A Question to Christians.

[Apathy]

What is your view on apostasy?

 

[Biblestudent_007]

The same as it says in the dictionary.

 

[Apathy]

Not what I asked.

 

[Mister Emu]

Not good...

 

[Biblestudent_007]

Well, in that case, apostasy is renouncing your faith and defecting/leaving the established institution of the Church.

 

[smoothcriminal12]

Repugnant.

 

[Pegg]

it is very bad to become an apostate.

Judas became an apostate, Satan became and apostate... very bad to turn against God and fight him. It is blasphemy to do so and it is the sin from which there is no forgiveness.

“Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven.” (Matthew 12:31)

 

[uu_sage]

To me, faith and doubt compliment each other. Doubt is not in conflict with faith. The opposite of faith is fear. God created us as relational, sexual, thinking and spiritual being. Reason and faith are gifts of God. Theology talks about our relationship with God and our place in the created order and reason helps us to understand natural law. Excommunication is un-Christ like and is contrary to God's love.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Apostasy, in the sense of rebelling against God? Yeah, pretty bad. I mean, to accept that there is a God, and then rebel against Him. Yeah, He wouldn't like that too much, seeing as He has infinite love for that person, and then for them to reject Him would cause Him great anguish and sorrow. And He has to go through this every day. Not that it really affects him, seeing as He's omnipotent and can easily extinguish such emotions. Or does it affect Him? Who knows.

 

[Vile Atheist]

Apostasy, in the sense of rebelling against God? Yeah, pretty bad. I mean, to accept that there is a God, and then rebel against Him. Yeah, He wouldn't like that too much, seeing as He has infinite love for that person, and then for them to reject Him would cause Him great anguish and sorrow. And He has to go through this every day. Not that it really affects him, seeing as He's omnipotent and can easily extinguish such emotions. Or does it affect Him? Who knows.

If God has infinite love for people, what can be the justification for throwing someone in hell for supposedly being an apostate (or any other sin)? Would you eternally torture someone you love, no matter what they've done to you?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

If God has infinite love for people, what can be the justification for throwing someone in hell for supposedly being an apostate (or any other sin)? Would you eternally torture someone you love, no matter what they've done to you?

No, there will not be eternal torture. The Bible speaks of being thrown into a "lake of fire", and that the individual will experience a "second death". A "second death" does not mean eternal torment. It is the extermination of the existence of an individual.

Even then, not that many people will get to this stage. The Bible speaks of two resurrections, the first of believers, and the second of all the dead. I believe here that the world will be given a second chance. After all, why would God resurrect all of the non-believers, only to send them back to death? No, they are resurrected for Judgement. This could mean that the non-believers have a second chance to repent, and those that refuse even then will be thrown into the lake of fire. It could also mean that unlike believers, who are automatically washed clean because of Christ, the non-believers will be judged by God according to his/her deeds, and will be granted entrance to heaven depending on the deeds they have done. Those who are not granted access will not suffer eternal torment, but instead will be separated from God and extinguished.

Concerning Satan and his fallen angels, however, there are multiple Biblical passages which support that they will suffer eternal torment for the atrocities they have committed.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

If you see apostacy as leaving a particular Denomination, I have no problem with it.
I can even see moving from one faith in God to another faith in God, as a reasonable possibility.
I am not sure God is that concerned about which path we chose to come to him.
I am sure God has a greater interest in how we live our lives and inter relate with others, than which faith or none that we follow.

When you look at the membership lists and committee lists
God seems to be at the head of all faiths.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

If you see apostacy as leaving a particular Denomination, I have no problem with it.
I can even see moving from one faith in God to another faith in God, as a reasonable possibility.
I am not sure God is that concerned about which path we chose to come to him.
I am sure God has a greater interest in how we live our lives and inter relate with others, than which faith or none that we follow.

When you look at the membership lists and committee lists
God seems to be at the head of all faiths.

I have no problems with these things either. But don't you agree that God would not be happy with apostasy in the sense of those that accept His existence, yet choose to rebel against Him?

 

[Greyn]

If God has infinite love for people, what can be the justification for throwing someone in hell for supposedly being an apostate (or any other sin)? Would you eternally torture someone you love, no matter what they've done to you?

If they chose that path, it would be out of my hands. Really, it happens all the time. You try to give 110% to an individual and they flat out reject your efforts; even if it is ultimately in their best interest.

 

[Vile Atheist]

No, there will not be eternal torture. The Bible speaks of being thrown into a "lake of fire", and that the individual will experience a "second death". A "second death" does not mean eternal torment. It is the extermination of the existence of an individual.

