Abortion Laws

[Madsaac]

Abortion Laws being discussed in Australia Recently

LNP health spokeswoman preferences party that is anti-abortion second on how-to-vote card

The issue of abortion has dogged the LNP during the campaign, with LNP leader David Crisafulli refusing to rule out a conscience vote where MPs are not forced to toe the party line should they win government.

www.abc.net.au

'I would not be able to cope': One of the few women in SA who needed a late-term abortion doesn't agree with changing the laws

Tayla-Jane Jackson had a late-term abortion in 2023 with the agreement of two doctors. She does not want a private member's bill introduced by Liberal MLC Ben Hood to pass parliament.

www.abc.net.au

 

[danieldemol]

Abortion Laws being discussed in Australia Recently

LNP health spokeswoman preferences party that is anti-abortion second on how-to-vote card

The issue of abortion has dogged the LNP during the campaign, with LNP leader David Crisafulli refusing to rule out a conscience vote where MPs are not forced to toe the party line should they win government.

www.abc.net.au

'I would not be able to cope': One of the few women in SA who needed a late-term abortion doesn't agree with changing the laws

Tayla-Jane Jackson had a late-term abortion in 2023 with the agreement of two doctors. She does not want a private member's bill introduced by Liberal MLC Ben Hood to pass parliament.

www.abc.net.au

Looks like imitation of US nonsense in my view, the fewer Australians that fall for this nonsense the better.

From your article, 'Ms Bates said she supported removing abortion from the criminal code, but did not support late-term terminations "without the need for explanation, justification or medical need".'

OP Source: LNP health spokeswoman preferences party that is anti-abortion second on how-to-vote card

Who better to decide an abortion is medically justified than a doctor or two, where is the need to bring ignorant politicians into the picture in my opinion.

 

[GoodAttention]

Who better to decide an abortion is medically justified than a doctor or two, where is the need to bring ignorant politicians into the picture in my opinion.

The Honourable Ros Bates has a point, being that "The 22-week limit for termination with no required reason is far too late".


This goes to the heart of what you consider "medical" justification.
A woman who is generally well and requesting a termination of pregnancy can access that service only because the law allows it.
The practitioner only performs the procedure or authorizes the medication again because the law allows it.

It is a social service, not quite "medically necessary", but also neither elective nor cosmetic.
As such, the legal system, and therefore politicians, need to be involved whether they are ignorant duds or otherwise.

 

[danieldemol]

This goes to the heart of what you consider "medical" justification.

That's my point, it shouldn't go to the heart of what I or any other medically illiterate person considers medical justification, it should be for doctors to decide on medical justification in my view.

Once the law ensures that doctors are consulted on as far as I'm concerned it's done its job.

 

[GoodAttention]

That's my point, it shouldn't go to the heart of what I or any other medically illiterate person considers medical justification, it should be for doctors to decide on medical justification in my view.

Once the law ensures that doctors are consulted on as far as I'm concerned it's done its job.

I'm confused what you are advocating for. Currently the Queensland law passed in 2018 effectively makes the decision on behalf of any woman who is pregnant, and protects any medical practitioner who performs it.

Do you agree or disagree with that legislation?

 

[danieldemol]

I'm confused what you are advocating for. Currently the Queensland law passed in 2018 effectively makes the decision on behalf of any woman who is pregnant, and protects any medical practitioner who performs it.

Do you agree or disagree with that legislation?

I disagree with your understanding of it. Can you cite the relevant section of QLD law that says women legally have to abort against their decision?

 

[Valjean]

That's my point, it shouldn't go to the heart of what I or any other medically illiterate person considers medical justification, it should be for doctors to decide on medical justification in my view.

Once the law ensures that doctors are consulted on as far as I'm concerned it's done its job.

Why should a social justification not be sufficient? Why must Drs. be consulted?

 

[danieldemol]

Why should a social justification not be sufficient? Why must Drs. be consulted?

Do you seriously want people performing backyard abortions? If not how do you propose they obtain one without the help of a relevant medical professional?

 

[GoodAttention]

I disagree with your understanding of it. Can you cite the relevant section of QLD law that says women legally have to abort against their decision?

Again, I am not understanding what you are agreeing or disagreeing with, or the question you are asking.

In Queensland, the Termination of Pregnancy Act 2018 was passed as legislation as per the year in the title.

This allows women in Queensland to access abortion on request up to 22 weeks. The meaning of this is, the decision is made by the pregnant woman herself, and her decision is given legal justification and authorization by the Queensland government. The medical practitioner's only role is to perform the procedure.

Abortion no longer a crime in Queensland after historic vote

History is made in Queensland Parliament, with MPs voting to scrap century-old laws that criminalise abortion — 50 to 41.

www.abc.net.au

 

[GoodAttention]

Do you seriously want people performing backyard abortions? If not how do you propose they obtain one without the help of a relevant medical professional?

I think we have different understandings of the word consulted.

I agree a medical practitioner should be *consulted* to the point of assessing if the pregnancy is under 22 weeks, any risks involved in the medication/procedure, and obtaining consent.

