Abortion

[Walkntune]

Then you are left with instability.

I guess its better than a false illusion of control.

 

[Curious George]

I guess its better than a false illusion of control.

Just as long as we realize the full consequences of our wants.

 

[Walkntune]

Just as long as we realize the full consequences of our wants.

I don't want an abortion.

 

[Curious George]

I don't want an abortion.

that is not what I meant.

I would suggest that the world would endure far more suffering without "forcing morality through politics" Civil rights, human rights, and many ideals which we hold dear "life, liberty and property" are substantiated by morality. Without that morality we would lose these. I am happy that many countries enforce this morality. I would agree that some degree of illusion of control stems from this process, however some degree of actual control does as well.

 

[Walkntune]

that is not what I meant.

I would suggest that the world would endure far more suffering without "forcing morality through politics" Civil rights, human rights, and many ideals which we hold dear "life, liberty and property" are substantiated by morality. Without that morality we would lose these. I am happy that many countries enforce this morality. I would agree that some degree of illusion of control stems from this process, however some degree of actual control does as well.

I believe we would be better off if we just simply walked in Love. It is freely given and recieved and can never be enforced by a law nor does it come against any.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And to be honest with all ya'll I respect your opinions..But as I typed a couple of my posts I was holding my now 3 month old infant grand daughter..it makes me sick and disgusted anyone would say she should have been "delivered" 3 months early and would still be in the hospital and upon release be blind ,brain damaged permanently...and many other things because her mother "wanted her body back"..for me? that's for sociopaths.

Im pro choice..but I'm not pro choice no matter how much your born fetus now "person" has to suffer .Im also against murdering a viable fetus after birth..or refusing it aid after birth..

So have at it...

Would you feel any differently if your granddaughter had needed an organ transplant, but the family of the matching donor decided that rather than let your granddaughter have it, they'd cremate the body whole without harvesting any organs? That family has the right to put the bodily security of their child's corpse ahead of the well-being of your granddaughter... even if it means sentencing her to a life of suffering or even death.

And that's all just for a corpse, not even a living, thinking, feeling human being.

Edit: it makes me sick to think that someone would bury perfectly good organs rather than give them to someone in need, but I still support their right to do it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Thank you for bending my words.



Read my reply to her just above this post.

Your reply didn't answer my question.

 

[Koldo]

Your reply didn't answer my question.

No, it should not be taken against your will.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, it should not be taken against your will.

Any time that a pregnant woman wants an abortion or to end the pregnancy by inducing labour, it would be against her will to continue the pregnancy.

 

[Koldo]

Any time that a pregnant woman wants an abortion or to end the pregnancy by inducing labour, it would be against her will to continue the pregnancy.

And...?

 

[DallasApple]

Would you feel any differently if your granddaughter had needed an organ transplant, but the family of the matching donor decided that rather than let your granddaughter have it, they'd cremate the body whole without harvesting any organs? That family has the right to put the bodily security of their child's corpse ahead of the well-being of your granddaughter... even if it means sentencing her to a life of suffering or even death.

And that's all just for a corpse, not even a living, thinking, feeling human being.

Edit: it makes me sick to think that someone would bury perfectly good organs rather than give them to someone in need, but I still support their right to do it.

The difference to me is the absence of any responsibility to donate the organ.And they did not "cause" my grandaughter's organ to fail in the first place.

If I was sitting here in a wheel chair right now..with brain damage unable to lead a normal life..and it was because my mother decided to have me delivered way before I was due because she decided she didn't want to be pregnant anymore.Knowing I would be born alive but with serious health issues..then SHE is responsible for my suffering every day of my life.It would be along the same lines as if she had done all kinds of recreational drugs and drank large amounts of alcohol the whole pregnancy. Knowing full good and well the damage it would do just because it was her body and she could do what she wanted with it.It would be her fault and I would blame her.She would be the direct cause of my suffering.And again I would see that as unethical on her part.

