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A question

MD

qualiaphile
I have a question and I hope it doesn't offend anyone. If so please delete the thread.

I was reading about Assad in Syria and how under him women had a lot of rights compared to his theocratic neighbors. In most middle eastern dictatorships, from the Shah of Iran to Saddam Hussein and Hosni Mubarak, the rights of women were much greater than in any theocracy which has come to replace those nations.

From a feminist perspective, which is more right, to support a dictator who promotes women's rights and equalities or a theocracy which the people have chosen but suppresses women?
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
From the perspective of women's rights, the mode of governance under which this goal is attained doesn't matter. The details of the implementation may matter for other purposes or values, however.
 

MD

qualiaphile
From the perspective of women's rights, the mode of governance under which this goal is attained doesn't matter. The details of the implementation may matter for other purposes or values, however.

So feminists should support dictators who promote women's rights rather than theocracies which are more egalitarian (in terms of wealth distribution, etc) but suppress women?
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
By definition, feminists support women's rights. Whether or not they choose to support the mode of governance that lead to that objective is not directly related to being a feminist. There are many factors that play into a person favoring or disfavoring a particular mode of governance. I don't think it's fair to simplify a person's thinking on that matter to revolve around a single issue given that is uncommonly the case. People are not that simple.

If a person values women's rights above all else, they will support it regardless of the mode of governance that produces those ends.
If a person has other values that cause them to have serious issues with a particular mode of governance, their desire to forward women's rights may be overridden by other values.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No responses? I'm surprised, I didn't think it was a bad question.
One thing is, technically it's not really supposed to work like that. As a purple area, it's for the use of members of the area only. It's not a blue area where others are allowed to ask questions. So you might not be getting answers because really this area isn't meant for this purpose.

I have a question and I hope it doesn't offend anyone. If so please delete the thread.

I was reading about Assad in Syria and how under him women had a lot of rights compared to his theocratic neighbors. In most middle eastern dictatorships, from the Shah of Iran to Saddam Hussein and Hosni Mubarak, the rights of women were much greater than in any theocracy which has come to replace those nations.

From a feminist perspective, which is more right, to support a dictator who promotes women's rights and equalities or a theocracy which the people have chosen but suppresses women?

So feminists should support dictators who promote women's rights rather than theocracies which are more egalitarian (in terms of wealth distribution, etc) but suppress women?
I think the answer here is what Quintessence said, that people have multifaceted views of the world, rather than only belonging to one group or movement, and all of those facets have to be considered and weighed.

So for example a person can be pro-Democracy, pro-Capitalism, pro-Women's Rights, pro-LGBT, pro-Religious Freedom, and so forth. And yeah, there might be examples where there are conflicts, and one has to choose one over the other. Say one presidential candidate supports women but not LGBT people, while the other one supports LGBT people but not women. Or say one presidential candidate supports women and LGBT and religious freedom, but you differ from their view on fiscal policy, whereas another candidate has a fiscal policy you agree with but their social policy regarding women, LGBT, religion, and whatever else, is way off base. Which do you select?

It would come down to weighing the importance of each one to you. So not all feminists would necessarily have the same views regarding which is preferable; a dictatorship that is kind of okay for women, or theocracy that is worse for women. Both are kind of undesirable for a lot of people, and they may oppose both of them, and have to pick the better of two bad scenarios for now (and really, no individual person gets to "pick" anything). Or they can try to leave if possible, if the options are all bad.

It's a difficult problem all around, that's for sure, and not just regarding women's rights, but many issues. Like in Egypt they overthrew the dictator, and then elected the Muslim Brotherhood, but then they didn't like that either. Theocracy stepped into fill the void when the dictator was gone, and that's a trend that is happening with a lot of the countries in the area: once a dictator is weakened or kicked out, Islamists tend to gain power and influence.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
I understand that Stalin's Russia had comparatively good women's rights.

When it comes to supporting this or that government, a single issue can't be used for judgment. As many issues as possible must be taken into account.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I have a question and I hope it doesn't offend anyone. If so please delete the thread.

I was reading about Assad in Syria and how under him women had a lot of rights compared to his theocratic neighbors. In most middle eastern dictatorships, from the Shah of Iran to Saddam Hussein and Hosni Mubarak, the rights of women were much greater than in any theocracy which has come to replace those nations.

From a feminist perspective, which is more right, to support a dictator who promotes women's rights and equalities or a theocracy which the people have chosen but suppresses women?

I don't have to choose a party in any given conflict to support. I can reject both parties. And I usually do. I do not construct my views around a single issue. I am a secular humanist first and foremost, but I also have a particular interest in the rights of women and minorities. I would consider the fact that Hussein and Assad were more secular (and therefore offer greater freedoms for women) than their opposition a virtue, while considering their brutality and disdain for civilian life and liberty a fault.

In many conflicts, I wish both sides would lose, and Syria is no exception. Throughout the region, my sympathies lie with the Arab Spring uprising, which was characterized by a yearning for greater liberty, democracy and equality. It is deeply unfortunate that religious groups were ready and waiting to take advantage of the power vacuum created by the movement.

In the end, regardless of what I believe, it is for the people of Syria to decide how they will govern themselves going forward. I do not support intervention, except with the explicit aim of preserving civilian life. (By which I mean helping refugees, not joining in the war.)
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I understand that Stalin's Russia had comparatively good women's rights.

When it comes to supporting this or that government, a single issue can't be used for judgment. As many issues as possible must be taken into account.

Yes, communism very often deals a fatal blow to institutionalized / cultural / religious sexism. Even Afghanistan, when it was under Soviet control, offered women a wide variety of freedoms they no longer enjoy.
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
Dunno man. Every single human no matter how evil they are, do have something good in them tho most of the time not shown to public. That however does not clear all of their crimes and render them innocent.

Generally speaking, we can't let out emotions get the best of us in giving an ultimate judgement. We have to be fair and take the subject from all angles. Justice is blind. We get credits for the good we do, yet get punished to the wrong we do unless forgiven.

We cannot, for example and again generally speaking, forgive a child rapist and a murderer for being a kind talker.

If it is true that Asad has a special positive treatment for women and their right, then I commend and give him credit for that. That lets me forget some of his dictator acts, but not label him a good guy like nothing else bad was done, should he really be a dictator.

Note: I dunno much about Asad and I don't judge him. The above are just theoretical thoughts.
 
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