Abrahamics: Do you accept 6 Days Creation interpretation by your Prophets and Saints?

[InvestigateTruth]

The Reference to Creation in six Days is mentioned in Jewish Bible and the Quran, and also accepted in Christian Revelation.

I have found recently evidence for a consistant interpretation by the prophets of the old, their companions and saints, being in Islam, Christianity and Jews that they believed by creation in six days is meant 6000 years of creation of human generations in terms of Spirituality and Civilizations through sending Prophets.


Notice that although in our time, Just about more than 6000 years is passed from the Time of Adam according to Bible stories, but according to some of the Traditions recorded thousands of years before us, ALSO the World duration was to last 6000 years, and after that the End of the World was to come, while a New World would be created and replace it. Again creation in terms of Spirituality and Civilization, not in a physical sense.

For this I present from Jewish, Christian and Muslim Holy Books and Recorded Traditions.




Jewish Tradition, the Talmud comments:

R. Katina said, “Six thousand years the world will exist and one [thousand, the seventh], it shall be desolate (haruv), as it is written, ‘And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day’ (Isa. 2:11)...
Jewish eschatology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Christian Tradition:

Saint Augustine taught that there are six ages of the world in his De catechizandis rudibus (On the Catechising of the Uninstructed). Augustine was not the first to conceive of the Six Ages, which had its roots in the Jewish tradition, but he was the first Christian to write about it, and as his ideas became central to the church so did his authority.
The theory originated from a passage in II Peter:

"But of this one thing be not ignorant, my beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." (II Peter 3:8)

The interpretation was taken to mean that mankind would live through six 1,000 year periods (or "days"), with the seventh being eternity in heaven or according to the Nicene Creed, a World to Come.
Six Ages of the World - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





Similar Traditions exists in Islam, which makes a mention of the duration of World Being 6000 years. (References upon request)


Though it may appear the Books are talking about physical creation of World, what was intended by the creation story in Bible and Quran was not about creation of the Physical World, but these Prophets were speaking of Creation of human generations within a 6000 years Cycle, in a sense that their Revelations would create generations of people in terms of Spirituallity and civilizations. This point can be seen by both Quran and Bible:

"The Merciful, Taught the Quran, Created man" Quran 55:1-3

We notice the chronological order of events as expressed in the verses that the Qur'an was "taught" before man was created: "taught the Qur'an, created man".

The meaning becomes clear if the teachings of the Qur'an are considered as creating a new generation of men.

Same can be seen in Christian Bible:

"And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." Ephesians 4:24​

And Jewish Bible:​

"Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" Ezek. 18:31



The Quran, Christian, and Jewish Bible agree that the world is created in 6 days, and all state that a Day of God is a 1000 years. Hence in all the mentioned Traditions, points to the 6000 years creation.


The Six Ages as formulated by Saint Augustine, can be found in De catechizandis rudibus (On the catechizing of the uninstructed), Chapter 22:

1. The First Age: "The first is from the beginning of the human race, that is, from Adam, who was the first man that was made, down to Noah, who constructed the ark at the time of the flood," i.e the Antediluvian period.
2. The Second Age: "..extends from that period on to Abraham, who was called the father indeed of all nations.."
3. The Third Age: "For the third age extends from Abraham on to David the king."
4. The Fourth Age: "The fourth from David on to that captivity whereby the people of God passed over into Babylonia."
5. The Fifth Age: "The fifth from that transmigration down to the advent of our Lord Jesus Christ."
6. The Sixth Age: "With His [Jesus Christ's] coming the sixth age has entered on its process."

