[Abrahamics ONLY] Who is a Jew?

[metis]

Paul says they point to Messiah's suffering.

But:
The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)

Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4)

The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)

He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8–10)

The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)

Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)

Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)

He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)

There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)

All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)

The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)

He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)

Nations will recognize the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)

For My House (the Temple in Jerusalem) shall be called a house of prayer for all nations (Isaiah 56:3–7)

The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)

The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)

Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)

The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvoth

He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)

Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)

He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)

He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13–15, Ezekiel 36:29–30, Isaiah 11:6–9)


Only when all messianic prophecies are fulfilled could one be declared "the Messiah", and they haven't been fulfilled by anyone.

 

[Tumah]

Y'shua is the sin offering/propitiation for the world:

"The righteousness of God manifested, being propiated as a gift for those who trust, for there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile in that One died for all..."

My people are not allowed to sacrifice humans.
And sin offerings in Judaism is not effective for what probably accounts for the vast majority of sins.

PS. I don't suppose you are one of those chicken-killing people, are you? I mean, you and I haven't had a sin offering of the Mosaic kind for millennia! Be consistent!

I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Tumah]

He was a divine sacrifice, but if it helps, as a Jew I remember that Issac was called to be a sacrifice.

Then as a Jew you are probably also familiar with the Talmudic passage about G-d never intending that Abraham actually sacrifice Isaac and the phraseology G-d used to indicate this.

 

[Tumah]

Paul says they point to Messiah's suffering.

Yeah, so that's another thing Paul was wrong about. What else is new?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Apparently you don't remember the part where he WAS NOT SACRIFICED.

Also you ignore the part where there was indeed a ram. Are you claiming that the ram was God? I think you might have read too much Greco-Roman scripture.


And again just to be clear: Isaac was not sacrificed. He had sons and daughters and died of old age.




Ah so it all makes sense if we add a few things to the text.

lol




So then he can come back right? Where is he? Somehow he ain't coming back. Almost as if he's dead.

But I love this Christian optimism. Always saying how the Jews are stupid for not acknowledging the obvious Messiah while their own one has been MiA for almost 2000 years.
But I am sure he will return soon. Like the original Christians thought. And then those after them. And so forth and so forth.


Any day now!

In the Genesis text, Issac asks where the LAMB is. Abraham says God will provide HIMSELF, the LAMB. And then a RAM appears in the Genesis text. The Lamb was to come "later".

 

[BilliardsBall]

Actually, Jesus appears to have never said that. With verse after verse he talks about "the Father", and if there's his Father, then he ain't God. They obviously cannot be one and the same. To say " Jesus is God" is to slip into polytheism, thus negating God as being one.

1. Jesus is God and if you want to drag over those coals, we can into it via both testaments' witness of same.

2. It certainly would be polytheism to a non-Messianic Jew who agrees with Rambam that God is yachid, One when the scriptures say He is echad, a plural Oneness. Sure.

 

[BilliardsBall]

But:
The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)

Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4)

The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)

He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8–10)

The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)

Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)

Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)

He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)

There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)

All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)

The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)

He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)

Nations will recognize the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)

For My House (the Temple in Jerusalem) shall be called a house of prayer for all nations (Isaiah 56:3–7)

The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)

The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)

Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)

The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvoth

He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)

Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)

He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)

He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13–15, Ezekiel 36:29–30, Isaiah 11:6–9)


Only when all messianic prophecies are fulfilled could one be declared "the Messiah", and they haven't been fulfilled by anyone.

All of this is addressed in apologetics including Paul's writings. As someone who has studied both testaments for years, I can tell you it's all in there, and as someone who abhorred Christianity before converting, I can tell you I personally studied out many of these issues before committing to Y'shua.

 

[metis]

1. Jesus is God and if you want to drag over those coals, we can into it via both testaments' witness of same.

2. It certainly would be polytheism to a non-Messianic Jew who agrees with Rambam that God is yachid, One when the scriptures say He is echad, a plural Oneness. Sure.

