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A very good article about Syria and ISIS, and some comments on what it touches on

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
The article is at http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...ror_attacks_in_europe_or_the_middle_east.html

I like it a lot, mainly because it is both sensible and informed. It struck me that it touches on a lot of realities of politics that deserve some comment and clarification.

Perhaps chief among them, it almost takes for granted that the Middle Eastern conflicts are strongly correlated to the Sunni/Shia division in Islam. That is perhaps something that should be evidenced, but I don't think there is any serious challenge to that statement. The division may or may not be easy to understand, worth emphasizing or worth downplaying or even resolving entirely, but it has a lot of political significance and has had for centuries.

Also, the dangerous extremists exist both among Sunni (most notably ISIS) and Shia (Al-Qaeda, among others) and they are very much at odds with each other, to the point that it may be a significant challenge to overcome one without promoting the other.

The article also hints that ultimately the dangers of Muslim extremists are remarkably decentralized, even outright chaotic in their arising and behavior - and that may well be one of the most worrisome things that it suggests, IMO accurately. ISIS may well crumble under its own weight or even be defeated by military and diplomatic actions, but that does not mean that any significant measure of improvement will follow.

Also noticeable in the article and IMO commendable is the acknowledgement of how fragile and complex these fictional constructs that we call "nations" are. Syria is plagued by civil war and there is no easy way out of its predicaments, nor is there any magical "sovereignity" to take refuge on. Syria is just a place that many people have an interest in for various, often suspect and/or conflicting reasons.


One thing I want to understand better are the perspectives of Muslims about this Shia/Sunni divide and its political consequences. I know for a fact that many or most Muslims wish the division did not exist, but it is not very clear what, if anything, can be done about it, in either the religious or political fronts. Which benefits, if any, there are in the existence of this division? Is it even clear whether it would be best to establish clear representation and rights to both groups, or instead to deemphasize that distinction between Shias and Sunnis?

Yet another interesting fact hinted by the article is the significant challenge involved in actually learning to want peace. Far too often we end up pursuing supremacy at the expense of peace, perhaps because keeping peace is actually taxing and even at odds with human nature. It may well be that the duty to learn to overcome those impulses is a necessary priority for humanity as a whole.

The article also hints at what is meant in the USA by "nation-building", an expression that I find deeply ironic when used by USA politicians, whose idea of nation building involves using military might and other means of even more questionable legitimacy to supress or outright destroy local political movements in foreign territory. How they can defend such an idea while presumably still finding their own rebellion against Great Britain in the 18th century a good thing is not something I feel ready to explain.

Fred Kaplan does not attempt to address that, nor does he use that odd expression, but he does point out that it is in the USA best interests that Iraq establishes a regime that is at least stable in the military and political senses, is on speaking terms with the USA, and somehow does not encourage extremists from either the Sunni and Kurd minorities nor the Shia majority. Whether that can be done at all is something of an open question. Even if it can, odds are that it will increase Iranian influence in Iraq, and who knows what can come from that?

A major mistake that I see is the insistence of the USA in thinking of military interventions as a necessary tool for "nation building". That did not work for the British in the 13 colonies, and it wil not work in the Middle East. Fear of reprisal is not adherence to national ideals.

Another mistake which is perhaps being avoided so far would be the reliance on the Sunni / Shia lines of division for goal planning. The division is all too real - probably far too real for anyone's good, even - but it must be deemphasized if true peace is to be attained. Shias and Sunnis must have good reasons not to fear and mistrust each other, as well as to not feel wary towards the USA. Supporting the Shias in Syria and the Sunnis in Iraq may well be necessary out of humanitarian concerns alone, but making too big an issue of the division will result in either choosing one side over the other or being mistrusted by both.
 
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Pastek

Sunni muslim
One thing I want to understand better are the perspectives of Muslims about this Shia/Sunni divide and its political consequences. I know for a fact that many or most Muslims wish the division did not exist, but it is not very clear what, if anything, can be done about it, in either the religious or political fronts. Which benefits, if any, there are in the existence of this division? Is it even clear whether it would be best to establish clear representation and rights to both groups, or instead to deemphasize that distinction between Shias and Sunnis?