Six Ages of the World - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Now, according to these Holy Books, once the End of World comes, a new World is to appear:


"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain" Jewish Bible, Isaiah 66:22


“Are We wearied out with the first creation? Yet are they in doubt with regard to a new creation!” Quran 50:15

"On the Day the Earth is replaced with another Earth, as are the heavens, and they will appear before God, the One, the Irresistible," Quran 14:48

"Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." Christian Bible 2 Peter 3:13​

Therefore according to all these statements, the World that was 6000 years has ended and a New earth that we live has appeared.​

In Baha'i Scriprues it is stated:​

"Verily, We have caused every soul to expire by virtue of Our irresistible and all-subduing sovereignty. We have, then, called into being a new creation, as a token of Our grace unto men. I am, verily, the All-Bountiful, the Ancient of Days."​

- Baha'u'llah​

More to discuss: The year of the Prophecy can be calculated from at least 6 ways consistantly, recorded in Islam, Christianity and Jewish Faith to be 1844.​

The Bab declaired His revelation in year 1844, and anounced that the Old Era has Ended and a New Cycle has started.​

 

[Levite]

Personally, I think the six-day creation story is metaphorical: a parable about the creation of the universe. I think the six-thousand-year-old world is also not literal, but the arbitrary assignation of mythopoeic calendaring of ancient times, which we now use as a convenience rather than a literal dating of the age of the universe.

 

[Pastek]

The creation of the World is one thing, and the creation of the human being is something else.
So i accept the fact that it was created in 6 days as it doesn't mean that the earth was created 6,000 years ago.

 

[Sleeppy]

Here's my guess...

I think Adam was a name referring to men and women who survived a great desolation about 6000 years ago. Within the next 1000 years, even less, the Earth will be made desolate again. Then, the Messiah will call up the remaining survivors, renew the entire physical universe, and resurrect the entire history of mankind into an unlimited territory.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Here's my guess...

I think Adam was a name referring to men and women who survived a great desolation about 6000 years ago. Within the next 1000 years, even less, the Earth will be made desolate again. Then, the Messiah will call up the remaining survivors, renew the entire physical universe, and resurrect the entire history of mankind into an unlimited territory.

Then your view is different than Saint Augustine and Talmud, as I referred to in the OP.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The creation of the World is one thing, and the creation of the human being is something else.
So i accept the fact that it was created in 6 days as it doesn't mean that the earth was created 6,000 years ago.

Then your view is different than the verses and Hadithes that I referred to in the OP?

 

[Pastek]

Then your view is different than the verses and Hadithes that I referred to in the OP?

I've seen no hadith.

We notice the chronological order of events as expressed in the verses that the Qur'an was "taught" before man was created: "taught the Qur'an, created man".

Muslims believe that souls were pre-created.

 

[Sleeppy]

Then your view is different than Saint Augustine and Talmud, as I referred to in the OP.

Not so much. The Talmud says the seventh age is for desolation. This is currently the seventh age, correct? There are many abominations of desolation coming to the world, even now, in this age. It is not complete.

Augustine didn't understand that the Earth has existed and held mankind for longer than 6000 years. So, the cycle didn't begin 6000 years ago. Adam, the survivors of the previous desolation(s), began 6000 years ago.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Not so much. The Talmud says the seventh age is for desolation. This is currently the seventh age, correct? There are many abominations of desolation coming to the world, even now, in this age. It is not complete.

The verse qualifies to be interpreted spiritually as well. Meaning the earth was to be desolated spiritually, and void of guidance. In this sense, when the earth is void of light of guidance, then the Promised One was to appear to resurrect the spiritually dead to the life of belief.

Jesus spoke of that Figuratively giving sign: "When the Sun is darkened and the moon shall not give light and the starts fall"

Meaning when there is no more Light (of guidance).
And according to the Prophecies of Bible that year can be calculated to be the year 1844.

Augustine didn't understand that the Earth has existed and held mankind for longer than 6000 years. So, the cycle didn't begin 6000 years ago. Adam, the survivors of the previous desolation(s), began 6000 years ago.