In effect, they are medical "technicians" if such a term could be used, since all autonomy and decision making is effectively in the hands of the woman who is pregnant. The role is therefore solely to provide access to the procedure to the letter of the law, and not a medical opinion that requires "consultation".

However, as I mentioned in comment #3, my personal opinion is the same as MP Ros Bates, being that 22 weeks is far too late.

 

[Subduction Zone]

In the US there was and still is a myth about abortions after the 22nd week. Some states banned it unless medically necessary, but there was no need for it. Of all abortions performed once one gets to the 22 week over 99% of them have already occurred. A less than 1% of all abortions being medically needed abortions does not sound all that unreasonable to me. In the US the cost of abortions that are that late are going to be on the person receiving them unless they are medically necessary. And the number of doctors able to do such abortions is very small and most would likely reject an elective abortion that late. The specialize in people that need those abortions and many of them would take it as an insult if someone wanted to use their hard earned talents for an abortion of convenience.

In other words there is the barrier of very high costs and an inability to find doctors willing to do such abortions unless needed for elective abortions to occur that late in a pregnancy.

 

[We Never Know]

In the US there was and still is a myth about abortions after the 22nd week. Some states banned it unless medically necessary, but there was no need for it. Of all abortions performed once one gets to the 22 week over 99% of them have already occurred. A less than 1% of all abortions being medically needed abortions does not sound all that unreasonable to me. In the US the cost of abortions that are that late are going to be on the person receiving them unless they are medically necessary. And the number of doctors able to do such abortions is very small and most would likely reject an elective abortion that late. The specialize in people that need those abortions and many of them would take it as an insult if someone wanted to use their hard earned talents for an abortion of convenience.

In other words there is the barrier of very high costs and an inability to find doctors willing to do such abortions unless needed for elective abortions to occur that late in a pregnancy.

In 2023 there were an estimated 1,037,000 abortions that were provided by clinicians in states without total bans. That's an increase of 11% from 2020.

So 1,037,000 x 1% = 10,370.

Do you find over 10,000 an acceptable number?

 

[The Hammer]

In 2023 there were an estimated 1,037,000 abortions that were provided by clinicians in states without total bans. That's an increase of 11% from 2020.

So 1,037,000 x 1% = 10,370.

Do you find over 10,000 an acceptable number?

Absolutely

 

[Revoltingest]

In 2023 there were an estimated 1,037,000 abortions that were provided by clinicians in states without total bans. That's an increase of 11% from 2020.

Was that increase the total for just those states?
Or are other states included.

Do you find over 10,000 an acceptable number?

The number is what it is.
That was acceptable to those
who had the procedure, &
therefore acceptable to me.

 

[Subduction Zone]

In 2023 there were an estimated 1,037,000 abortions that were provided by clinicians in states without total bans. That's an increase of 11% from 2020.

So 1,037,000 x 1% = 10,370.

Do you find over 10,000 an acceptable number?

Your statistics seem to be rather suspicious. In fact when I checked out your claim the most recent years that we have numbers for abortions in the US are from 2021 and 2020 according to PEW and yes, this is a recent article:

What the data says about abortion in the U.S.

The U.S. abortion rate has generally declined since the 1980s, but there have been slight upticks in the late 2010s and early 2020s.

www.pewresearch.org

Did you get your numbers from an anti-abortion source? It appears that whatever source that you used that it was lying to you.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Was that increase the total for just those states?
Or are other states included.

The number is what it is.
That was acceptable to those
who had the procedure, &
therefore acceptable to me.

I would have said something very similar. But the numbers sound a bit funny. Now I would expect the abortion rates in states where abortions are legal to go up when other states ban them. There are going to be young women that have to take a trip out of town. But the total number of abortions still should have gone down. And when I checked for reliable sources on those numbers I found that they do not exist yet.

 

[Revoltingest]

I would have said something very similar. But the numbers sound a bit funny. Now I would expect the abortion rates in states where abortions are legal to go up when other states ban them. There are going to be young women that have to take a trip out of town. But the total number of abortions still should have gone down. And when I checked for reliable sources on those numbers I found that they do not exist yet.

Aye, numbers are often cited to suggest
something, but without accurately showing
what is represented.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Aww, some more info. His number was an estimated number. And there and attempts to ban abortions may be responsible for the higher number. It seems counterintuitive, but one thing that many women can do now are home abortions up to ten weeks into a pregnancy. Before Roe v Wade was reversed that was just over half of all abortions. If a person lives in a non-abortion state it is still easy to get medication sent in from another state and they may feel pressure to abort early"

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2024/03/19/1238293143/abortion-data-how-many-us-2023

 

[Subduction Zone]

Aye, numbers are often cited to suggest
something, but without accurately showing
what is represented.

Yes, I kept looking and found that the numbers he gave were estimated numbers and the rise may be due to banning legal abortions. Read the article that I linked.

 

[danieldemol]

However, as I mentioned in comment #3, my personal opinion is the same as MP Ros Bates, being that 22 weeks is far too late.

Well if you want a law overturned it usually helps to explain using a rational reason why you think 22 weeks is far too late in my view.

Merely saying that you agree with some extreme minority opinion is unlikely to sway anyone the way I see it.