A speaker of the way

[Thief]

Yes this what is termed as the absolute truth IMHO..And yes all discussions on the religious forums are only from practical viewpoint and not from absolute viewpoint(we cannot have any discussion then).


What you have posted is almost the same as the Vedantic criticism of Buddhism.
Buddhism is not nihilism,IMHO buddhist talk about annihilation of egositic self and not the Higher Self (which the Vedantins and jains talk about).By Higher Self(capital 'S') we mean though we remain as individuals at a empirical/worldly level,we are one with greater existence at the absolute level.

And when 'you' become as one.....would 'you' retain 'yourself'?

 

[Metempsychosis]

And when 'you' become as one.....would 'you' retain 'yourself'?

syād-asti—in some ways, it is,
syād-nāsti—in some ways, it is not,
syād-asti-nāsti—in some ways, it is, and it is not,
syād-asti-avaktavyaḥ—in some ways, it is, and it is indescribable,
syād-nāsti-avaktavyaḥ—in some ways, it is not, and it is indescribable,
syād-asti-nāsti-avaktavyaḥ—in some ways, it is, it is not, and it is indescribable,

This is what I believe ...I don't have an experience of such "oneness/nirvana" state ,to tell you about that.:angel2:

 

[YmirGF]

I think both of us are the same thing..
Can you be more clear..

You see, Anti-religion, for decades, I have said exactly the same thing. I no longer hold this view. A short a time ago as ten years ago, you would have found me in perfect agreement with Zenzero. I understand precisely what he (and others) are saying. Since this IS the Buddhism Dir, I shan't deflect the accepted "standard party line" any further. I have decided one thing, however, I am, as of this moment, going to stop using the term enlightenment, as the Buddhist interpretation is no longer one that I support.

 

[Thief]

This is what I believe ...I don't have an experience of such "oneness/nirvana" state ,to tell you about that.:angel2:

Well...kinda hard to speak the way....if 'you' haven't seen it.

And of course there are so many levels of surrendering one's 'self'.

Here in this world, it is done for a variety of motivations.
Religion, society, military, or economy.
As well as personal and immediate needs.

In the next life...surrender could be a bit more....invasive.

 

[Metempsychosis]

You see, Anti-religion, for decades, I have said exactly the same thing. I no longer hold this view. A short a time ago as ten years ago, you would have found me in perfect agreement with Zenzero. I understand precisely what he (and others) are saying. Since this IS the Buddhism Dir, I shan't deflect the accepted "standard party line" any further. I have decided one thing, however, I am, as of this moment, going to stop using the term enlightenment, as the Buddhist interpretation is no longer one that I support.

I understand...

 

[Metempsychosis]

You see, Anti-religion, for decades, I have said exactly the same thing. I no longer hold this view. A short a time ago as ten years ago, you would have found me in perfect agreement with Zenzero. I understand precisely what he (and others) are saying. Since this IS the Buddhism Dir, I shan't deflect the accepted "standard party line" any further. I have decided one thing, however, I am, as of this moment, going to stop using the term enlightenment, as the Buddhist interpretation is no longer one that I support.

BTW ymirgf,

Considering that mystics come to some sort of agreement regardlless of their religion(like I find Jewish mysticism has many similarities with Hindu vedanta,even tough their religions has nothing in common).Do you think anytime later,you would again start to agree with them..or do you find any need to agree with them?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Zen

The summit of the peak of the mystic passover
Is not the human world;
Outside the mind, there are no things-
The eyes are filled with blue mountains.

Te-shao

If it is correct that there is no duality outside the human mind, then all those who dispute this have not actually realized transcendent consciousness, i.e. omnipresent omniscience.

However of course the unenlightened will experience extraordinary mind states during their religious practice, it is just that these experiences are not to be confused or conflated with true enlightenment which is unrelated to self identification.

Respectfully, Ben D.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Ymir,

going to stop using the term enlightenment

Hahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!
Where is *enlightenment*?? and who is discussing IT?
Rgds *agreement*, when no point has ever been made where is the question of disagreement or agreement??

LOve & rgds

 

[zenzero]

Friend THIEF,

Not so fast!!!!
You guys are deceiving yourselves.

One thought leads to another...to another ...to another.....

As long as this goes on...'you'....exist.
'You' may claim 'you' understand...but as long as 'you' pat each other on the back....no 'you' don't.

'You' would have me abandon 'myself' to obtain enlightenment....
but to let go of the 'id', one must relinquish all thought and feeling.

Having done that...'you'...or 'I'....no longer exist.

Having done that....no discussion of existence can be performed.
'You' don't even get to say...'ohmmmmmmmmmmm'!

Hahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Once again you miss the point.
There is no-one THEN to say "OHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM'.
A part of the *whole* [such an individual- who is no more an *I*] is only a medium of the *whole* and the medium only is used by the whole to play the eternal sound / music "OM".

Love & rgds

 

[Thief]

Friend THIEF,



Hahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Once again you miss the point.
There is no-one THEN to say "OHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM'.
A part of the *whole* [such an individual- who is no more an *I*] is only a medium of the *whole* and the medium only is used by the whole to play the eternal sound / music "OM".

Love & rgds

You have become confused by your own noise.

What you have described in your last post is identical to Star Trek episodes of assimilation by the Borg.
"Resistance is futile!"

If and when ever you learn to accept your 'self'...then you are whole.
Losing your 'self' negates the purpose of being born into a linear existence.
You are contrary to the obvious scheme of things.
God created Man to have intelligent conversation...coming up from unique experience.