I would say Augustine understood the 6000 years began from the Days of Adam. According to His book, which I referred in OP, he divided the 6 Ages as follows:

The Six Ages as formulated by Saint Augustine, can be found in De catechizandis rudibus (On the catechizing of the uninstructed), Chapter 22:

The First Age: "The first is from the beginning of the human race, that is, from Adam, who was the first man that was made, down to Noah, who constructed the ark at the time of the flood," i.e the Antediluvian period.
The Second Age: "..extends from that period on to Abraham, who was called the father indeed of all nations.."
The Third Age: "For the third age extends from Abraham on to David the king."
The Fourth Age: "The fourth from David on to that captivity whereby the people of God passed over into Babylonia."
The Fifth Age: "The fifth from that transmigration down to the advent of our Lord Jesus Christ."
The Sixth Age: "With His [Jesus Christ's] coming the sixth age has entered on its process."


He is equating these 6 days, with what Genesis 1 is describing.

So, For example in genesis it is said during the first Day (Age):

"The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning--the first day." 1:2-5


So, Saint Augustine is interpreting this to mean:

"The first is from the beginning of the human race, that is, from Adam, who was the first man that was made, down to Noah, who constructed the ark at the time of the flood," i.e the Antediluvian period.


So St. Augustine must have been reading Gen 1 Spiritually.

For example, Light is the Symbol of Guidance, and Darkness is ignorance. The earth was empty of guidance, and the Spirit of God came and brought Light of Guidance to the earth. That is the reference to the Revelations of God that came to the Prophets as a Guidance to humanity.

 

[Levite]

The Talmud says....

Technically, "The Talmud" doesn't say it, Rav Katina says it. It's a drash recorded in the Talmud, but it is not a law, nor necessarily the majority view of the Rabbis. In other words, it is by no means mandatory that we agree with Rav Katina, or any of those who agree with him. It is one drash among many midrashim.

We don't generally approach the Talmud monolithically. We don't even necessarily approach the Tanach monolithically, but definitely not the aggadic (parable, not legal) material in the Talmud.

 

[Sleeppy]

Matthew 24:30-31

And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken; and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory; and he shall send his messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his chosen from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens unto the ends thereof.

I won't deny you your interpretation, because it is true to a degree. But you miss some of the details.

Matthew 24:35-41
The heaven and the earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. `And concerning that day and the hour no one hath known -- not even the messengers of the heavens -- except my Father only; and as the days of Noah -- so shall be also the presence of the Son of Man; for as they were, in the days before the flood, eating, and drinking, marrying, and giving in marriage, till the day Noah entered into the ark, and they did not know till the flood came and took all away; so shall be also the presence of the Son of Man. Then two men shall be in the field, the one is received, and the one is left; two women shall be grinding in the mill, one is received, and one is left.

Isaiah 13:3-13
I have given charge to My sanctified ones, Also I have called My mighty ones for Mine anger, Those rejoicing at Mine excellency. A voice of a multitude in the mountains, A likeness of a numerous people, A voice of noise from the kingdoms of nations who are gathered, Jehovah of Hosts inspecting a host of battle! They are coming in from a land afar off, From the end of the heavens, Jehovah and the instruments of His indignation, To destroy all the land. Howl ye, for near [is] the day of Jehovah, As destruction from the Mighty it cometh. Therefore, all hands do fail, And every heart of man doth melt. And they have been troubled, Pains and pangs they take, As a travailing woman they are pained, A man at his friend they marvel, The appearance of flames -- their faces! Lo, the day of Jehovah doth come, Fierce, with wrath, and heat of anger, To make the land become a desolation, Yea, its sinning ones He destroyeth from it. For the stars of the heavens, and their constellations, Cause not their light to shine, Darkened hath been the sun in its going out, And the moon causeth not its light to come forth. And I have appointed on the world evil, And on the wicked their iniquity, And have caused to cease the excellency of the proud, And the excellency of the terrible I make low. I make man more rare than fine gold, And a common man than pure gold of Ophir. Therefore the heavens I cause to tremble, And the earth doth shake from its place, In the wrath of Jehovah of Hosts, And in a day of the heat of his anger.

