Abrahamic Faiths Only: Was everyone who died in "the Flood" wicked?

[Katzpur]

Christians, Muslims and Jews all presumably believe to one extent or another in Old Testament story of Noah and "the Flood." Some may interpret it literally, others less so. Regardless of how that fits into your answer, please explain how you believe it supposedly came to pass that only Noah and his family did not perish but instead lived to start the human race anew. Do you believe that Noah or others in his family literally contacted every person in the world to warn them all of the impending flood and that all of them rejected the prophecy? Or do you believe that many "innocent" people also died in the flood (innocent in the respect that they never heard the warning and therefore could not be held accountable for not believing Noah). Why would God have required people to die who might have heeded Noah's warning? Or did that happen? Is it possible that the flood was "worldwide" only with respect to what Noah knew about the world and that he actually was able to warn everyone in the world as he knew it? Could people in other parts of the world have never had their lives touched by this event?

 

[Dunemeister]

That's what the story says:

Genesis 6:1-8
When people began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that they were fair; and they took wives for themselves of all that they chose. Then YHWH said, ‘My spirit shall not abide in mortals for ever, for they are flesh; their days shall be one hundred and twenty years.’ The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterwards—when the sons of God went in to the daughters of humans, who bore children to them. These were the heroes that were of old, warriors of renown.

YHWH saw that the wickedness of humankind was great in the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually. And the Lord was sorry that he had made humankind on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the Lord said, ‘I will blot out from the earth the human beings I have created—people together with animals and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.’ But Noah found favour in the sight of the Lord.

After the flood and Noah emerges to worship God, Genesis 8:20-22:

Then Noah built an altar to YHWH, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt-offerings on the altar. And when YHWH smelt the pleasing odour, the Lord said in his heart, ‘I will never again curse the ground because of humankind, for the inclination of the human heart is evil from youth; nor will I ever again destroy every living creature as I have done.
As long as the earth endures,
seedtime and harvest, cold and heat,
summer and winter, day and night,
shall not cease.’

The point here isn't that the babies were born evil. (This isn't a pre-Christian argument for original sin.) Rather, the point is that society had gotten so sick by this point in the story that it was impossible for children to grow up to be decent, loving human beings. They were bound to become foul, despicable, evil people.

 

[Dunemeister]

Do you believe that Noah or others in his family literally contacted every person in the world to warn them all of the impending flood and that all of them rejected the prophecy?

No, but there he was for 120 years building a big boat in the middle of nowhere. Certainly if people had any sense of curiosity, they could have asked him what he was doing.

Or do you believe that many "innocent" people also died in the flood (innocent in the respect that they never heard the warning and therefore could not be held accountable for not believing Noah).

They were not held accountable for not believing Noah. They were held accountable for their wickedness, for which they should have been properly shocked and dismayed.

Why would God have required people to die who might have heeded Noah's warning? Or did that happen?

They had become thoroughly corrupt. They might have heeded Noah had they talked with him, but my faith in the goodness of God suggests that God would not have let such a person be destroyed.

Is it possible that the flood was "worldwide" only with respect to what Noah knew about the world and that he actually was able to warn everyone in the world as he knew it? Could people in other parts of the world have never had their lives touched by this event?

This is entirely possible.

 

[Katzpur]

No, but there he was for 120 years building a big boat in the middle of nowhere. Certainly if people had any sense of curiosity, they could have asked him what he was doing.

LOL! Yeah, I'd forgotten that it took him more than a couple of weeks to build it. I guess word would have gotten around. I don't know what the population of the world was at around that time, but it does seem pretty probable that huge numbers of people never knew what was going on.

They were not held accountable for not believing Noah. They were held accountable for their wickedness, for which they should have been properly shocked and dismayed.

Yes, but God's prophets generally call people to repentence and those who obey are blessed for doing so. It's just hard for me to believe that everyone in the world was so wicked that God would have decided to kill them. There have to have been some good people who lost their lives in the flood.

They had become thoroughly corrupt. They might have heeded Noah had they talked with him, but my faith in the goodness of God suggests that God would not have let such a person be destroyed.

I've got to agree with you, which is just one more reason why I have a hard time believing the flood actually destroyed all life on earth, or that it was literally "worldwide."

 

[xkatz]

I have always been curious about this story. I wonder if it's possible that it's a metaphorical reference to the Toba catastrophe Toba catastrophe theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia which basically killed of most of the human population, causing a genetic bottleneck. However, it's probably unlikely since it happened before stories were written or told.

 

[Watchmen]

This is a tough one for me - something I need to ponder. As you know, there's a lot I don't take literally. However, I have always believed in the literal baptism of the earth - both by water and by fire. I always attributed the Flood to being the baptism by water, but I'm not certain it covered all the earth. And if it didn't cover all the earth is it really baptism by LDS standards? Doesn't seem so.

But I digress. I believe "innocent" people did die in the Flood (I use quotes because none of us are truly innocent as we have not been perfected yet). When the earth is baptized by fire, innocent people will suffer and die then too. I know people will point to such beliefs as so-called evidence that God is bad - but we know those people will have their place in heaven.

