A warning and a call to Baha’is from Baha’u’llah’s Universal House of Justice

[Jim]

Is it that you're saying all the Baha'i teachings apply only to Baha'i, and not to humanity?

Oh! LOL! That question bewildered me at first, but now I see what the problem might be. “One Common Faith” is the name of a message from the Baha’i Universal House of Justice in 2005, addressed to the Baha’is of the world. Sorry! I’ll revise the OP to clarify that.

 

[Vinayaka]

Oh! LOL! That question bewildered me at first, but now I see what the problem might be. “One Common Faith” is the name of a message from the Baha’i Universal House of Justice in 2005, addressed to the Baha’is of the world. Sorry! I’ll revise the OP to clarify that.

Non-Baha's rarely get Bahaispeak. That's why it's better to put it into the Bahai DIR. You have yet to clearly tell me what it is you wish to debate, but I'm use to really poor communication with Baha'i adherents, so I guess it's fine.

 

[Jim]

You have yet to clearly tell me what it is you wish to debate ...

I don’t want to debate anything, but I didn’t want to restrict anyone’s freedom in this discussion, to say whatever they want to say.

 

[Vinayaka]

I don’t want to debate anything, but I didn’t want to restrict anyone’s freedom in this discussion, to say whatever they want to say.

Yes, I know. You're the first Baha'i to admit it though. Several of these 'false debate' threads have appeared from Baha'i folk on this forum. Since it will be Baha'is discussing Baha'i stuff, I still think there would be a better place for it, like the Baha'i DIR, for example. With that, I'm out. Enjoy your 'discussion'.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

I don’t want to debate anything….

Then why post in the Debates section? The board may not be perfectly laid out, but if people just lumped everything in together, it would become unusable.

Baha'is like to sound very reasonable: "look how we accept the truths in other people's faiths". But that's just cherry-picking the bits you like and ignoring the rest, and it comes across as an attempt to pull the wool over people's eyes as a precursor to an attempt to convert them. You are actually just as committed to the inerrancy of your scriptures as the Christians and Muslims: you should admit it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Then why post in the Debates section? The board may not be perfectly laid out, but if people just lumped everything in together, it would become unusable.

Baha'is like to sound very reasonable: "look how we accept the truths in other people's faiths". But that's just cherry-picking the bits you like and ignoring the rest, and it comes across as an attempt to pull the wool over people's eyes as a precursor to an attempt to convert them. You are actually just as committed to the inerrancy of your scriptures as the Christians and Muslims: you should admit it.

David, though I think this should be in the DIR section, it will raise debateable ideas and you and Vinayaka have raised those ideas.

This document was provided to Baha'i to help them understand the all embracing Message of Baha'u'llah. That the Message is for all people and not just Baha'i.

No Baha'i has cherry picked parts of other Faiths, we have just read and tried to understand what Baha'u'llah offered mankind as a whole. It is His message that is addressed to all the world.

In that light we have accepted the solution He offered will work and thus come to discuss that solution with others. We are the first to admit that in doing that we may get it wrong.

You have mentioned the desire to convert and this has been imputed often. All Baha'i know they can not and do not convert any person.

The desire I can assure you is Unity, to share this life in peace and harmony. If we have not done this by posting here, we have posted incorrectly.

Peace be to all and regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

@adrian009 @Tony Bristow-Stagg

Before I start discussing the message, I want to post some of my current thoughts and feelings about the issues involved. Part of the context is my vision of the the future, and part of it is the 2002 message from the House of Justice to the world’s religious leaders.

I think that as time goes by, more and more people will learn to value all people everywhere, and care what happens to them, more and more, without devaluing people across imaginary dividing lines. On that topic, recently from a discussion here I had a new insight into that. I think now that religious and anti-religious prejudices go hand in hand with national and race prejudices. Anything we do help free people from one will help free them from the others. Unfortunately that might mean that there’s still a lot more race prejudice than there might appear to be, considering how widely and shamelessly religious and anti-religious prejudices are still being promoted.