Now, as you say, much of this is spiritual. But, much of this is very literal as well.

Jeremiah 4:23-28
I looked [to] the land, and lo, waste and void, And unto the heavens, and their light is not. I have looked [to] the mountains, And lo, they are trembling. And all the hills moved themselves lightly. I have looked, and lo, man is not, And all fowls of the heavens have fled. I have looked, and lo, The fruitful place [is] a wilderness, And all its cities have been broken down, Because of Jehovah, Because of the fierceness of His anger. For thus said Jehovah: All the land is a desolation, but a completion I make not. For this doth the land mourn, And black have been the heavens above, because I have spoken -- I have purposed, And I have not repented, Nor do I turn back from it.

Amos 8
Thus hath the Lord Jehovah shewed me, and, lo, a basket of summer-fruit. And He saith, `What art thou seeing, Amos?' and I say, `A basket of summer-fruit.' And Jehovah saith unto me: `The end hath come unto My people Israel, I do not add any more to pass over to it. And howled have songstresses of a palace in that day, An affirmation of the Lord Jehovah, Many [are] the carcases, into any place throw --hush! Hear this, ye who are swallowing up the needy, To cause to cease the poor of the land, Saying, When doth the new moon pass, And we sell ground corn? And the sabbath, and we open out pure corn? To make little the ephah, And to make great the shekel, And to use perversely balances of deceit. To purchase with money the poor, And the needy for a pair of sandals, Yea, the refuse of the pure corn we sell. Sworn hath Jehovah by the excellency of Jacob: `I forget not for ever any of their works. For this doth not the land tremble, And mourned hath every dweller in it? And come up as a flood hath all of it. And it hath been cast out, and hath sunk, Like the flood of Egypt. And it hath come to pass in that day, An affirmation of the Lord Jehovah, I have caused the sun to go in at noon, And caused darkness on the land in a day of light, And have turned your festivals to mourning, And all your songs to lamentation, And caused sackcloth to come up on all loins, And on every head -- baldness, And made it as a mourning [of] an only one, And its latter end as a day of bitterness. Lo, days are coming, An affirmation of the Lord Jehovah, And I have sent a famine into the land, Not a famine of bread, nor a thirst of water But of hearing the words of Jehovah. And they have wandered from sea unto sea, And from north even unto east, They go to and fro to seek the word of Jehovah, And they do not find. In that day faint do the fair virgins, And the young men, with thirst. Those swearing by the guilt of Samaria, And have said, Live doth thy god, O Dan, And, Live doth the way of Beer-Sheba, And they have fallen -- and rise not again!'


As we can see, there have been many desolations and 'ends'. Many famines and wars. And the signs of the heavens were known.


As far as interpreting the ages according to the days in Genesis, do you consider it accurate? Does Augustine mention Genesis or is this your analogy?

 

[ChristineES]

I believe it is metaphoric, as well. I have always believed that since Jesus taught His followers with parables, then the prophets probably would have, too.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I've seen no hadith.

Here I present some Hadith and verses of Quran, regarding the End of World Time.
The Hadithes are for making two points. First is to show the Prophet Mentioned the End was very near, and would come 1000 years after Islam, and considering that Muhammad appeared about 5000 years after Adam, that makes the duration of world 6000. Then I present other Hadithes that explicitly state the World duration was 6000 years:


There are at least Two more Hadithes Like the following, but I present one, you can find the other two. when there are three Sahih Hadithes alike, it makes it a very strong Hadith :

In Hadith below the 'relative' period of stay of people of Muhammad is explained in comparison to the duration of Christianity and Jews.


