A Word on Political Correctness VS Free Speech

[MysticSang'ha]

Well the whole reclamation of language doesn't really address any real problems with the language itself. Instead of using a particular slur to denigrate someone, which I do not support. All you've really done is shift the power that word has to another group of people. You haven't softened it, you haven't addressed why that word is so volatile in the first place, you've only made it taboo and therefore more charged than ever. The offense is now heightened, the ability to **** people off or insult them is far higher than it actually was in the first place. You haven't done anything to the language except make it that more powerful. So instead of moving forward, instead of mocking the insult, instead of putting it in it's proper place (ie beneath us) all you've done is made sure we stay stagnant. That we cannot use "that word" because it is so goddamned awful.
You have given power to that word.

So yeah, all races should use "that word." If it becomes every day, ordinary, you have sucked all the power it has to insult someone using it. I'm not saying to brush off history and all the awfulness that is accompanied by it. But I am saying there is some merit to the other side of this, how about the PC Police actually discusses this with their "enemies" instead of brushing them off as racist or misogynistic or sexist or whatever? Or as people who just want to use slurs?
We might be able to move forward instead of being locked in a continual cycle of every special snowflake getting offended at literally everything and other people telling them to suck it up. Because at this point, that's all I really see.
(By the way that goes for both sides of the equation. Look at the stupid uproar about Hermione being played by a black woman in the Cursed Child play. Like seriously. Ughh.)

Uh yeah. Sure. Things will go over real well if people can just call me a whore or a dyke whenever they feel like it.

You think those words are never or have never been accompanied with violent threats in my direction?

How utterly naive, SR. This isn't a college classroom discussing the theory. This is real ****ing life.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Well the whole reclamation of language doesn't really address any real problems with the language itself. Instead of using a particular slur to denigrate someone, which I do not support. All you've really done is shift the power that word has to another group of people. You haven't softened it, you haven't addressed why that word is so volatile in the first place, you've only made it taboo and therefore more charged than ever. The offense is now heightened, the ability to **** people off or insult them is far higher than it actually was in the first place. You haven't done anything to the language except make it that more powerful. So instead of moving forward, instead of mocking the insult, instead of putting it in it's proper place (ie beneath us) all you've done is made sure we stay stagnant. That we cannot use "that word" because it is so goddamned awful.
You have given power to that word.

So yeah, all races should use "that word." If it becomes every day, ordinary, you have sucked all the power it has to insult someone using it. I'm not saying to brush off history and all the awfulness that is accompanied by it. But I am saying there is some merit to the other side of this, how about the PC Police actually discusses this with their "enemies" instead of brushing them off as racist or misogynistic or sexist or whatever? Or as people who just want to use slurs?
We might be able to move forward instead of being locked in a continual cycle of every special snowflake getting offended at literally everything and other people telling them to suck it up. Because at this point, that's all I really see.
(By the way that goes for both sides of the equation. Look at the stupid uproar about Hermione being played by a black woman in the Cursed Child play. Like seriously. Ughh.)

So I guess you think it would be acceptable if more people called each other "retards" and "camel jockeys" under the banner of reclaiming those terms, right?

You remind me of the people who defend the usage of the word "gay" to refer to negative things as being benign because they have "nothing against homosexuality." They just use the word for its popular meaning, they say, while completely ignoring its etymology that clearly sheds light on how using it to refer to negative things is homophobic and bigoted.

 

[YmirGF]

The problem with that is being too subtle. If they never actually feel insult, has insult actually occurred? (ponder!)

That is part of the idea, Patty. If an insult is not recognized for what it truly is then it has reached the pinnacle. Is a fool who does not know they are a fool any less of a fool?

 

[Willamena]

That is part of the idea, Patty. If an insult is not recognized for what it truly is then it has reached the pinnacle. Is a fool who does not know they are a fool any less of a fool?

You'll get no agreeance from me.

 

[YmirGF]

You'll get no agreeance from me.

I'm good with that. My personal favorite is when folks think I am being complimentary.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm good with that. My personal favorite is when folks think I am being complimentary.

You're utterly wrong.
The best insults are those which make some uncomfortable truth dawn upon the recipient.

I'm reminded of the best insult I ever heard.
I once worked at Waterman Gym at UofM.
It was an odd place.....half the graduate aerospace dept worked there, handing out towels, monitoring the entrance, etc.
A friend, working on his PhD in physics, was working the "cage" one day, handing out towels.
Some pencil neck started giving him grief, saying he was a just "towel jockey" obsessed with his body.
(Friend was a powerful weightlifter too.)
Friend simply noticed that the grief giver wasn't obsessed with his own.

 

[metis]

I'm reminded of the best insult I ever heard.

Nah, that doesn't beat this classic: "The best part of you ran down your mother's leg".

 

[Revoltingest]

Nah, that doesn't beat this classic: "The best part of you ran down your mother's leg".

