[Abrahamics ONLY] Who is a Jew?

[rosends]

2. Issac is certainly a type of Mashiach:

He was the unique son of a father who sacrificed him. Torah is plain--he carried wood on his shoulders. Mashiach carried his cross-piece on His shoulders. His Father made a sacrifice.

no, he isn't. The term "mashiach" has nothing to do with wood, a father or a sacrifice. A piece of wood isn't a cross. Isaac didn't carry the wood on his shoulders.

 

[metis]

I looked for your link but could not find it. I'm happy to visit your link if you'd be so kind as to post it again. Before you do, though, please understand I'm aware of the variety of sacrifices, offerings and etc. that are provided by God in His Word.

The key word is "forgive" and its variations, and you can readily see that God forgiving us is not just dependent on the Temple sacrifices: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv...forgive&restrict=Old+Testament&size=First+100

 

[rosends]

I think you know that Abraham sacrificed (offered) a tithe of his spoils to Melchizedek, high priest of Salem, who wasn't a Jew.

tithes aren't sacrifices. There were no Jews at the time, but Malchitzedek was a believer in God, same as Abe.

I think you know that Job made sacrifices on behalf of other people, his own children.

I think you know that my question was "Did Job impale his animals on a cross?" so you haven't answered.

I think you know that crucifixion hadn't yet been invented in the days of Job and Abraham.

I know nothing of the sort. Do you have proof to this?

I think you might know that the Qu'ran has Pharaoh threaten Moses and Aaron with crucifixion, showing how mixed up on details Muhammed was, and I think you should step back, breathe deeply. I'm not a Muslim, I'm a person who trusts Y'shua because I first trusted Tanakh as perfect. If you are trying to help me/save me, you'd be a bit less abrasive to me, particularly as a Jewish brother.

I don't know this, nor do I care. Why would you even bring in the Quran? It is as irrelevant as the claims about the gospels.

 

[Tumah]

Oy vey.

1. I didn't "respond to your question" as you didn't ask one! You made a point that Messianics wait long periods of time for certain prophecies to come to pass, and I retorted, correctly, that you would thus be waiting even longer for the Messiah to come at all!

If you think that was my point, then I think I know why you interpret the Torah the way you do.

2. Issac is certainly a type of Mashiach:

He was the unique son of a father who sacrificed him. Torah is plain--he carried wood on his shoulders. Mashiach carried his cross-piece on His shoulders. His Father made a sacrifice.

I think you will benefit from this.

 

[Tumah]

no, he isn't. The term "mashiach" has nothing to do with wood, a father or a sacrifice. A piece of wood isn't a cross. Isaac didn't carry the wood on his shoulders.

What do you mean? Think of all the wood cutters during the Temple era who carried wood on their shoulders and whose fathers made sacrifices to G-d.

Are you telling me none of them are messiahs?

 

[Tumah]

If you are trying to help me/save me, you'd be a bit less abrasive to me, particularly as a Jewish brother.

It would be a lot easier to be less abrasive if you weren't trying to pull our legs with your ridiculous exegesis.
You either have some really serious reading comprehension issues, or you look at it as playing around with the anons on some random website.
So I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and saying you're playing around with us.

But that makes it very hard to respond to you seriously.

 

[rosends]

What do you mean? Think of all the wood cutters during the Temple era who carried wood on their shoulders and whose fathers made sacrifices to G-d.

Are you telling me none of them are messiahs?

reminds me of this

 

[RabbiO]

reminds me of this

There's a longer, more elaborate, version that makes the punch line even funnier. Remind me some time about it.

 

[rosends]

There's a longer, more elaborate, version that makes the punch line even funnier. Remind me some time about it.

I heard it as a longer story but the first link I found when I searched gave me the shorter version.

 

[Akivah]

[This is an old favorite of mine]

G-d gathered the angels around and said "I want to go on vacation. Can any of you suggest a good place?"

One angel says "How about Venus"

G-d replies "No, I was there 14000 years ago and got sun burned."

Another angel says "Mars is a good location."

G-d replies "No, I went there 9000 years ago and got frost bitten."

Another angel says "Well, there is always Earth."

G-d says angrily "No way! I went there 2000 years ago and they're still accusing me of knocking up some broad."

 

[BilliardsBall]

no, he isn't. The term "mashiach" has nothing to do with wood, a father or a sacrifice. A piece of wood isn't a cross. Isaac didn't carry the wood on his shoulders.

And Abraham took the wood of the burnt-offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took in his hand the fire and the knife; and they went both of them together.

…'Behold the fire and the wood; but where is the lamb for a burnt-offering?

…'God will provide Himself the lamb for a burnt-offering, my son.

…And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in the thicket by his horns. And Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt-offering in the stead of his son.

Source: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0122.htm

The key word is "forgive" and its variations, and you can readily see that God forgiving us is not just dependent on the Temple sacrifices: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv...forgive&restrict=Old+Testament&size=First+100[/quote]

I agree, 100%. God does not forgive Jews or Gentiles or both solely on the basis of the blood of animal sacrifices at the Temple. Yes.

tithes aren't sacrifices. There were no Jews at the time, but Malchitzedek was a believer in God, same as Abe.

Have you read the comparisons the author of the book to the Messianic Jews makes between Mel and Jesus?

I think you know that my question was "Did Job impale his animals on a cross?" so you haven't answered.

Neither Job nor the priests impaled animals on crosses. But maybe you should check in with Metis, he thinks God forgives apart from animal sacrifices at the Temple—and I agree with Metis.