 

[Zardoz]

No, but there he was for 120 years building a big boat in the middle of nowhere. Certainly if people had any sense of curiosity, they could have asked him what he was doing.
...

I thought it was 70 years. Still a long time, everyone knew about him and why he was doing that. However, I do think it was a rather localized event, not global.

 

[PurpleM]

Somehow in our country yes it is indeed true

 

[RomCat]

God makes the rain fall on the good and the bad.

 

[Dunemeister]

LOL! Yeah, I'd forgotten that it took him more than a couple of weeks to build it. I guess word would have gotten around. I don't know what the population of the world was at around that time, but it does seem pretty probable that huge numbers of people never knew what was going on.

I'd go so far as to say that it is more than probable. It was so.

Yes, but God's prophets generally call people to repentence and those who obey are blessed for doing so. It's just hard for me to believe that everyone in the world was so wicked that God would have decided to kill them. There have to have been some good people who lost their lives in the flood.

Why think so? Abraham (much later) asked YHWH, "Would you slay the righteous along with the wicked?" The assumed answer to the question is "Of course not." Same goes here. God does not slay the righteous along with the wicked. His judgments are not a blunt instrument, sweeping away swaths of righteous people just so he can vent his spleen.

I've got to agree with you, which is just one more reason why I have a hard time believing the flood actually destroyed all life on earth, or that it was literally "worldwide."

I have no opinion about whether the flood was global or local. But I have no problem believing that the whole world (yes, all of it) could become so thoroughly corrupt that the only possible response for setting things aright would be to destroy the whole shabang. I have every faith in the human tendency toward evil. Our selfishness was our undoing before and will be so again. It is only because of the mercy of God (providing the ark and protecting the last righteous family) that humankind was saved before. And it is only the mercy of God that will save us in the future (new ark: Christ, who saves those who have faith in him).

 

[idea]

Christians, Muslims and Jews all presumably believe to one extent or another in Old Testament story of Noah and "the Flood." Some may interpret it literally, others less so. Regardless of how that fits into your answer, please explain how you believe it supposedly came to pass that only Noah and his family did not perish but instead lived to start the human race anew. Do you believe that Noah or others in his family literally contacted every person in the world to warn them all of the impending flood and that all of them rejected the prophecy? Or do you believe that many "innocent" people also died in the flood (innocent in the respect that they never heard the warning and therefore could not be held accountable for not believing Noah). Why would God have required people to die who might have heeded Noah's warning? Or did that happen? Is it possible that the flood was "worldwide" only with respect to what Noah knew about the world and that he actually was able to warn everyone in the world as he knew it? Could people in other parts of the world have never had their lives touched by this event?

The righteous during the time of Noah were in two groups.

Group 1 - Zion
69 And Enoch and all his people walked with God, and he dwelt in the midst of Zion; and it came to pass that Zion was not, for God received it up into his own bosom; and from thence went forth the saying, ZION IS FLED.
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 7:69)

Group 2 - Noah and family.

All of the righteous were saved either - translated with Zion, or on the boat.

 

[idea]

This is a tough one for me - something I need to ponder. As you know, there's a lot I don't take literally. However, I have always believed in the literal baptism of the earth - both by water and by fire. I always attributed the Flood to being the baptism by water, but I'm not certain it covered all the earth. And if it didn't cover all the earth is it really baptism by LDS standards? Doesn't seem so.

I think it had to be total immertion... now how deep it was? I don't know... perhaps a flood in some areas, while just rain/wet in others? Either way, it was a full immersion.

But I digress. I believe "innocent" people did die in the Flood (I use quotes because none of us are truly innocent as we have not been perfected yet). When the earth is baptized by fire, innocent people will suffer and die then too. I know people will point to such beliefs as so-called evidence that God is bad - but we know those people will have their place in heaven.

Yes, I don't see a way around children being killed... I guess there was group 3 - the kids.


innocent kids die here:
10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.
11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the bjudgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.
(Book of Mormon | Alma 14:10 - 11)

I think the same sort of thing held sway - innocent received in glory. Their blood a witness against their parents...

 

[Just_me_Mike]

The simple observation is that, if it happened as described, God could foresee that only the 8 that were saved, were the last to ever believe or love God. Since he is God he could looking to the future of those on the planet on know they were all dung.

The future of anyone else that would love God would come from Noah's loins.

Other than that, there is no answer.

 

[jtartar]

This is a tough one for me - something I need to ponder. As you know, there's a lot I don't take literally. However, I have always believed in the literal baptism of the earth - both by water and by fire. I always attributed the Flood to being the baptism by water, but I'm not certain it covered all the earth. And if it didn't cover all the earth is it really baptism by LDS standards? Doesn't seem so.

But I digress. I believe "innocent" people did die in the Flood (I use quotes because none of us are truly innocent as we have not been perfected yet). When the earth is baptized by fire, innocent people will suffer and die then too. I know people will point to such beliefs as so-called evidence that God is bad - but we know those people will have their place in heaven.