Even then, not that many people will get to this stage. The Bible speaks of two resurrections, the first of believers, and the second of all the dead. I believe here that the world will be given a second chance. After all, why would God resurrect all of the non-believers, only to send them back to death? No, they are resurrected for Judgement. This could mean that the non-believers have a second chance to repent, and those that refuse even then will be thrown into the lake of fire. It could also mean that unlike believers, who are automatically washed clean because of Christ, the non-believers will be judged by God according to his/her deeds, and will be granted entrance to heaven depending on the deeds they have done. Those who are not granted access will not suffer eternal torment, but instead will be separated from God and extinguished.

Concerning Satan and his fallen angels, however, there are multiple Biblical passages which support that they will suffer eternal torment for the atrocities they have committed.

Fair enough. That is your interpretation and we'll go by it. (Even though I don't really agree with your views, I'm finding it very easy to respect you already).

Concerning Satan and his fallen angels, in your mind, what actions could Satan possibly do that justify being tortured for an eternity? In your opinion, do you think an infinite punishment for a finite crime (as brutal as it may be) is fair and just and fitting of an infinitely-loving God?

If they chose that path, it would be out of my hands. Really, it happens all the time. You try to give 110% to an individual and they flat out reject your efforts; even if it is ultimately in their best interest.

Even so, what action - to you - would justify receiving an eternal punishment? Would apostasy be the "ultimate sin" that would provoke this?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Fair enough. That is your interpretation and we'll go by it. (Even though I don't really agree with your views, I'm finding it very easy to respect you already).

Thank you.

Concerning Satan and his fallen angels, in your mind, what actions could Satan possibly do that justify being tortured for an eternity? In your opinion, do you think an infinite punishment for a finite crime (as brutal as it may be) is fair and just and fitting of an infinitely-loving God?

Satan and his fallen angels will have been the cause for many or if not all of those who are condemned to the lake of fire. Satan is an eternal being and many can see this as justification for an eternal punishment. Satan has ruined many, many lives as well as led them away from God. And who says that what he has done is considered a "finite" sin? Presumably living in the direct presence of God, Satan rebelled against Him and brought many angels down with him. He then went and corrupted the human race, bringing even more people down with him, and becoming a being of evil and malice. To rebel against God, to corrupt humanity, to corrupt many of the angels, leading an entire army of fallen angels against God, trying to overthrow Him. We cannot ever really know what is considered a "finite" and an "infinite" sin. But I believe that corrupting humanity, the glory of God's creation, can be considered an eternal sin, and causing God to have to come down in human form and sacrifice Himself in order to absolve our sins can also be seen as an eternal sin, for in essence forcing God to have to go through torture and punishment in a human body.

Another interpretation is that Satan may in fact just be thrown into the lake of fire and extinguished with the rest of us, and another interpretation would state that "eternity" is a metaphor trying to describe the immense time Satan and his fallen angels will have to be punished, which could be billions upon billions of years.

 

[Vile Atheist]

Thank you.

Satan and his fallen angels will have been the cause for many or if not all of those who are condemned to the lake of fire. Satan is an eternal being and many can see this as justification for an eternal punishment. Satan has ruined many, many lives as well as led them away from God. And who says that what he has done is considered a "finite" sin? Presumably living in the direct presence of God, Satan rebelled against Him and brought many angels down with him. He then went and corrupted the human race, bringing even more people down with him, and becoming a being of evil and malice. To rebel against God, to corrupt humanity, to corrupt many of the angels, leading an entire army of fallen angels against God, trying to overthrow Him. We cannot ever really know what is considered a "finite" and an "infinite" sin. But I believe that corrupting humanity, the glory of God's creation, can be considered an eternal sin, and causing God to have to come down in human form and sacrifice Himself in order to absolve our sins can also be seen as an eternal sin, for in essence forcing God to have to go through torture and punishment in a human body.

Another interpretation is that Satan may in fact just be thrown into the lake of fire and extinguished with the rest of us, and another interpretation would state that "eternity" is a metaphor trying to describe the immense time Satan and his fallen angels will have to be punished, which could be billions upon billions of years.

So then with that in mind, what's the justification for God punishing someone at all if it's all Satan's fault? If we have free will and the ability to choose our own path, then why punish Satan? If we have free will, then it isn't Satan's fault if we sin, it's our own. If God is omnipotent, how can God be forced to do anything? If God is omniscient, shouldn't he have seen Satan coming?

How can corrupting humans be considered an infinite sin when the human species has only existed for a short amount of time, relative to the age of the universe? Instead of allowing Satan to corrupt humans, and instead of punishing Satan for all eternity, why doesn't God just simply will Satan and evil out of existence?