However that may be, as I was saying, I think that in the coming decades, more and more people will learn to value all people everywhere, and care what happens to them, more and more, without devaluing people across imaginary dividing lines. I think that eventually that will grow and spread enough that the oppression, vandalism and violence that we’re seeing now will stop increasing and start decreasing. I think that at the same time, governments and other institutions of society will evolve in ways that no one can foresee, to better serve the interests of people who value all people everywhere, and care what happens to them, without devaluing people across imaginary dividing lines.

That’s part of my vision of the future, and part of the context for some of my ideas about what followers of Baha’u’llah can do online about the issues discussed in “One Common Faith.”

Jim, I was fortunate to marry a women that because what she had faced in life has empathy for all people. Her great difficulty in life is watching people draw lines and put up barriers.

She found the all embracing message of Baha'u'llah by just reading a prayer. The 'O God refresh and gladden my spirit" prayer.

Prejudices of all types are our greatest barrier.

In the end Faith speaks best with no words but in service we offer to all people. In my community all I can offer is service, there is little opportunity for words.

Regards Tony

 

[Jim]

Baha'is like to sound very reasonable: "look how we accept the truths in other people's faiths". But that's just cherry-picking the bits you like and ignoring the rest, and it comes across as an attempt to pull the wool over people's eyes as a precursor to an attempt to convert them. You are actually just as committed to the inerrancy of your scriptures as the Christians and Muslims: you should admit it.

That’s exactly how some of it looks to me, and how I feel about it. Once I even saw someone training Baha’is to do that!, That’s one example of what I’m hoping to help remedy with this discussion.

ETA:

I’m very glad you said that, and that’s an example of why I didn’t post it the DIR forum, besides the fact that I’m not authorized to post there, and I don’t want to be.

 

[Jim]

Then why post in the Debates section?

I’ve already answered that question, at least three times now, including in the very same sentence that you truncated, to question me about it.

 

[Jim]

This document was provided to Baha'i to help them understand the all embracing Message of Baha'u'llah. That the Message is for all people and not just Baha'i.

I disagree, and that view of it is an example of why I want to discuss it.

No Baha'i has cherry picked parts of other Faiths ...

I disagree. That’s another example of why I want to discuss the issues raised in that message.

All Baha'i know they can not and do not convert any person.

I disagree. I don’t think that all Baha’is know that. At least there are some who don’t act like they know it. That’s another example of why I want to discuss the issues raised in that message.

These disagreements between us are examples of why I created this thread in the debate forum.

 

[Vinayaka]

I disagree, and that view of it is an example of why I want to discuss it.


I disagree. That’s another example of why I want to discuss the issues raised in that message.


I disagree. I don’t think that all Baha’is know that. At least there are some who don’t act like they know it. That’s another example of why I want to discuss the issues raised in that message.

These disagreements between us are examples of why I created this thread in the debate forum.

This is indeed a breath of fresh air, Jim. A Baha'i questioning Baha' beliefs. I didn't think that was possible. Maybe it's not quite the echo chamber I figured it was. Looking forward to how this proceeds.

 

[Jim]

@adrian009 @Tony Bristow-Stagg

As I said, before I discuss the message itself, I want to discuss our current ideas about some of the issues. One of those issues is the oneness of religion. “Religion” (singular) not “religions” (plural). I disagree now with the words of a song that used to be popular among Baha’is: “All religions are one.” That idea, and some of the ways that Baha’is try to explain and defend it, look foolish, hypocritical and/or devious to people sometimes, and I think rightly so. I agree with some of our critics that the factions that are commonly known as “religions” today can not possibly ever be reconciled.

What I think Abdu’l-Baha means by the oneness of religion (singular) is the common divine origin and purpose of some parts of the lore and scriptures of the religions, and their common potential role and functions in bringing out the best in people and in society.

I don’t think that the oneness of religion means that Baha’is can interpret other people’s scriptures for them, and assimilate their religions into ours. I think it means learning to walk side by with people, wherever they are in their path of spiritual progress, learning from them, and encouraging and supporting them in ways that really help.

