can trace their family lines.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It does not make any genetic sense. But it makes lots of anthropological sense.

Conversion to Judaism is possible to anyone, hypothetically, but not everyone is willing to accept the duties and consequences. And it does come with a fair amount of both.

I fail to see how it would be preferable for the Jewish People to be, in effect, racists.

The problem is that it makes, imo, Zionism fall apart if it really is a matter of religion.

 

[LuisDantas]

Every group has its barbarians, but that doesn't mean that every person in said group is a barbarian.

It comes pretty close, though. Particularly in places such as the Brazilian favelas and, I assume, Gaza.

 

[xkatz]

But at some point one has to ask how many more deaths and how much more hate and despair are to be allowed on behalf of the idea of self-determination.

A fair question to ask, but I would say such things have more to do with the gov't policies.

I really wonder how the average Israeli answers those questions.

The problem is every Israeli thinks there a politician with all the answers.