If we are going by a quasi-literal interpretation of Genesis, if God created the Garden of Eden, he must have also created the snake that corrupted the humans inside. By that argument, God is responsible for creating a being that he knew would corrupt humans. Even by a more figurative interpretation, God created flawed humans that have the ability to be corrupted and sin.

By that point, why would any other being deserve eternal torture (including Satan), for whatever they do, including apostasy or whatever horrific sin you like, when God created them flawed to begin with? Why would God create beings with a remarkable hindrance towards obeying his law, and then punish them when they can't or are unwilling to follow his law?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

So then with that in mind, what's the justification for God punishing someone at all if it's all Satan's fault? If we have free will and the ability to choose our own path, then why punish Satan? If we have free will, then it isn't Satan's fault if we sin, it's our own. If God is omnipotent, how can God be forced to do anything? If God is omniscient, shouldn't he have seen Satan coming?

It is partly Satan's fault for tempting us, but it is ultimately up to us to follow his temptations or resist them. God saw Satan coming, indeed, and Satan probably fit with His plan, even if Satan did not know it. Humanity would not find it difficult to worship a God if they knew He existed. So God allowed Satan to lead them astray, to see who would stay true to HIm. This is then encompassed by the gift of free will that God has given to both humanity and his angels.

How can corrupting humans be considered an infinite sin when the human species has only existed for a short amount of time, relative to the age of the universe? Instead of allowing Satan to corrupt humans, and instead of punishing Satan for all eternity, why doesn't God just simply will Satan and evil out of existence?

Humanity is the joy and love of God's heart. He has an infinite amount of love for all of us, and so for someone to corrupt us and cause us to fall would not make God happy at all. It does not matter how long we have been around in this universe. What matters is that we are the pride and joy of an eternal Creator, and to break an eternal being's heart is not a good idea for someone like Satan. That, to me, is an infinite sin, to be the cause of some people's eternal separation from God.

God also would not will Satan out of existence, because Satan would probably fit with His plan. Not only that, but Satan could challenge God in many ways if He decided to will Satan out of existence. Satan could argue that he is being destroyed because humanity would never still worship God if Satan was allowed to tempt them, and thus challenge God's creation.

If we are going by a quasi-literal interpretation of Genesis, if God created the Garden of Eden, he must have also created the snake that corrupted the humans inside. By that argument, God is responsible for creating a being that he knew would corrupt humans. Even by a more figurative interpretation, God created flawed humans that have the ability to be corrupted and sin.

Many see Genesis as a poetic piece, illustrating God's relationship with mankind. I lean to that side. But alas, I'll defend the creationist point of view anyway. God created the angel Lucifer, with the purpose of being the "Lightbearer", and some sources (not in the Bible) say that Lucifer was the angel that God loved the most. Angels have free will, maybe not as free as humanity, but they still have it. God knew the path Lucifer would take, but because of free will He still decided to create him, even though he would become the evil being known as Satan. I don't think God created the actual physical snake. That was instead the form that Satan chose to take when tempting Adam and Eve.

By that point, why would any other being deserve eternal torture (including Satan), for whatever they do, including apostasy or whatever horrific sin you like, when God created them flawed to begin with? Why would God create beings with a remarkable hindrance towards obeying his law, and then punish them when they can't or are unwilling to follow his law?

It is not a flaw, it is the gift of free will that we all have. God did not create Satan to be evil. God created all things good, and it is us that chooses whether to follow that or not.

 

[Katzpur]

What is your view on apostasy?

I believe there are two kinds of apostasy -- personal apostasy and institutional apostasy. Which one were you primarily interested in discussing?

 

[Apathy]

No, there will not be eternal torture. The Bible speaks of being thrown into a "lake of fire", and that the individual will experience a "second death". A "second death" does not mean eternal torment. It is the extermination of the existence of an individual.

Even then, not that many people will get to this stage. The Bible speaks of two resurrections, the first of believers, and the second of all the dead. I believe here that the world will be given a second chance. After all, why would God resurrect all of the non-believers, only to send them back to death? No, they are resurrected for Judgement. This could mean that the non-believers have a second chance to repent, and those that refuse even then will be thrown into the lake of fire. It could also mean that unlike believers, who are automatically washed clean because of Christ, the non-believers will be judged by God according to his/her deeds, and will be granted entrance to heaven depending on the deeds they have done. Those who are not granted access will not suffer eternal torment, but instead will be separated from God and extinguished.

Concerning Satan and his fallen angels, however, there are multiple Biblical passages which support that they will suffer eternal torment for the atrocities they have committed.

Now this is interesting, I was raised in a baptist church and I can't remember a day in the church where I wasnt threatened directly or indirectly by eternal torture.