Volume 9, Book 93, Number 624: (Also in Volume 9, Book 93, Number 559)
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

Allah's Apostle said, "Your stay (in this world) in comparison to the stay of the nations preceding you, is like the period between 'Asr prayer and the sun set (in comparison to a whole day). The people of the Torah were given the Torah and they acted on it till midday and then they were unable to carry on. And they were given (a reward equal to) one Qirat each. Then the people of the Gospel were given the Gospel and they acted on it till 'Asr Prayer and then they were unable to carry on, so they were given la reward equal to) one Qirat each. Then you were given the Qur'an and you acted on it till sunset, therefore you were given (a reward equal to) two Qirats each. On that, the people of the Scriptures said, 'These people (Muslims) did less work than we but they took a bigger reward.' Allah said (to them). 'Have I done any oppression to you as regards your rights?' They said, "No." Then Allah said, 'That is My Blessing which I grant to whomsoever I will.' "
SAHIH BUKHARI, BOOK 93: ONENESS, UNIQUENESS OF ALLAH (TAWHEED)


Muslims Period: equivalent to Afternoon till sunset
Christians period: equivalent to noon till afternoon
Jews Period: Equivalent to Sunset till noon

So, let's calculate Moslems period.

Christian period was about 600 years (From revelation of Jesus till Muhammad's)
Jews Period was about 1600 years (From Revelation of Moses till Jesus's)

Putting into equation:

sunrise till noon (Jews) = noon till afternoon (Christians) + afternoon till sunset (Muslims)

1600 years = 600 years + Period of stay of People of Muhammad

Period of Islam = 1600 - 600 = 1000 years.

Please check if my calculations or analysis of Hadith is correct.
For you reference, Rabbinical Judaism calculated a lifespan of Moses corresponding to 1391–1271 BCE; Jerome gives 1592 BC, and Ussher 1619 BC.

I went with 1600 years BC.
Moses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(There is also a Sahih hadith that the Prophet states 1700 years from Moses to Jesus, but that one is not the period between the revelation of Moses and Jesus, and is probably rounded up)



Next Hadith:

The Prophet said, “If my (Ummah) Community keeps on the right, it is going to enjoy an age of one day, and if it becomes corrupt, it will have an age of half a day.” [Al-Munawī cites it in Fayd al-Qadīr from Shaykh Muhyī al-Dīn Ibn ‘Arabī.]


"And one day according to Allah’s estimation is 1,000 years according to yours. "(Quran 22:47)


So, According to these verses and Traditions, the term for people of Muhammad is passed.



Now First verse of Quran: This verse is figurative, and gives sign that when the end of period of Ummah of Muhammad comes, those who become aware will say:


They shall say in a low voice, one to another, - "Ye tarried but ten [century] on earth."
We are most knowing with respect to that which they will say when the most veracious of them will say. "Ye have not tarried above a day." (20:104)

"And one day according to Allah’s estimation is 1,000 years according to yours. "(Quran 22:47)


This is again another verse:

"He directs the command from the heaven to the earth; then it ascends toward Him in a day whose span is a thousand years by your reckoning." Quran 32:5

And this is how I explain it part by part:

"He directs the command from the heaven to the earth" this is a reference to the revelation of Islam. The word used in this verse is "Amr" which is the command of God as a revelation. In many other verses same word is translated as "Cause"

"then it ascends toward Him in a day whose span is a thousand years by your reckoning."

The second part denotes the duration to the End of the World, which is 1000 years.




Now Hadithes that explicitly says 6000 years is the duration of the World:

"According to Ibn Humayd- Yahya b. Wadih- Yahya b. Ya'qub- Hammad- Sa'id b. Jubayr- Ibn Abbas: This world is one of the weeks of the other world - seven thousand years. Six thousand two hundred years have already passed. (The world) will surely experience hundreds of years, during which there will be no believer in the oneness of God there. Others said that the total extent of time is six thousand years." (Tabari, pp. 172-173)

"According to Abu Hisham- Mu'awiyah b. Hisham- Sufyan- al-A'mash- Abu Salih- Ka'b: This world is six thousand years." (Ibid.)