Losing your 'self'....and you become dust...as if you were never born.
Losing your 'mind'....is insanity.
There is no point in following 'you'.
'You' will soon disappear into nothing.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Thief,

If and when ever you learn to accept your 'self'...then you are whole.
Losing your 'self' negates the purpose of being born into a linear existence.
You are contrary to the obvious scheme of things.
God created Man to have intelligent conversation...coming up from unique experience.

Losing your 'self'....and you become dust...as if you were never born.
Losing your 'mind'....is insanity.
There is no point in following 'you'.
'You' will soon disappear into nothing.

Since the point of *losing the self* is not yet understood by the MIND; it is surely creating confusion. For an understanding it should be understood that Humans created/developed the *god* concept.Yes, someone needs to be there to even disappear; besides one follows *pointers* on his own path.

Love & rgds

 

[Thief]

Friend Thief,


Since the point of *losing the self* is not yet understood by the MIND; it is surely creating confusion. For an understanding it should be understood that Humans created/developed the *god* concept.Yes, someone needs to be there to even disappear; besides one follows *pointers* on his own path.

Love & rgds

Now you're trying to explain to me an understanding while in the same breath saying it must understood.

Give it up. You're playing with words.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Thief,
Only when someone is there, the possibility of saying anything happens; but here there is no one to even do so.
Individuals are born free with choices and alawys free to choose to hear, listen, do do any action or in-action.
Whatever choices one makes cannot be attributed to anyone else.
Best Wishes.
Love & rgds

 

[Walkntune]

To loose yourself in the mind is to find yourself in the heart.
To quiet the mind is to become in tune with wisdom of the heart.
All "wants" in the conscious become a bondage to the subconscious.
When the conscious wants, the subconscious receives it as" I don't have" and the heart is troubled.
Jesus said it best.
Those who lay down their life will find it and those who seek their life will loose it.
Let go in the mind and you will find it in the heart.

 

[Thief]

More words that lack meaning.

Man was created that we become individuals.
There cannot be a surrendering of the mind or heart.

When you die...
You will stand up from your dust and be held accountable for what you think and feel.
If you fail to stand up, you will follow your dust into the box, the box into the ground.
Eternal darkness is physically real.

You will be the person you are... or not at all.

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

Thief,
We have tried to offer a window of understanding, but that window is still in the way of understanding. We cannot make you understand, you must choose to look past the window of words to seek what is behind them.

Borg is a poor example of loosing self. They had been forced to give up self and serve as a tool to the queen. They had self ripped out of them to force compliance. When you attain a point when you loose self, it will not be the same as becoming a slave forced to follow some queen, it will be much different. Nothing will be insignificant or futile.

 

[Thief]

Thief,
We have tried to offer a window of understanding, but that window is still in the way of understanding. We cannot make you understand, you must choose to look past the window of words to seek what is behind them.

Borg is a poor example of loosing self. They had been forced to give up self and serve as a tool to the queen. They had self ripped out of them to force compliance. When you attain a point when you loose self, it will not be the same as becoming a slave forced to follow some queen, it will be much different. Nothing will be insignificant or futile.

On the contrary...replace the noun 'borg' with 'death'.

Now carry through. Resistance is futile. No exceptions.
Dust you are, dust you will be.....unless....

You stand up from your dust, and stand well before anyone having gone before you.
You will be held to the things you have said...the things you have done.

Therefore, do unto others as you would have it done unto you.
Because it will be done unto you as you did unto others.

'You' were intended to be spiritual.
The flesh is only a means to form an individual.
Surrendering 'you' negates that process.
'You' are attempting to be contrary.

And that contrariness could be allowed.
If all you want to be is... dust?.....so be it.

As for that window? it appears to be broken. You fix it!

 

[zenzero]

Friend Thief,

As for that window? it appears to be broken. You fix it!

There is neither a window nor any self; what is; IS.
Love & rgds

 

[Twilight Hue]

'You' would have me abandon 'myself' to obtain enlightenment....
but to let go of the 'id', one must relinquish all thought and feeling.

Having done that...'you'...or 'I'....no longer exist.

Having done that....no discussion of existence can be performed.
'You' don't even get to say...'ohmmmmmmmmmmm'!

Well say it now! Get it out of your system. Heh!

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

On the contrary...replace the noun 'borg' with 'death'.

Now carry through. Resistance is futile. No exceptions.
Dust you are, dust you will be.....unless....

You stand up from your dust, and stand well before anyone having gone before you.
You will be held to the things you have said...the things you have done.

Therefore, do unto others as you would have it done unto you.
Because it will be done unto you as you did unto others.

'You' were intended to be spiritual.
The flesh is only a means to form an individual.
Surrendering 'you' negates that process.
'You' are attempting to be contrary.

And that contrariness could be allowed.
If all you want to be is... dust?.....so be it.

As for that window? it appears to be broken. You fix it!

Where do your conceptions spring from? Please share them, it may be constructive.

Replacing borg with death does not matter, the point illustrated was that enlightenment and borg are poor substitutes for each other.

You are speaking of life after death, a continuance of the consciousness into another life, even more, it seems you will carry over all aspects (body, mind, consciousness, soul). This we are not speaking of.

To lose the Self is to realize that this 'dust' you are speaking of is no better or worse than you are, that you are but different manifestations of creation, an idea which was powerful enough to materialize. What we lose while interacting with this manifestation is the connection to the idea, or rather, the force behind the idea. It is easier to accept that which is before us, easier to interact and build relationships to that which is more concrete, easier to rely on cause and effect and other dualities which litter this idea. It is difficult to conceptualize something which one has no experience with. Use the example of language again: someone could offend you or compliment you in a language you had never heard, how could you understand which it was?

If that window appears to be broken just remember this: the window is the barrier constructed by the self, if you see it as broken, look within.