First of all, muslims are a very vast group. The tensions between some sunnis and some shias concern more some middle east countries.
For exemple you never see problems (or it must be rare) in other countries (western or not) between shias and sunnis.
In khotba (religious sermons) i never heard an imam talking about shias as enemies or as non-muslims.

Muslims in north africa don't have (or very little) shias in their countries. In our countries (in maghreb) we have other minorities like amazighs who want more rights like in Lybia (that Gaddaffi denied) or face other problems like in Algeria those 15 last years :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Spring_(Algeria)
https://news.vice.com/article/22-killed-as-arab-and-berber-communities-clash-in-algerian-town

Or the conflict about the Western Sahara :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Sahara

Egyptians have their own problems concerning their borders with Gaza and concerning the share of the Nile with Sudan and the conflicts with Daesh in the Sinaï etc

Other muslims in other parts of Africa or Asia probably don't care that much about shias too. (Except in Pakistan and Afghanistan).

In recent years, Sunni–Shia relations have been increasingly marked by conflict, particularly the Iran–Saudi Arabia proxy conflict. Sectarian violence persists to this day from Pakistan to Yemen and is a major element of friction throughout the Middle East.
Tensions between communities have intensified during power struggles, such as the Bahraini uprising, the Iraq War, and most recently the Syrian Civil War and in the formation of the self-styled Islamic State of Iraq and Syria that has launched a genocide against Shias.

Following this period, Sunni–Shia strife has seen a major upturn, particularly in Iraq and Pakistan, leading to thousands of deaths.
Among the explanations for the increase are conspiracies by outside forces to divide Muslims, the recent Islamic revival and increased religious purity and consequent takfir, upheaval, destruction and loss of power of Sunni caused by the US invasion of Iraq, and sectarianism generated by Arab regimes defending themselves against the mass uprisings of the Arab Spring

Marc Lynch in his book The New Arab Wars: Uprisings and Anarchy in the Middle East, argues that as old regimes or political forces sought to control "the revolutionary upsurge" of the Arab Spring, sectarianism became “a key weapon” to undermine unity among the anti-regime masses.
Christians were pitted "against Muslims in Egypt, Jordanians against Palestinians in Jordan, and, above all, Sunnis against Shi’ites wherever possible.”


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia–Sunni_relations#1919.E2.80.931970

I won't copy-past the whole article but it explains quite well the situation, it's not religious it's political.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
This whole issue makes me as mad as hell. What the US and its allies have done in the Middle east in the last 15 years, has been the most disgusting thing I have witnessed in a long time. The lies that have been told to justify their wars, interventions and arming of warring groups has been both depressing and infuriating.

Yesterday's coup attempt in Turkey is a perfect illustration of my thoughts on the subject. Erdogan has been killing and suppressing his people including journalists. I.e. he has been doing precisely what the West accuses Assad and accused Ghaddafi and Saddam of doing. But the coup attempt failed and the West has been giving the Murderous dictator and outpouring of love and support for managing to continue his increasingly dictatorial and tyrannical rule.

This then begs the question: if being a murderous dictator is not sufficient grounds (see Erdogan and the Saudi king), according to the West, for you to be a target for toppling by the NATO alliance then what were NATO members doing in Iraq, Libya and what are they still doing in Syria? This is the question I wish the citizens of these so called free nations would ask themselves and their governments. Because it is only after they get those answers that they will begin to understand the origin of the enmity in the heart of many who come from the middle-east or who otherwise identify with it for whatever reason (e.g. religious reasons).

The fact of the matter is imperial and colonial powers throughout the ages have always looked for ways to blame the destruction they inflict on their victims on the victims themselves. Whether it is the British of old claiming Africans were always killing each other and they only came to help establish peace and teach them civilisation, or the NATO alliance, led by the US, claiming some infighting or some oppressive leader is why they have to intervene and topple a sometimes democratically elected and even secular government in order to install a compliant leader; there is never a shortage of excuses and phantoms these bullies will use or dream up to justify to their populations why they use their taxes to inflict pain on the world.