The problem is that such insults sound clever, but lacking discomforting truth, they have no real effect on the recipient.

Of course, I have more examples which, when holding a shred of truth for the recipient, work well......

A member of Parliament to Disraeli:"Sir, you will either die on the gallows or of some unspeakable disease.”
"That depends, Sir, " said Disraeli,"whether I embrace your policies or your mistress."

"He had delusions of adequacy"
-Walter Kerr

"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire."
- Winston Churchill

"He has no enemies, but is intensely disliked by his friends."
-Oscar Wilde

"He is a self-made man and worships his creator."
-John Bright

"I've just learned about his illness. Let's hope it's nothing trivial."
-Irvin S. Cobb

"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."
-Oscar Wilde

"He has Van Gogh's ear for music."
-Billy Wilder

Most of the above could apply to me, so please show a little restraint.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

So I guess you think it would be acceptable if more people called each other "retards" and "camel jockeys" under the banner of reclaiming those terms, right?

You remind me of the people who defend the usage of the word "gay" to refer to negative things as being benign because they have "nothing against homosexuality." They just use the word for its popular meaning, they say, while completely ignoring its etymology that clearly sheds light on how using it to refer to negative things is homophobic and bigoted.

Cue anti-feminist rant and SJW slurs in 3...2...1...

 

[YmirGF]

You're utterly wrong.

That is so insulting....

 

[Revoltingest]

That is so insulting....

Thank you!
Here's another one.....
You're so old, that you're almost as old as I am!
Hah! Take that, ya cape wear'n, cat evade'n, fly'n mouse!

 

[YmirGF]

Thank you!
Here's another one.....
You're so old, that you're almost as old as I am!
Hah! Take that, ya cape wear'n, cat evade'n, fly'n mouse!

*stalks off ranting to the wind*

 

[SomeRandom]

So I guess you think it would be acceptable if more people called each other "retards" and "camel jockeys" under the banner of reclaiming those terms, right?

You remind me of the people who defend the usage of the word "gay" to refer to negative things as being benign because they have "nothing against homosexuality." They just use the word for its popular meaning, they say, while completely ignoring its etymology that clearly sheds light on how using it to refer to negative things is homophobic and bigoted.

What? You think that words can actually hurt people? You actually think that people are so fragile, so absolutely weak minded that it is your sworn duty to protect them like little children? Pretty condescending, if you ask me. A curry muncher. Or A goat ****er if you prefer. How about a turban wearing rag head? A spicy smelling Indian ****. Go ahead, see what other insults you can call me. Have at it, mate. I'm an adult, I am not afraid of words. I do not give them that much power. So come at me, bro. Let's see what you can do to wound me with your oh so powerful words. I'm legit curious to see what your words can actually do to me.

Oh, but because I don't think people are fragile enough to be utterly destroyed by some idiotic insults I'm a knuckle dragging moron who will use "that's so gay?" (Trust me, my friends have come up with far worse slang than that. Helped along by our very flamboyant queer friends. Example, that's as gay as aids mate.)

This is exactly the crap I was talking about. Political Correctness is so quick to jump to conclusions, so fast to have a knee jerk reaction that instead of having a logical discussion about these problems, any and all dissent is met with you evil SEXIST/HOMOPHOBE/RACIST etc.

And people wonder why there's a pushback against this oversensitive nonsense.

 

[SomeRandom]

Uh yeah. Sure. Things will go over real well if people can just call me a whore or a dyke whenever they feel like it.

You think those words are never or have never been accompanied with violent threats in my direction?

How utterly naive, SR. This isn't a college classroom discussing the theory. This is real ****ing life.

Mate, have you worked in retail? You honestly think that I have never in my life faced an honest to god violent threat before? That I have never faced a barrage of the worst language you could possibly think of?
See, the way I was raised, if an idiot tries that ****, after I stop laughing my *** off at such impotent rage, I'd more than likely kick the assailant in the balls and report him to the local police.
Which is a hell of a lot more polite than my mates (both female and male) would ever be to such illegal bull****.

But I am not talking about violent threats, which are ILLEGAL. I am talking about actually doing something to take away all the power an insult has, instead of charging it up even more and getting stuck at a point where words have power over you.
But you're so right. We should never attempt to arm people with ways to combat that. we should allow them to continuously be at the mercy of words.

 

[Riverwolf]

What? You think that words can actually hurt people?

Words are capable of hurting US. I have felt real, palpable pain simply from other peoples' words. In fact, it's not uncommon for words to be MORE PAINFUL than physical pain.

It's not some hypothetical "other people" we're defending. Most of the time, we're defending OURSELVES.

If you are not, yourself, hurt by words, good for you. You're the lucky exception.