 

[paarsurrey]

@adrian009 @Tony Bristow-Stagg

As I said, before I discuss the message itself, I want to discuss our current ideas about some of the issues. One of those issues is the oneness of religion. “Religion” (singular) not “religions” (plural). I disagree now with the words of a song that used to be popular among Baha’is: “All religions are one.” That idea, and some of the ways that Baha’is try to explain and defend it, look foolish, hypocritical and/or devious to people sometimes, and I think rightly so. I agree with some of our critics that the factions that are commonly known as “religions” today can not possibly ever be reconciled.

What I think Abdu’l-Baha means by the oneness of religion (singular) is the common divine origin and purpose of some parts of the lore and scriptures of the religions, and their common potential role and functions in bringing out the best in people and in society.

I don’t think that the oneness of religion means that Baha’is can interpret other people’s scriptures for them, and assimilate their religions into ours. I think it means learning to walk side by with people, wherever they are in their path of spiritual progress, learning from them, and encouraging and supporting them in ways that really help.

"I agree with some of our critics that the factions that are commonly known as “religions” today can not possibly ever be reconciled." Unquote

There is no need and compulsion to do it, with peaceful dialogue , reasonable arguments and signs Truth will ultimately open the hearts of the people to Truth. This should be done steadfastly. If some people don't accept, it is their choice, they should not be bothered and left to co-exist. Is there any harm in it, please?

Regards

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I’ve seen Baha’is all over the Internet doing things that seem to me to help perpetuate and even reinforce religious and anti-religious prejudices and delusions.

Hmm. How so?

 

[LuisDantas]

Most likely should be in Baha'i DIR

Regards Tony

Perhaps in Same Faith Debates. But if debate is intended, a DIR is not the place for it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What I think Abdu’l-Baha means by the oneness of religion (singular) is the common divine origin and purpose of some parts of the lore and scriptures of the religions, and their common potential role and functions in bringing out the best in people and in society.

I agree Jim

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

As I said, before I discuss the message itself, I want to discuss our current ideas about some of the issues. One of those issues is the oneness of religion. “Religion” (singular) not “religions” (plural). I disagree now with the words of a song that used to be popular among Baha’is: “All religions are one.” That idea, and some of the ways that Baha’is try to explain and defend it, look foolish, hypocritical and/or devious to people sometimes, and I think rightly so. I agree with some of our critics that the factions that are commonly known as “religions” today can not possibly ever be reconciled.

This is the organics of Faith and a Message from God in a New Era.

In this day we have a call for the Unity of the entire human race. Thus never before has a Message attempted the potential of all Messages, that is the unity of the entire human race.

Therein is the first challenge. We are told all Faith has come from the same One Source of God. That they differ only in the laws of the age and requirements for the age they were given.

I see the message under discussion was given as a warning about how division has plagued all past Faiths and that we are to consider what has caused that division so it is not repeated by the Baha'i.

I have a lot on at this time Jim, your posts needs more thought to do any justice in reply to you.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"I agree with some of our critics that the factions that are commonly known as “religions” today can not possibly ever be reconciled." Unquote

There is no need and compulsion to do it, with peaceful dialogue , reasonable arguments and signs Truth will ultimately open the hearts of the people to Truth. This should be done steadfastly. If some people don't accept, it is their choice, they should not be bothered and left to co-exist. Is there any harm in it, please?

Regards

You have a great heart, you views are always most welcome

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don’t think that the oneness of religion means that Baha’is can interpret other people’s scriptures for them, and assimilate their religions into ours. I think it means learning to walk side by with people, wherever they are in their path of spiritual progress, learning from them, and encouraging and supporting them in ways that really help.

I personally think that is for each Baha'i to come to terms with. Baha'u'llah has told us to immerse ourselves in the ocean of Gods Words to find the pearls of great price that they all contain.

Then the question becomes when do you share what you have found and when do you not share those ideas?

Regards Tony

 

[Jim]

Maybe people who disagree with where this thread was created could write to the moderators about it, instead of continually sidetracking this discussion with it, please?