Unlike If after I was born ...at some point I had a failing organ.And someone who had nothing to do with my organ failing would not donate theirs to save me.They aren't responsible for my existence or my failing organ.

My mother is responsible after conception that I was born period.She therefore is responsible for the choices she made during pregnancy and how it affects me now.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

The difference to me is the absence of any responsibility to donate the organ.And they did not "cause" my grandaughter's organ to fail in the first place.

If I was sitting here in a wheel chair right now..with brain damage unable to lead a normal life..and it was because my mother decided to have me delivered way before I was due because she decided she didn't want to be pregnant anymore.Knowing I would be born alive but with serious health issues..then SHE is responsible for my suffering every day of my life.It would be along the same lines as if she had done all kinds of recreational drugs and drank large amounts of alcohol the whole pregnancy. Knowing full good and well the damage it would do just because it was her body and she could do what she wanted with it.It would be her fault and I would blame her.She would be the direct cause of my suffering.And again I would see that as unethical on her part.

Unlike If after I was born ...at some point I had a failing organ.And someone who had nothing to do with my organ failing would not donate theirs to save me.They aren't responsible for my existence or my failing organ.

My mother is responsible after conception that I was born period.She therefore is responsible for the choices she made during pregnancy and how it affects me now.

You're confusing risk assessment with causation. If your mother decided to induce labor early, it doesn't "cause" health problems. It's a higher risk of health complications for life. My mother also bottle-fed me, wrapped me tightly in a crib that likely had toxic paint all over it, put me to sleep on my stomach, and didn't have a heated house (those nights were freezing). I wound up having health problems my whole life, but I won't look at my mother at being responsible for my problems.

You know, you may be bitter and hold grudges for the rest of your life blaming your mother for whatever choices she may or may not have made, but I don't operate that way. My mother did the best she could with what she had at the time and with the knowledge she had. Between you and me, I'd find a way to forgive and move on. Even if she decided one day to induce labor rather than my birth being what put me at higher risk for health complications.

Which they DID.

 

[Koldo]

You're confusing risk assessment with causation. If your mother decided to induce labor early, it doesn't "cause" health problems. It's a higher risk of health complications for life

I can see why you would think of it like this.
But...

Imagine that person A beats up person B. Person B got unconscious and was taken to a hopistal for intensive care. On this case, person A puts person B's life at a high risk. One or two weeks later, person B does die.
Did person A cause person B's death?

I am comparing both situations because in both cases it involves someone willingly putting another person's life at risk.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I can see why you would think of it like this.
But...

Imagine that person A beats up person B. Person B got unconscious and was taken to a hopistal for intensive care. On this case, person A puts person B's life at a high risk. One or two weeks later, person B does die.
Did person A cause person B's death?

I am comparing both situations because in both cases it involves someone willingly putting another person's life at risk.

Wow. Talk about hyperbole. I can smell the exaggeration in this thread from a mile away with your example.

I'd say that the risk is much closer to what formula feeding does to a persons health than beating somebody up. There's been evidence floating around for a while how formula feeding an infant or placing them on their stomachs to sleep increases the risk of SIDS. I'd argue against parents being demonized for making such a decision, but it seems as if your position is that a woman who decides to induce an early labor is being compared to physical assault and a sociopath.

I find that comparison appalling. It's comparable to a woman from a pro-life point of view who decides to have an abortion when a heartbeat is detected to be described as a "murderer." Which is just as vile.

Something to consider....there are NICU staff that are more knowledgeable about the ethics regarding labor inducement and preterm infant care in regards to the risks involved with preterm birth. And if there was a life full of horrible debilitating health conditions, they will refuse to revive the newborn. They have their own safeguard against ethically intervening to save a life if that life carries with it a high risk of debilitating health complications.

Perhaps its best we don't argue with them since they are the experts in this field, instead of moralizing against such medical ethics decisions by resorting to appeals to emotion and hyperbole.