It is logically impossible to cite Jesus as being God of Jesus refers to "the Father". You can't have it both ways. You can't say you believe in the scriptures and then turn around and virtually ignore what the scriptures actually say. If I say "My father and I were on the same page", does that in any way mean that my father and I are the exact same person?

And at one point, when questioned about the "end times", Jesus's response was that he didn't know when that would be and that only "the Father" knew. So, if Jesus was God, then how could he not know, plus why would he use "the Father" if God and he were one and the same? And on the cross, he prays to his "Father", asking God to forgive his executioners, which makes not one iota of sense if Jesus was God himself.

 

[metis]

All of this is addressed in apologetics including Paul's writings. As someone who has studied both testaments for years, I can tell you it's all in there, and as someone who abhorred Christianity before converting, I can tell you I personally studied out many of these issues before committing to Y'shua.

No, it's not "all in there".

About 15 years ago, I went to a three evening seminar taught by a Christian theologian named James Lyons, and he said at the end of it that Jesus could not possibly be named the Messiah at this time because all of the prophecies have not been fulfilled. However, he thought it likely that Jesus would fulfill them with his second coming. But until then...

 

[metis]

In the Genesis text, Issac asks where the LAMB is. Abraham says God will provide HIMSELF, the LAMB. And then a RAM appears in the Genesis text. The Lamb was to come "later".

"The Lamb" was slaughtered instead of Isaac.

 

[rosends]

In the Genesis text, Issac asks where the LAMB is. Abraham says God will provide HIMSELF, the LAMB. And then a RAM appears in the Genesis text. The Lamb was to come "later".

Actually, the text says וַיֹּאמֶר אַבְרָהָם אֱלֹהִים יִרְאֶה לּוֹ הַשֶּׂה לְעֹלָה בְּנִי וַיֵּלְכוּ שְׁנֵיהֶם יַחְדָּו which I think we both know does not mean "God will provide HIMSELF, the LAMB". And since this was Abraham's guess work, the fact that a ram appears only shows that Abe guessed wrong. If you want to say that a lamb comes later, then you could look at any of the other textual times when people sacrificed lambs.

 

[Flankerl]

Abraham says God will provide HIMSELF, the LAMB

No not really it doesn't say that at all.

Also nature fun fact: A Lamb is a young sheep. Jesus was in his 30s when he died. 2000 years ago that was not young, neither is it today.
A ram meanwhile is a male sheep which might indeed be young.


So which other parts get more fun if you add a few punctuations marks?

 

[Tumah]

In the Genesis text, Issac asks where the LAMB is. Abraham says God will provide HIMSELF, the LAMB. And then a RAM appears in the Genesis text. The Lamb was to come "later".

That's dumb.
First of all, the translation is "for himself". "G-d will provide for Himself the lamb." Abraham is saying "G-d will provide His own lamb... as opposed to one that we should have brought ourselves." You can't just change words to suit your interpretation.
Secondly, Abraham is not engaging in prophecy, he is answering his son's question as to why they had not brought a lamb to the site they were supposedly coming to for sacrificing. Your suggestions turns Abraham's response into a non-sequitur.
Thirdly, Abraham's reference to the "lamb" makes sense as an allusion to Isaac whom he had just three verses earlier described as a "lad". At no point is the nature of the sacrifice understood to be anything other than Isaac. So the fact that G-d ultimately decides on a ram was not known to either Abraham or Isaac at the time of the conversation.
Fourthly, the word you are translating as "lamb" doesn't only refer to sheep, it refers to goats as well. For that matter, the word you are translating as "will provide" is actually, "will see" meaning "he will see to it Himself".

 

[BilliardsBall]

"The Lamb" was slaughtered instead of Isaac.

The RAM was slaughtered. Read the text--but do something else, would you? Pray for wisdom as you read/before you read.

