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Abortion = Manslaughter??

linwood

Well-Known Member
I just read this...

Two teens may face charges after they allegedly used a baseball bat in an attempt to abort a fetus, according to Local 4 reports......
After an investigation, Michigan State Police determined that prior to the miscarriage, the girl and a 16-year-old boy -- the father of the unborn child -- may have attempted to abort the fetus.....
No charges have been filed, but Smith said the two teens may face charges as serious as manslaughter.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/3924005/detail.html?subid=22100415&qs=1;bp=t

I believe Pah said in an earlier thread that the reason the killing of a fetus through violence towards the mother was considered murder or manslaughter was due to lack of consent on the mothers part.

Why is this girl possibly facing manslaughter charges for aborting her own fetus?


 

huajiro

Well-Known Member
I think next time a teenager wants to abort a fetus like that, they should aim for their own head. That will avoid any future problems.
 

Ardhanariswar

I'm back!
theres a difference. i like abortion when its just a small embreyo. not an an actualy baby around 6-9 months. after that, i dotn know. its probably wrong to abort it, but the gilr should have been more discreet in aborting it. i really dont know...
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
I think next time a teenager wants to abort a fetus like that, they should aim for their own head. That will avoid any future problems.
I agree but I want to make a different point.

theres a difference. i like abortion when its just a small embreyo. not an an actualy baby around 6-9 months. after that, i dotn know. its probably wrong to abort it, but the gilr should have been more discreet in aborting it.
I would argue it`s wrong to abort it in the third trimester too but the point I`m trying to clarify is the morality behind the legality here.

If abortion is legal due to the reasoning that a female has a right to do what she wishes with her body then how did this girl break the law?
Is there a law that states abortion can only be performed a certain way?

Someone argued earlier in a different thread using the Scott Peterson case that if a fetus isn`t considered a human with all the rights that come with being a human in our society then why did Peterson get indicted for murdering his unborn child?

Pah answered that he was indicted because he took the choice away from Lacy Peterson (Scotts wife) and killed the child without her consent.

My point here is that this girl obviously consented to aborting this fetus and yet she may very well face criminal charges for doing so.

I believe this is a double standard, either a fetus is a person with all the rights and protection under the law that people in our society are guaranteed or a fetus is not a person and has no rights or protection.

You can`t have it both ways...it`s hypocrisy.

Unless of course there is some other law somewhere that states you cannot abort your own fetus, which is what I`m asking Pah here since he knows far more about the legalities of abortion than I.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
If nothing elce the brutality of this is disturbing.

How much did the girl go along with this plan? I cant imagine being willing to submit to a beating to cause a 'natural' abortion. But hey people do crazy things.

The legality of charging her may lie in the age of the fetus in question. Since they are trying to figure out the age of the fetus that means that it may under the law be too old for aborting. Thus the fetus counts as a victem of manslaughter though not murder. If under that legal age then the fetus doesn't count as a victem of manslaughter and they will only be charged for assult (on the boy) and illiagal disposal of remains and whatever elce they can charge them for.

The legality of charging the girl lies in the age of the fetus. This is why the article states that they MAY be charged as high as manslaughter. It will depend on the autopsy.

hope this helps.

wa:do
 

Pah

Uber all member
If abortion is legal due to the reasoning that a female has a right to do what she wishes with her body then how did this girl break the law?
Is there a law that states abortion can only be performed a certain way?

I believe so, but it doesn't come up in Google though it may be buried in the results.

Bob
 

huajiro

Well-Known Member
linwood said:
I agree but I want to make a different point.


I would argue it`s wrong to abort it in the third trimester too but the point I`m trying to clarify is the morality behind the legality here.

If abortion is legal due to the reasoning that a female has a right to do what she wishes with her body then how did this girl break the law?
Is there a law that states abortion can only be performed a certain way?

Someone argued earlier in a different thread using the Scott Peterson case that if a fetus isn`t considered a human with all the rights that come with being a human in our society then why did Peterson get indicted for murdering his unborn child?

Pah answered that he was indicted because he took the choice away from Lacy Peterson (Scotts wife) and killed the child without her consent.

My point here is that this girl obviously consented to aborting this fetus and yet she may very well face criminal charges for doing so.

I believe this is a double standard, either a fetus is a person with all the rights and protection under the law that people in our society are guaranteed or a fetus is not a person and has no rights or protection.

You can`t have it both ways...it`s hypocrisy.

Unless of course there is some other law somewhere that states you cannot abort your own fetus, which is what I`m asking Pah here since he knows far more about the legalities of abortion than I.
They should put something in the drinking water to make us all sterile until we show that we are capable of being parents.
 