"According to Muhammad b. Sahl b. 'Askar- Isma'il b. 'Abd al-Karim- 'Abd al-Samad b. Ma'qil I- Wahb: Five thousand six hundred years of this world have elapsed. I do not know which kings and prophets lived in every period (zaman) of those years. I aksed Wahb b. Munabbih: How long is (the total duration of) this world? He replied: Six thousand years." (Tabari, pp. 173-174)



Now Hadithes that shows Muhammad said the End of the World was very near:


Book 41, Number 7044:

This hadith has been reported by Sahl b. Sa'd that he heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: I and the Last Hour are (close to each other) like this (and he, in order to explain it) pointed (by joining his) forefinger, (one) next to the thumb and the middle finger (together).


Book 41, Number 7046:
Shu'ba reported: I heard Qatada and Abu Tayyab narrating that both of them heard Anas as narrating that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: I and the Last Hour have been sent like this, and Shu'ba drew his forefinger and middle finger near each other while narrating it.

Muslims believe that souls were pre-created.

So, Muslims believe that Quran was taught to our Souls in pre-existence time? If yes, is it known what was its purpose and benefit that Allah did this?

Where does this interpretation come from originally? Any Authentic Hadith?
Also is there a verse in Quran that explicitly says our souls were pre-existence?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Matthew 24:30-31
I won't deny you your interpretation, because it is true to a degree. But you miss some of the details.

What do you think I am missing? You quoted some verses but didn't actually show what detail is missing.

Now, as you say, much of this is spiritual. But, much of this is very literal as well.

I think the verses you are quoting confirms the spiritual interpretations.

As we can see, there have been many desolations and 'ends'. Many famines and wars. And the signs of the heavens were known.

That's true. Those 'ends' and 'desolations' are in a spiritual sense. Its like spiritual death. The world has been going through cycles of darkness and light.

As far as interpreting the ages according to the days in Genesis, do you consider it accurate? Does Augustine mention Genesis or is this your analogy?

I see them perfectly accurate. I don't know if Augostine has written a detail of his interpretation of Genesis, but the Fact is in His view each day represented an Age. Starting from Adam till the Last Day which was to come after 6000 years. In another way, in His view, He was living in the 5th day of Genesis.

From these evidence it is clear that Augustine was not reading Genesis literally to refer to the creation of earth. Hence He must have reading it spiritually. And if we read it spiritually we see for example light is symbol of spiritual guidance from God, I.e. Revelations. So I proposed what he was possibly thinking, while learning it from Baha'I scriptures and symbolism in Bible.

(See Below Post)

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I am actually amazed by how Saint Augustine interpreted the Days of Creation in Genesis 1:

"The light of Day One represents the enlightenment a soul receives which leads him to seek after God. The expanse, or “vault” (Augustine 1997, XIII.15.16) as he called it, of Day Two symbolizes the word of God in that just as the sky is stretched out to declare God’s truth to the world, so is God’s word stretched out on skins when a scroll is opened. The dry land of the third day represents those who hunger and thirst for God while the sea represents the masses of individuals who do not seek the Lord. The sun, moon, and stars of the fourth day are the various ways in which God communicates His message to mankind. The stars are likened to the gifts of the Spirit given to individuals, while the sun and moon shine brighter and represent the meatier teachings of God’s word which babes in the faith cannot handle. The swimming creatures of the fifth day symbolize God’s holy signs upon the earth while the flying creatures “represent the voice of [God’s] messengers” (Augustine 1997, XIII.20.26). The land animals of the sixth day are said to be true believers who no longer crawl or swim in the depths of the sea. These are living souls that have been regenerated and no longer need baptism as they once did while sunk beneath the waters"

An Examination of Augustine

 

[Pastek]

So, Muslims believe that Quran was taught to our Souls in pre-existence time? If yes, is it known what was its purpose and benefit that Allah did this?

Where does this interpretation come from originally? Any Authentic Hadith?
Also is there a verse in Quran that explicitly says our souls were pre-existence?