Watchmen,
There is no indication that the flood was a baptism of any kind. The scriptures tell us plainly that the earth was flooded because the people had become so wicked, Gen 6:5, 11-13.
The Bible does use several forms of speech, hyperbole being one, but there is no indication that the flood account was anything but an actual fact. Consider some of the scriptures that make it impossible to have been a localized flood. Noah was in the ark for a year and ten days, Gen 7:11-13,16-20, Gen 8:13,14. Notice that the water increased on the earth until it was about 22 feet above the mountains. Water that high, even though the mountains were not as high as today, could not be contained in one place on earth.
Today, scientists have found evidence that there was an earthwide flood.
The Bible tells us that the earth of today is stored up for FIRE, 2Pet 3:5-7. Just as in Noah's day the earth itself will not be destroyed, but the scriptures say the ungodly will be destroyed, the same as in Noah's day. No innocent ones were put to death in Noah's day, and only the ungodly will be put to death today, in fact very shortly. We have been living in a time comparable to Noah's day since 1914, when the First World War was started. The earth has grown ever more wicked since then.
The earth will not be destroyed completely with fire. The Holy Bible tells us that it is the fire of God's zeal that will destroy the ungodly, Zeph 1:17,18, Jere 25:31-33, Zech 14:1,6-9, Eze 38:19-23.

 

[idea]

Watchmen,
There is no indication that the flood was a baptism of any kind.

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
(New Testament | 1 Peter3:20 - 21)


Just FYI LDS believe the flood was a baptism of the Earth. We believe the Earth is a living entity with a spirit, which has already undergone a baptism by water, and will undergo a baptism of fire in the future .


A living entity: The earth abideth forever, Eccl. 1:4. The sea of glass is the earth in its sanctified, immortal, and eternal state, D&C 77:1. The earth must be sanctified and prepared for the celestial glory, D&C 88:18–19. The earth mourned aloud, Moses 7:48.
(Guide to the Scriptures | EEarth.:A living entity)

Cleansing of the earth: Rain fell upon the earth for forty days, Gen. 7:4. The earth is reserved unto fire against the day of judgment, 2 Pet. 3:7. After today cometh the burning, D&C 64:24. The earth desires to be cleansed from filthiness, Moses 7:48.
(Guide to the Scriptures | E Earth.:Cleansing of the earth)

 

[Katzpur]

There is no indication that the flood was a baptism of any kind.

Of course there is no indication if that's not what you believe. Religious people rely on their church's scriptures for information and we all have different scriptures that say different things.

 

[Dunemeister]

There is no indication that the flood was a baptism of any kind. The scriptures tell us plainly that the earth was flooded because the people had become so wicked, Gen 6:5, 11-13.

The apostle Paul used the word "baptism" as a metaphor for what happened to the earth at that time. At the time of the flood, the world was purged of its evil and given a fresh start. That's what happens at Christian baptism: the believer's soul is purged of sin and given a fresh start.

 

[Watchmen]

Watchmen,
There is no indication that the flood was a baptism of any kind. The scriptures tell us plainly that the earth was flooded because the people had become so wicked, Gen 6:5, 11-13.
The Bible does use several forms of speech, hyperbole being one, but there is no indication that the flood account was anything but an actual fact. Consider some of the scriptures that make it impossible to have been a localized flood. Noah was in the ark for a year and ten days, Gen 7:11-13,16-20, Gen 8:13,14. Notice that the water increased on the earth until it was about 22 feet above the mountains. Water that high, even though the mountains were not as high as today, could not be contained in one place on earth.
Today, scientists have found evidence that there was an earthwide flood.
The Bible tells us that the earth of today is stored up for FIRE, 2Pet 3:5-7. Just as in Noah's day the earth itself will not be destroyed, but the scriptures say the ungodly will be destroyed, the same as in Noah's day. No innocent ones were put to death in Noah's day, and only the ungodly will be put to death today, in fact very shortly. We have been living in a time comparable to Noah's day since 1914, when the First World War was started. The earth has grown ever more wicked since then.
The earth will not be destroyed completely with fire. The Holy Bible tells us that it is the fire of God's zeal that will destroy the ungodly, Zeph 1:17,18, Jere 25:31-33, Zech 14:1,6-9, Eze 38:19-23.

We obviously have differently beliefs - both spiritual and scientific.

 

[Zardoz]

...The earth will not be destroyed completely with fire. The Holy Bible tells us that it is the fire of God's zeal that will destroy the ungodly, Zeph 1:17,18, Jere 25:31-33, Zech 14:1,6-9, Eze 38:19-23.

Actually, this has already occurred. Sodom and Gomorrah ring a bell? G-d's wrath would have burned it all but for Abraham. It was the intercession of Abraham that limited this to just the cities, and even these he did his best to save.

 

[Sola'lor]

I think any remaining righteous people were taken from the earth.