 

[DallasApple]

You know, you may be bitter and hold grudges for the rest of your life blaming your mother for whatever choices she may or may not have made, but I don't operate that way.

Excuse me? I am not bitter nor do I hold grudges towards my mother. There is a difference in holding a parent responsible for their actions or non actions and holding grudges and bitterness...Its no different than giving parents credit and gratitude for the good and right things they did that had a positive affect/influence on you. That they did for you that they did not have to.Health wise or other wise..

And besides I don't compare bottle feeding and not being able to afford heat and Im sure unknowingly using a crib with toxic paint. To deliberately delivering a baby early with the liklihood they will be BORN with severe health issues just because you don't want to be pregnant anymore..

I'm not talking about an expectation of a perfect mother who NEVER knowingly or unknowingly does anything that turns out not to be the absolute best for the child.But doing something that you KNOW will put YOUR child at risk with a high liklihood for serious CRITICAL health issues from the day its BORN and for the rest of its life is absolutely cold hearted..And yes I would hold my mother responsible.

Your no heat in the house example? What if mother could only afford to heat one room and she chose to heat hers because she didn't like being cold.. and left you in a freezing room every night... and because you were a small child you kept getting pneumonia and she knew that was the cause .but she continued..and you ended up with permanently scarred lungs with breathing difficulties so severe you now were very limited as to your ability to function normally for the rest of your life let alone be a dancer because of it.What if chose specifically toxic paint KNOWING the damage it could cause because it was cheaper because she wanted to use the money she saved for one trip the beauty salon..and you end up with brain damage struggling your whole life to learn .

To me there is a clear difference in doing the best you can as a mother and not being perfect and yeah even sometimes being selfish......and deliberately acting in a manner out of pure selfishness which carries extreme risks of extreme damage to your child where they don't have a chance to have a normal life/filled with enormous struggles with limited quality in their existence.

And by the way anything I have done wrong with my kids? Either knowingly or unknowingly I have remorse for and Im not afraid to admit or take responsibility for any harm I have caused my children because of it.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Excuse me? I am not bitter nor do I hold grudges towards my mother. There is a difference in holding a parent responsible for their actions or non actions and holding grudges and bitterness...Its no different than giving parents credit and gratitude for the good and right things they did that had a positive affect/influence on you. That they did for you that they did not have to.Health wise or other wise..

Dude, I'm calling you out for your insistence you would blame your mother for your health problems for inducing early. When you say "blame", there's hostility and bitterness. You could move on and live your life.

And besides I don't compare bottle feeding and not being able to afford heat and Im sure unknowingly using a crib with toxic paint. To deliberately delivering a baby early with the liklihood they will be BORN with severe health issues just because you don't want to be pregnant anymore..

Like I said to Koldo, plenty of NICU staff will refuse to resuscitate a preterm newborn if they are aware of the high risk of debilitating health complications. Your argument is invalid when you only want to demonize the woman.

I'm not talking about an expectation of a perfect mother who NEVER knowingly or unknowingly does anything that turns out not to be the absolute best for the child.But doing something that you KNOW will put YOUR child at risk with a high liklihood for serious CRITICAL health issues from the day its BORN and for the rest of its life is absolutely cold hearted..And yes I would hold my mother responsible.

I know plenty of people who were born preterm who grew up just fine. I'm one with health problems. I, unlike you, would not blame my mother if the early labor and delivery was her choice.

Your no heat in the house example? What if mother could only afford to heat one room and she chose to heat hers because she didn't like being cold.. and left you in a freezing room every night... and because you were a small child you kept getting pneumonia and she knew that was the cause .but she continued..and you ended up with permanently scarred lungs with breathing difficulties so severe you now were very limited as to your ability to function normally for the rest of your life let alone be a dancer because of it.What if chose specifically toxic paint KNOWING the damage it could cause because it was cheaper because she wanted to use the money she saved for one trip the beauty salon..and you end up with brain damage struggling your whole life to learn .