It's in the Qu'ran and also in hadith :

7.172 And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this unaware."

7.173 Or [lest] you say, "It was only that our fathers associated [others in worship] with Allah before, and we were but descendants after them. Then would You destroy us for what the falsifiers have done?"

Hadith :

Adam asked: 0 Lord! Who are these people ?
Allah said: They are your children. Every human being's life is written between his eyes.
Among them was a man with the brightest face. For him was written only forty years of age.
Adam said: 0 Lord! Who is this fellow?
Allah said: This is your son Daud (David). His life span is written forty years.
Adam said: 0 Lord! Increase his age.
Allah said: This is what I have written down for him.
He said: Then I give him sixty years of my age.
Allah said: This is between you and him.

(you can read the end in the link below)

(Hadith n°107 - Narrated by Abu Huraira)
110 Hadith Qudsi | Chapter No: 1 | 110 Ahadith Qudsi (Sacred Hadith)

 

[Sleeppy]

What do you think I am missing? You quoted some verses but didn't actually show what detail is missing.



I think the verses you are quoting confirms the spiritual interpretations.



That's true. Those 'ends' and 'desolations' are in a spiritual sense. Its like spiritual death. The world has been going through cycles of darkness and light.



I see them perfectly accurate. I don't know if Augostine has written a detail of his interpretation of Genesis, but the Fact is in His view each day represented an Age. Starting from Adam till the Last Day which was to come after 6000 years. In another way, in His view, He was living in the 5th day of Genesis.

From these evidence it is clear that Augustine was not reading Genesis literally to refer to the creation of earth. Hence He must have reading it spiritually. And if we read it spiritually we see for example light is symbol of spiritual guidance from God, I.e. Revelations. So I proposed what he was possibly thinking, while learning it from Baha'I scriptures and symbolism in Bible.

(See Below Post)

Augustine wasn't sure. He had literal interpretations of Genesis and spiritual. I'd say his spiritual interpretations are definitely more useful, considering that much of the Creation week cannot be literal.

The Vetus Latina once again led him to believe that when God began creating the world it was shapeless and invisible rather than simply being unfinished. 22 With this in mind, Augustine speculated about how God could have spoken words, such as “Let there be light” (Genesis 1:3). He reasoned that since the matter was shapeless and invisible then it would have been impossible for a sound to have actually been made. Consequently, the statement “Let there be light” could not have been made in time, but in eternity, and it could not have literally referred to the creation of light, but of intelligent life (Augustine 2002b, I.17). These errors led him to spiritualize the creation of the sun, moon, and stars on the fourth day (Augustine 2002b, II.23). This complicated reasoning could have easily been avoided if he would have accepted a progression of time during the creation rather than clinging to an instantaneous creation.

I don't believe the Creation of Genesis should be taken word for word. It's really useless in our time. The Creation of the Universe, which denotes the heavens and Earth, was an evolutionary process which man had very little knowledge of, in generations past. The same is true for any book of the Bible. We now know the Earth has existed longer than 6000 years, and that the creation of the Universe took much longer than these suppositions. The bulk of anything written by man is a result of spiritual analysis and growth. What Moses wrote, concerning Adam and what occurred before him, was according to the knowledge and ignorance permitted to him during his lifetime.

The only reason I subscribe to the belief in 6 ages, and the 7th being for desolation, is because Adam is 6000 years ago on our current timeline. Currently, we are in the process of overpopulation, overpolution, etc. This will not go on for much longer, definitely not a thousand years. Great desolations are in progress.

I believe this is what happened, at least a few times, before Adam as well. Perhaps not so evenly distributed between 7000 years each. And not always for exact reasonings each time. But, because we are physically and spiritually superior than our past incarnations as human beings, we've come closer to the eternal life we've been commanded to strive for. Within the next few hundred years, scientific and social advances will show the true nature of humanity. Evil and sin are not agents of free will, but a self-correcting design. When this is accepted, judgement will cease, as prophesied. The true goal of mankind will then be recognised. It is to abolish all forms of slavery and imprisonment, for replacement by forgiveness, understanding, and equality. Medical advances and social advances are able to bring us closer to the utopian societies foreshadowed in descriptions of the Kingdom of Heaven. And to solve the territorial problem, we have planets which can be prepared.