 

[SomeRandom]

Words are capable of hurting US. I have felt real, palpable pain simply from other peoples' words. In fact, it's not uncommon for words to be MORE PAINFUL than physical pain.

It's not some hypothetical "other people" we're defending. Most of the time, we're defending OURSELVES.

If you are not, yourself, hurt by words, good for you. You're the lucky exception.

How can words hurt you? How? I could understand if you already had pretty low self esteem. Or you're in a legit situation where you face organized bullying every single day at your workplace or school.
But how have we gone from "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me" to "ZOMG!! A word!! Kill it with fire before it destroys you and your family!!"

Good god, if words had this unbelievably strong power, no one would be able to work with the public in any sphere without having a mental breakdown.

We are the ones who are supposed to be in control of language, not the other way around.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Mate, have you worked in retail?

Yes I have.

You honestly think that I have never in my life faced an honest to god violent threat before?

I never said you didn't. But I've been called "whore", "****", "c***", and "dyke," under the conditions where I was being threatened. Not in retail though. But in either relationships where I was attempting to leave, where I spoke my mind up at boardroom meetings, and in various cyber-stalking and harassment occurrences.

See, the way I was raised, if an idiot tries that ****, after I stop laughing my *** off at such impotent rage, I'd more than likely kick the assailant in the balls and report him to the local police.
Which is a hell of a lot more polite than my mates (both female and male) would ever be to such illegal bull****.

Good for you. I've defended myself before as well.

Anyhoo, people are free to be *** holes. I have a right to tell people they're being ***holes. It's really that simple. If people get so hostile to being told they're being an ***hole and that I have no right to calling people out for their behavior, then it goes to show the label is more than deserved.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Gaslighting

Mansplaining

Manosphere

Rape apologist

You know, I've been told these words are abusive and hurtful to men. Shoes on the other foot. How to respond?

 

[SomeRandom]

Yes I have.

Well then you know how harsh it can be. The amount of teenagers who have had to "suck it up" when they face insults or violent threats continues to grow each day. And you know something. I have seen them become more confident, stronger and far more resilient as a result. It's really good to see kids grow like that.

I never said you didn't. But I've been called "whore", "****", "c***", and "dyke," under the conditions where I was being threatened. Not in retail though. But in either relationships where I was attempting to leave, where I spoke my mind up at boardroom meetings, and in various cyber-stalking and harassment occurrences.

Did you leave the controlling abusive *******? Hope so. No one deserves that in a relationship.
But that's not every single person who casually throws around epithets or insults. Some of us are from the supposed oppressed group. So it seems like you're equivocating us to domestic abusers? Surely I am mistaken, right?
In a boardroom meeting? Did you report them for unprofessional conduct? Because I don't see that being acceptable even before PC. Just doesn't seem like it would be acceptable regardless of PC.
Did you report such illegal activity to the police? Because again, I don't see how harassment would be considered acceptable before PC was a thing. Maybe far more narrow in definition to be sure.

Anyhoo, people are free to be *** holes. I have a right to tell people they're being ***holes. It's really that simple. If people get so hostile to being told they're being an ***hole and that I have no right to calling people out for their behavior, then it goes to show the label is more than deserved.

I never said that people should be free of being called an *******. If you act like an *******, people should call you an *******. Cause and effect.
I however am saying to legitimately take a closer look at language and actually find ways to combat it's ability to offend people. I am saying that the reclamation of language is a bandaid, that it doesn't actually fix the underlying problems of insulting language. It merely shifts the power from one group to another whilst still allowing those words to have the ability to be used as an attack. We need to be able to have a frank discussion, open up our grievances without everyone being labelled racist or sexist for even considering the possibility that PC sometimes is not the best solution. Those labels are volleyed at dissent so much that they are beginning to lose their power. (See!!)

 

[Riverwolf]

How can words hurt you? How? I could understand if you already had pretty low self esteem. Or you're in a legit situation where you face organized bullying every single day at your workplace or school.

And as it turns out, because I have Asperger's Syndrome, I faced MASSIVE bullying throughout my entire school years. Nearly every single day. I also, therefore, do have pretty low self-esteem.

But how have we gone from "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me" to "ZOMG!! A word!! Kill it with fire before it destroys you and your family!!"

That first one has never been anything more than dismissive, ableist elitism, and frankly should be forgotten; the second one is just... silly. Though if that's truly how you experience this kind of activism, it sure demonstrates the power our words have over you. "ZOMG!! It's the PC police!! Shut them up before they destroy you and your family!!"

Good god, if words had this unbelievably strong power, no one would be able to work with the public in any sphere without having a mental breakdown.

How do you know the bulk of people you see aren't regularly having such breakdowns at home, away from your sight? Our culture does, after all, tell us to keep face while in public, and yet depression and anxiety have basically become epidemic, especially among younger folks.

And I have sufferend anxiety attacks and emotional breakdowns in public. At work, even.