I really hope the people of these "free nations" will wake up and start taking a stand against their freely elected representative - after all, as we have seen in France repeatedly, it is the free people who bear the brunt of the reprisals against their leaders' decisions and policies.
 
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icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
The "west's" interventions in the ME have been horrible - no argument from me. That said, I think it's extremely likely that if the west had done nothing in the region after WW I, we'd still have witnessed unending strife.

So there are at least two big factors here: the nature of the region itself, and western interventions.
 

james dixon

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
TRUMP SAID:

Israel, American Jews, Funding ISIS and World Terrorism

http://tinyurl.com/oqe77my

Putin Aide Says Israel is Training ISIS

http://tinyurl.com/jban98t

Updated: Israeli General Captured in Iraq Confesses to Israel-Isis Coalition\“There is a strong cooperation between MOSSAD and ISIS top military commanders...Israeli advisors helping the Organization on laying out strategic and military plans, and guiding them in the battlefield”

http://tinyurl.com/pxoymlc


UN Report Reveals How Israel is Coordinating with ISIS Militants Inside Syria

http://tinyurl.com/ne2rx7d

ISIS is a Creation of the Mossad

http://tinyurl.com/zw7z58l

ISIS, Israel, Iraq, And Syria: It’s All Part Of The Plan

http://tinyurl.com/gnqnpsw

comments welcome
 

james dixon

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
That is garbage. Conspiracy "theories" about how everything that is disastrous was meant to be by shady designs of the Jews should be dealt with with a lot less respect than you obviously have for them.

What was posted were and are links to facts while your response was added nothing to the content but bla, bla, bla. Surely you have something of substance to say with links to support your view.

Go for it !!

BTW This is not about "Jews", this is about Israeli's & there is a difference even if you cover your eyes in denial
 
ISIS is a Creation of the Mossad

http://tinyurl.com/zw7z58l

"So it is, the primary name of the Israeli spy agencies is now revealed, Israeli Secret Intelligent Service or ISIS. It could be no coincidence that the terrorist group which is furthering Zionist plots, that is the carving up of Iraq into multiple enclaves, has the same namesake."

This is a special kind of stupid :D:D:D:D

The primary name of Mossad is: המוסד למודיעין ולתפקידים מיוחדים, and even in English the acronym is not ISIS. And even if it was, why the **** would they give their super top secret nefarious Zionist plot the same name as their organisation so any 2 bit simpleton on the internet could put 2 + 2 together and get 'conclusive proof' of their nefarious Zionist ways?

Perhaps we will see some more Jihadi groups soon such as Mujahadin International 6 or the Caliphate Insane Assassins. The Russians are pretty crafty though so their lot would be the Kool Guerilla Boyz, so the FSB would have plausible deniability.
 

james dixon

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
That is garbage. Conspiracy "theories" about how everything that is disastrous was meant to be by shady designs of the Jews should be dealt with with a lot less respect than you obviously have for them.

Google Irgun, Haganah and Stern gangs and you will get 144,000 hits

Zionists threw bombs into buses and cafes and sent bombs to British officials

November 25, 1940. S.S.Patria was blown up by Jewish terrorists in Haifa harbor, killing 268 illegal Jewish immigrants. This was done by Zionists who wanted to keep the ship in port but used to much explosives and killed their own by mistake. Note: The Zionists who blew up the ship then blamed a local village for the act and based on this false claim they murdered

December 29, 1947. Two British constables and 11 Arabs were killed and 32 Arabs injured, at the Damascus Gate in Jerusalem when Irgun members threw a bomb from a taxi.
everyone in that village and then leveled it with bulldozers.

September 3, 1947. A postal bomb addressed to the British War Office exploded in the post office sorting room in London, injuring 2 persons. It was attributed to Irgun or Stern Gangs. (The Sunday Times, Sept. 24, 1972, p.8)

May 3, 1948. A book bomb addressed to a British Army officer, who had been stationed in Palestine exploded, killing his brother, Rex Farran.

May11, 1948. A letter bomb addressed to Sir Evelyn Barker, former Commanding Officer in Palestine, was detected in the nick of time by his wife.

I could add a whole lot more but I think I have made my point :)-
 
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