I don't see the connection between Day One and the first Age however. Do you have his explanations of each Day, including Day 5, in correlation to the Ages?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Augustine wasn't sure. He had literal interpretations of Genesis and spiritual. I'd say his spiritual interpretations are definitely more useful, considering that much of the Creation week cannot be literal.



I don't believe the Creation of Genesis should be taken word for word. It's really useless in our time. The Creation of the Universe, which denotes the heavens and Earth, was an evolutionary process which man had very little knowledge of, in generations past. The same is true for any book of the Bible. We now know the Earth has existed longer than 6000 years, and that the creation of the Universe took much longer than these suppositions. The bulk of anything written by man is a result of spiritual analysis and growth. What Moses wrote, concerning Adam and what occurred before him, was according to the knowledge and ignorance permitted to him during his lifetime.

The only reason I subscribe to the belief in 6 ages, and the 7th being for desolation, is because Adam is 6000 years ago on our current timeline. Currently, we are in the process of overpopulation, overpolution, etc. This will not go on for much longer, definitely not a thousand years. Great desolations are in progress.

I believe this is what happened, at least a few times, before Adam as well. Perhaps not so evenly distributed between 7000 years each. And not always for exact reasonings each time. But, because we are physically and spiritually superior than our past incarnations as human beings, we've come closer to the eternal life we've been commanded to strive for. Within the next few hundred years, scientific and social advances will show the true nature of humanity. Evil and sin are not agents of free will, but a self-correcting design. When this is accepted, judgement will cease, as prophesied. The true goal of mankind will then be recognised. It is to abolish all forms of slavery and imprisonment, for replacement by forgiveness, understanding, and equality. Medical advances and social advances are able to bring us closer to the utopian societies foreshadowed in descriptions of the Kingdom of Heaven. And to solve the territorial problem, we have planets which can be prepared.

I don't see the connection between Day One and the first Age however. Do you have his explanations of each Day, including Day 5, in correlation to the Ages?

Augustine initially believed in literal interpretation. It was later on when in His Book called The Final Confession He talked against the literal interpretation and declaired it wrong. Instead he explained it metaphorically. I posted in #15. Have you seen it?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It's in the Qu'ran and also in hadith :

7.172 And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this unaware."

7.173 Or [lest] you say, "It was only that our fathers associated [others in worship] with Allah before, and we were but descendants after them. Then would You destroy us for what the falsifiers have done?"

Hadith :

Adam asked: 0 Lord! Who are these people ?
Allah said: They are your children. Every human being's life is written between his eyes.
Among them was a man with the brightest face. For him was written only forty years of age.
Adam said: 0 Lord! Who is this fellow?
Allah said: This is your son Daud (David). His life span is written forty years.
Adam said: 0 Lord! Increase his age.
Allah said: This is what I have written down for him.
He said: Then I give him sixty years of my age.
Allah said: This is between you and him.

(you can read the end in the link below)

(Hadith n°107 - Narrated by Abu Huraira)
110 Hadith Qudsi | Chapter No: 1 | 110 Ahadith Qudsi (Sacred Hadith)

Can these verses and Hadithes have an interpretation other than their outward meaning?

 

[Sleeppy]

Augustine initially believed in literal interpretation. It was later on when in His Book called The Final Confession He talked against the literal interpretation and declaired it wrong. Instead he explained it metaphorically. I posted in #15. Have you seen it?

I skimmed the article. But I'm almost certain he didn't deny all of the literal interpretation. I was looking for the specifics on that and didn't find it there.

What's more important is whether his interpretation is useful and efficient.

Was it his thought that the creation of Genesis is a prophecy of the 7 Ages, using chronology and spiritual detail?