 

[BilliardsBall]

That's dumb.
First of all, the translation is "for himself". "G-d will provide for Himself the lamb." Abraham is saying "G-d will provide His own lamb... as opposed to one that we should have brought ourselves." You can't just change words to suit your interpretation.
Secondly, Abraham is not engaging in prophecy, he is answering his son's question as to why they had not brought a lamb to the site they were supposedly coming to for sacrificing. Your suggestions turns Abraham's response into a non-sequitur.
Thirdly, Abraham's reference to the "lamb" makes sense as an allusion to Isaac whom he had just three verses earlier described as a "lad". At no point is the nature of the sacrifice understood to be anything other than Isaac. So the fact that G-d ultimately decides on a ram was not known to either Abraham or Isaac at the time of the conversation.
Fourthly, the word you are translating as "lamb" doesn't only refer to sheep, it refers to goats as well. For that matter, the word you are translating as "will provide" is actually, "will see" meaning "he will see to it Himself".

I can't just change words to suit my interpretation. Can you? Behold:

Abraham is saying "G-d will provide His own lamb... as opposed to one that we should have brought ourselves."

Now that I know that YOU can change words to suit your interpretation but I cannot, I think we're set. However, I merely inserted a possible comma.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Actually, the text says וַיֹּאמֶר אַבְרָהָם אֱלֹהִים יִרְאֶה לּוֹ הַשֶּׂה לְעֹלָה בְּנִי וַיֵּלְכוּ שְׁנֵיהֶם יַחְדָּו which I think we both know does not mean "God will provide HIMSELF, the LAMB". And since this was Abraham's guess work, the fact that a ram appears only shows that Abe guessed wrong. If you want to say that a lamb comes later, then you could look at any of the other textual times when people sacrificed lambs.

The term "Abe's guess work" indicates to me that you disbelieve the Word of Ha Shem is the Word of Ha Shem. Y'shua comforted us when He said, "Those who disbelieve Moses will have trouble believing in me as well." Comforted us in better understanding why some reject, some trust.

Trust Y'shua!

 

[BilliardsBall]

No not really it doesn't say that at all.

Also nature fun fact: A Lamb is a young sheep. Jesus was in his 30s when he died. 2000 years ago that was not young, neither is it today.
A ram meanwhile is a male sheep which might indeed be young.


So which other parts get more fun if you add a few punctuations marks?

Y'shua was like a lamb in His appearance and meekness. Yochanan the immerser said "He is the lamb of God who takes away the world's sin."

Jesus was slaughtered like a lamb. Isaiah said all of us are like lambs, gone astray... but we have been redeemed.

 

[rosends]

The term "Abe's guess work" indicates to me that you disbelieve the Word of Ha Shem is the Word of Ha Shem. Y'shua comforted us when He said, "Those who disbelieve Moses will have trouble believing in me as well." Comforted us in better understanding why some reject, some trust.

Trust Y'shua!

No, the words of Abe are not the words of Hashem. Why do you assume that they are? Can you not see that Abe said one thing and God said another? And this is, of course, ignoring that the Hebrew word for the animal is a category inclusive of the other specifics. For that you would have to know Hebrew, so I'll stick with the logical argument till you learn Hebrew.

 

[rosends]

Y'shua was like a lamb in His appearance and meekness. Yochanan the immerser said "He is the lamb of God who takes away the world's sin."

Jesus was slaughtered like a lamb. Isaiah said all of us are like lambs, gone astray... but we have been redeemed.

He was slaughtered? Really? One slaughters sacrifices by impaling them with nails on crosses? Not so much.

 

[Tumah]

I can't just change words to suit my interpretation. Can you? Behold:



Now that I know that YOU can change words to suit your interpretation but I cannot, I think we're set. However, I merely inserted a possible comma.

I wasn't providing a translation, I was providing an interpretation that included all the words that are present in the verse using their correct translations and the context.