Just making sure you're in a financial position to pay all expenses for the child I didn't want to have. That's my demand if you're going to dictate what comes out of my uterus.
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Abortion is murder
- Thread starter factotum
- Start date
Just making sure you're in a financial position to pay all expenses for the child I didn't want to have. That's my demand if you're going to dictate what comes out of my uterus.
Zoe Doidge
Basically a Goddess
Where abortion is legal it logically can't be murder by definition. Murder is specifically defined as being unlawful.
If you consider the foetus a human being, you could claim it's a homicide.
factotum
Member
homeless people cost nothing? This is news to me, and I live in a town with them. Still, why not give you the benefit of the doubt? Cost to rear a homeless person: Nothing! No, I can't go along with this nonsense. homeless people cost money. You may complain all you like about that, I suppose.
Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
Luckily in these cases the abortion can be done early enough so that what is being removed is really a collection of cells, not a person. For me, the removal is a bigger compassion than allowing the woman and child to suffer the possible psychological consequences.
factotum
Member
First of all, I might or might not be able to pay for your child. My concern is that he or she LIVES. Yes, I would like them to live to see tomorow.Just making sure you're in a financial position to pay all expenses for the child I didn't want to have. That's my demand if you're going to dictate what comes out of my uterus.
I'm not complaining that it costs nothing to raise a homeless person.
I'll tell you what...
Before you judge a rape victim who aborts and call her a "murderer," imagine being in her shoes not being able to afford raising your future child, being abused, traumatized, and on top of it all, having to go through 9 months of pregnancy and its horrors, all the while carrying a child that you conceived through a rapist.
Before you judge a rape victim who aborts and call her a "murderer," you may try to understand why she's aborted her baby instead of placing tradition and conformism over a fellow human being's right to choose what fits her health, well-being, and life the best.
Until then, the only one being "murdered" in this case is the woman who has others making her life-changing choices for her purely out of thoughtless conformism.
factotum
Member
Oh, I see, so I have to pay for your mistakes? But I'm not going to go that route. No. You chose to have a baby? It's "YOURS!" Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you don't want that baby to be yours. I'm fine with that. Just don't kill it. Fair enough? Just don't do it in. Just don't do away with it. Let that poor little girl or guy respond to life in his or her own way. That seems fair, does it not?Just making sure you're in a financial position to pay all expenses for the child I didn't want to have. That's my demand if you're going to dictate what comes out of my uterus.
factotum
Member
"Two wrongs don't make a right." Evil times evil doesn't equal good. If a rape victim decides to do away with her child, she is still wrong. Rape is as wrong as wrong can be. So is murder.
How is a zygote that hasn't even passed one month inside a womb different from, say, sperm? Going by this logic, would wasting sperm equate to "murder"?
Oh yes. I choose to have birth control fail. I choose to get raped. Yup. That makes perfect sense.
It's interesting that whenever you ask the pro-life camp to actually put their money where their mouth is, they never seem to follow through. Forcing women to have children is about more than supposedly saving a life. There's consequences that come after that. That so many pro-lifers ignore those consequences is appallingly illogical.
I'll say it again. If you force me to have a child against my will because you make a law stripping me of any choice in the matter, I demand you pay for it as you made the law. That is my compromise for extremist pro-lifers. You make the law, you pay the cash to support the collateral in full. Put your money where your mouth is or shut up and stay out of my personal reproductive decisions.
It really should be prosecuted as murder? Really?
Then what about a pregnant woman who knows she is pregnant and fully realizes the danger to the fetus but disregards warnings posted and goes on the carnival ride anyway? Is it murder if the fetus aborts?
Then what about a pregnant woman who knows she is pregnant and fully realizes the danger to the fetus but disregards warnings posted and goes on the carnival ride anyway? Is it murder if the fetus aborts?
Draka
Wonder Woman
There are so many facets to this subject that it is hard to take them all on.
I support the legality of abortion because I think it should be available for cases such as rape and other extreme cases where the mother's life may be at risk and other such things. I do not agree with the use of abortion as means of birth control, but in order to keep things legal for good reasons, you must accept the bad along with them. Besides, when it comes down to it, no matter how I feel about abortion, it is not my place, no matter how abhorrent I find the practice, to make decisions for anyone else. This is simply my opinion on the matter.