Yeah, like I said to Koldo.....there's a lot of ridiculous hyperbole and appeal to emotion here. Your arguments are no better than pro-lifers who compare women who have elective abortions "murderers."

To me there is a clear difference in doing the best you can as a mother and not being perfect and yeah even sometimes being selfish......and deliberately acting in a manner out of pure selfishness which carries extreme risks of extreme damage to your child where they don't have a chance to have a normal life/and enormous struggles with limited quality in their existence.

A woman who makes a decision to not put her body at any more risk is not acting out of pure selfishness. You can stop the demonizing and histrionics because it isn't helping your argument.

And by the way anything I have done wrong with my kids? Either knowingly or unknowingly I have remorse for and Im not afraid to admit or take responsibility any harm I have caused my children because of it.

Sure you do. I also doubt you'd take kindly to being considered sociopathic for what you may or may not have done, too.

 

[Koldo]

Wow. Talk about hyperbole. I can smell the exaggeration in this thread from a mile away with your example.

I'd say that the risk is much closer to what formula feeding does to a persons health than beating somebody up. There's been evidence floating around for a while how formula feeding an infant or placing them on their stomachs to sleep increases the risk of SIDS.

I'd argue against parents being demonized for making such a decision, but it seems as if your position is that a woman who decides to induce an early labor is being compared to physical assault and a sociopath.

I find that comparison appalling. It's comparable to a woman from a pro-life point of view who decides to have an abortion when a heartbeat is detected to be described as a "murderer." Which is just as vile.

I am comparing an aspect on both circumstances, rather than the situation as a whole. Although, i do think of induced labor, on certain occasions, as similar ( not completely equal ) to physical assault.

Something to consider....there are NICU staff that are more knowledgeable about the ethics regarding labor inducement and preterm infant care in regards to the risks involved with preterm birth. And if there was a life full of horrible debilitating health conditions, they will refuse to revive the newborn. They have their own safeguard against ethically intervening to save a life if that life carries with it a high risk of debilitating health complications.

Perhaps its best we don't argue with them since they are the experts in this field, instead of moralizing against such medical ethics decisions by resorting to appeals to emotion and hyperbole.

Hold on. Do you mean to say that an expert's opinion on the medical area renders our own opinion about ethics unimportant?

By the way, if there is someone making an appeal to emotion here, it is not me.

 

[DallasApple]

. If your mother decided to induce labor early, it doesn't "cause" health problems.

Neither is if you put your baby in the middle of a dimly lit road "the cause " of its health problems if it gets hit by a car ..survives but is severely disabled for the rest of its life.The mother did not 'cause" the injuries but she sure as hell is responsible in my opinion.

 

[Koldo]

Neither is if you put your baby in the middle of a dimly lit road "the cause " of its health problems if it gets hit by a car ..survives but is severely disabled for the rest of its life.The mother did not 'cause" the injuries but she sure as hell is responsible in my opinion.

That won't work.
Unless you present a completely comparable situation in ( evoked ) emotion, that will not work.

 

[DallasApple]

Dude, I'm calling you out for your insistence you would blame your mother for your health problems for inducing early. When you say "blame", there's hostility and bitterness. You could move on and live your life.

Yes I "would" BLAME my mother because she would be responsible for it.It would be a fact of my life ...that does not translate to hostility or bitterness .It would be just a fact of MY life..If someone asked me where my disabilities came from I would say I was born premature.If they asked me why I was born premature I would because my mother chose (fact) to have me delivered early because she did not want to be pregnant anymore (fact) .How is it bitterness or hostile to tell the truth?She would be to blame period.

And honestly I don't appreciate you arguing with me about how I feel.If I say I don't feel hostility or bitterness you pretty much saying "yes you do' is arrogant.Its one of my pet peeves in fact.Is having another person think they can tell me or they know better what emotions I'm experiencing in spite of the fact I say I feel otherwise.Like its a matter of "opinion " how I feel inside.