Mystic

Member
A baseball bat? That's just plain sick. Someone should drop-kick both of them. Unless the mother didn't consent.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
There is something unsettling about the whole topic, and I admit that I am torn between opposing sides. I do know this: I have three wonderful and productive children (I had a 4th but she died a few years ago) and had anyone killed one of them in utero, it would have looked and felt very much like murder to me.
 

huajiro

Well-Known Member
Deut. 32.8 said:
There is something unsettling about the whole topic, and I admit that I am torn between opposing sides. I do know this: I have three wonderful and productive children (I had a 4th but she died a few years ago) and had anyone killed one of them in utero, it would have looked and felt very much like murder to me.
I am sorry to hear about your daughter
 

Faust

Active Member
Perhaps I'm not as old as I think I am, but I have reached an age where I have to consider that the sageacity that I attempt to empart may add up to nothing more than the unfortunate sounds that my body creates with growing enthusiasm.:eek:
However I can not resist another attempt at speaking from my place on high.(he he whoops! don't look down!)
Many so called primitives believe that even after birth one does not become a human being until certain milestones are reached. Some for example one year, on up to puberty or beyond to some form of induction rights into the adult society. I believe this is due to mortality rates in less technologically advanced societies. This is a value system that continues to evolve towards the fetus as life expectancy increases in all societies.( I am not claiming this to be true across the board. ) In modern American society we are not only coming to terms with advances in health care, we are also colliding with our redefinition of spiritual values under the pressures of modernity.
It was not uncommon in my time for people to use natural substances to abort an unwanted fetus ( codliver oil, penaroil, are these "old wifes tales"?, someone please correct me if I'm wrong here) But although these matters were common knowledge they were not discussed openly in society as a matter of good form. There were also doctors who would perform the procedure in a hush hush underworld and the dangerous and sinister back alley procedures performed by often grossly under qualified individuals for a "price" that often ended in tragedy, also not discussed in proper society.
I fear that if we are not careful we may be headed back in the direction of a less informed underworld where abortion is performed but not acknowledged by society as a matter of propriety so that we may bare witness to our rightiousness and hide our dirty little secrets behind closed doors in a false representation of our values.
I know that some of you may take the position that birth control amounts to promoting promiscuity, but coming from a time when the alternatives where so gastly, I can not but think that this is the time for us to overcome our smoke and mirror deceptions and deal with sex openly and honestly with ourselves and our children. We can speak not only of abstinence, but also protection from unwanted pregnancy and disease. I feel that if these young ladies had been offered balanced council from responsible elders and a responsible society that things may not have taken the coarse that they did.
 

Faust

Active Member
I'm sorry,
I neglected to make my final point which is the point of this thread.
In times gone by this incident may well have never come to press. It could just as well have been another dirty little secret better befitting a society that chooses to disregard human nature and sexuality in favor of the illusion of propriety.
Unfortunatly I do not see a positive outcome in this matter, but rather a resolution based on the contortions of a society in transition towards who knows what end.
 

kreeden

Virus of the Mind
Doesn't anyone other then me think that something is terroribly wrong when two children have to go to such extremes as beating one of them with a bat .... ?

As for the what the laws say about it , I have no idea . We have to redefine the meanings of many things these days , such as " what is Life ? " , as your old definations appear to be very outdated . I think that these children need help . That a society where this can happen needs a good hard look . As Faust says , we haven't came as far as we like to think .
 

skills101

Vicar of Christ
linwood said:
Why is this girl possibly facing manslaughter charges for aborting her own fetus?
I read through the story, but I can't seem to find where it says what month she was at. Perhaps she had this little abortion past the first trimester.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
I read through the story, but I can't seem to find where it says what month she was at. Perhaps she had this little abortion past the first trimester.
This is still legal is it not?
 

skills101

Vicar of Christ
linwood said:
This is still legal is it not?
I believe late-term (after fetal viability) abortions are restricted (allowed in cases where it hurts the mother) in most states.

Please correct me if I'm wrong though.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
skills101 said:
I believe late-term (after fetal viability) abortions are restricted (allowed in cases where it hurts the mother) in most states.

Please correct me if I'm wrong though.
I dunno...I thought they were just talking about third trimester or partial birth.

I may very well be wrong and some of the uncertainty might come from different laws in different states.

It would help to know how far along she was.

I`ll keep an eye on the story to see if I can get more info.
 

Lily

New Member
I cant believe some of what I have been reading. Hit the mother in the head! Who do you think you are. She was probably uneducated about the services offered or scared about what her parents would say and think!
 
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