On a separate note:
Look, I don't particularly like abortion either, but I see that it can serve a purpose in some cases at the very least. But rallying against it by calling all who get one a murderer isn't going to actually accomplish anything. It really isn't. You want to reduce the number of abortions? You want to make a difference? Get out and educate people about different forms of birth control. Hand out condoms. Get involved in some way other than throwing around the word "murderer".
I support the legality of abortion because I think it should be available for cases such as rape and other extreme cases where the mother's life may be at risk and other such things. I do not agree with the use of abortion as means of birth control, but in order to keep things legal for good reasons, you must accept the bad along with them. Besides, when it comes down to it, no matter how I feel about abortion, it is not my place, no matter how abhorrent I find the practice, to make decisions for anyone else. This is simply my opinion on the matter.
On a separate note:
This is not good enough. So much more needs done. It is not enough just to see a baby live. It is to see that they are cared for. Can be cared for. There are many in this world that are sick and starving to death. Malnourished. Abused. Instead of just pushing against abortion like nuts, why not rally for programs that would ensure that the babies that are born have good homes to go to? Have nutritional food and clean water? Have good parents? Just pushing against abortion isn't going to help matters until programs are in place which not only work towards taking care of the babies born, but also work towards reducing the perceived need for abortions in the first place. Namely, education and availability of birth control methods.
Look, I don't particularly like abortion either, but I see that it can serve a purpose in some cases at the very least. But rallying against it by calling all who get one a murderer isn't going to actually accomplish anything. It really isn't. You want to reduce the number of abortions? You want to make a difference? Get out and educate people about different forms of birth control. Hand out condoms. Get involved in some way other than throwing around the word "murderer".
It's not a fully functional human before it reaches a certain point in development, though. I don't think a zygote that hasn't even been inside a woman's uterus for a month is capable of feeling or experiencing anything.
The case we're talking about here is that of a hypothetical raped woman who chooses to abort. If the choice is between forcing a rape victim to carry a rapist's baby to term and performing an abortion, the latter seems to me as the better choice out of the two, by far.
Bismillah
Submit
That is however not the point. The fact is that a zygote will continue to develop past differing embryonic stages, it will have a birth day, it will develop as a child adult and then die as an adult. A zygote will live a human life if given the chance to do so, to compare it to a simple sperm cell is the same as comparing it to epithelial tissue and is a false equivalency of the greatest kind. An abortion should not be done in such a heavy handed or carefree manner, we should never forget that it comes as the price of someone else's life.
I definitely agree a victim has the right to dictate what to do with her body.
Okay, a question for clarification: Do you consider a zygote at the beginning of its development to be of equal value to the life of a fully functioning human being? (This isn't a rhetorical question at all; I'm asking for the sake of clarifying both of our positions on this.)
I don't think that abortion should be done in a heavy-handed or carefree manner either; I just think that it can be necessary in certain situations (e.g. rape or when a woman's health would be severely threatened by a full-term pregnancy).
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Bismillah
Submit
I don't understand the point of the question. For example I consider the safety of the mother to be more than that of the baby or the fact that the mother has the choice, given certain scenarios, to abort a baby. I value a zygote not because for what it is but for what it will become. And it is for that reason that your comparison between a zygote and sperm cell is wrong.
I am an adult right now. I am a conscious, thinking person, capable of feeling pain and expressing my desire to live.
Who would you force to donate blood if I needed it to live? What if someone decided that you should be the one who was forced this way? Would you be okay with giving up your bodily security - the right to choose what happens to your own body - if it meant that I might live?
Do you think that when asking whether you should be forced to give up your blood (or spare kidney, or bone marrow, or anything else), that we shouldn't give you the right to decide what happens to your own body in a "heavy handed or carefree manner"? Do you think that when someone suggests that we should ask your permission before we take your blood, we should say "whoa, whoa... don't be so hasty!"
After all, there are lives - actual lives - in the balance.
If you are prepared to argue that a life (or a potential life) outweighs a person's bodily security, as you must do if you're going to argue the so-called "pro-life" position, are you prepared to do this consistently in other ways? Are you prepared to give up your own rights, or are you only willing to give up the rights of pregnant women?