I know nothing of the sort. Do you have proof to this?

I’m sure we can find proof that the Romans, not Pharoah, came up with crucifixion. Based on your next “caring response”, I think you are just being argumentative.

I don't know this, nor do I care. Why would you even bring in the Quran? It is as irrelevant as the claims about the gospels.

My point was, “I’m here promoting the Jewish faith and the Jewish Messiah, not Islam. Be nicer to me.

If you think that was my point, then I think I know why you interpret the Torah the way you do.

My point still stands. It is hypocritical to accuse Christians of waiting a long time for prophecy fulfillment, say 700 years between Jesus and Isaiah or 500 years between Jesus and Daniel, when you know our people have waited for Messianic prophecies to be fulfilled for far longer periods of time.

I think you will benefit from this.

But the first definition was “Jews think Messiah will save Jews, goy think He will save everyone.” But there are Tanakh prophecies that Messiah will bless the goyim, too, and with salvation! Hallejujah!

What do you mean? Think of all the wood cutters during the Temple era who carried wood on their shoulders and whose fathers made sacrifices to G-d.

Are you telling me none of them are messiahs?

I’m saying those in Tanakh are types of the Messiah who was to come. Issac looms larger than the ones you cite because he was carrying wood to be self-sacrificed! But that’s God’s Word for you.

It would be a lot easier to be less abrasive if you weren't trying to pull our legs with your ridiculous exegesis.
You either have some really serious reading comprehension issues, or you look at it as playing around with the anons on some random website.
So I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and saying you're playing around with us.

But that makes it very hard to respond to you seriously.

If you are not responding to me seriously, you would be less abrasive. I don’t beat upon fools with a stick.

My exegesis has been compelling to countless Jews over time—it comes from above as revealed in both testaments—and Messianics often assimilate (after they are thrown out of the shtetl!)

I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

 

[Tumah]

And Abraham took the wood of the burnt-offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took in his hand the fire and the knife; and they went both of them together.

…'Behold the fire and the wood; but where is the lamb for a burnt-offering?

…'God will provide Himself the lamb for a burnt-offering, my son.

…And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in the thicket by his horns. And Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt-offering in the stead of his son.

Source: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0122.htm

Is there a purpose for this quote?

But the first definition was “Jews think Messiah will save Jews, goy think He will save everyone.” But there are Tanakh prophecies that Messiah will bless the goyim, too, and with salvation! Hallejujah!

That has nothing to do with Isaac whom you called a messiah yet had saved no one.
And why do you use Jew in the plural and Goy in the singular?

I’m saying those in Tanakh are types of the Messiah who was to come. Issac looms larger than the ones you cite because he was carrying wood to be self-sacrificed! But that’s God’s Word for you.

Types of the Messiah that was to come.

"Marbles are a type of chocolate ball"
"In what way?"
"They're round."

Sorry, G-d's a lot more intelligent than that.

If you are not responding to me seriously, you would be less abrasive. I don’t beat upon fools with a stick.

I do. There's no other choice when reason and logic won't work.

My exegesis has been compelling to countless Jews over time—it comes from above as revealed in both testaments—and Messianics often assimilate (after they are thrown out of the shtetl!)

I'm sure the truth of of Christianity is very compelling to someone who harbors ill will towards his fellow Jews who through him out of the shtetl. But for those without personal grudges and other issues, its not.

I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

So basically, you know you speak the truth because... you know you speak the truth.
Nothing like self-confirmation when there's no other!

 

[rosends]

And Abraham took the wood of the burnt-offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took in his hand the fire and the knife; and they went both of them together.

Source: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0122.htm

Yeah...um...do you see "shoulders" there? I don't. Any connection to a cross? Nope. Any connection to the word (or concept) of mashiach? Nope. So why did you quote it?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Is there a purpose for this quote?


That has nothing to do with Isaac whom you called a messiah yet had saved no one.
And why do you use Jew in the plural and Goy in the singular?


Types of the Messiah that was to come.

"Marbles are a type of chocolate ball"
"In what way?"
"They're round."

Sorry, G-d's a lot more intelligent than that.


I do. There's no other choice when reason and logic won't work.


I'm sure the truth of of Christianity is very compelling to someone who harbors ill will towards his fellow Jews who through him out of the shtetl. But for those without personal grudges and other issues, its not.


So basically, you know you speak the truth because... you know you speak the truth.
Nothing like self-confirmation when there's no other!

Do you read what I write?

I speak the truth because I could wish myself in Hell forever if it would mean my fellow brethren were saved. I speak truth because to not speak truth is a lie.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Yeah...um...do you see "shoulders" there? I don't. Any connection to a cross? Nope. Any connection to the word (or concept) of mashiach? Nope. So why did you quote it?

You ignored the rest of my post. Why is that?

 

[rosends]

You ignored the rest of my post. Why is that?

Because your post ignored what I pointed out. Why follow you on some tangent when you can't address what was stated.

 

[Tumah]

Do you read what I write?

I speak the truth because I could wish myself in Hell forever if it would mean my fellow brethren were saved. I speak truth because to not speak truth is a lie.

It's a little confusing when you ask me if I read what you wrote after I answered your post line-by-line.

Let's not talk about what you think truth is, yeah? You've already given us plenty of examples of how you read the 'truth'.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Truth is in Tanakh. I have no doubt that some of us here believe truth, absolute truth, is also in Talmud--and/or Kabbalah--and/or Gematria--and/or Zohar, etc.

THAT is one of the problems you have.

Another problem is when we as Jews think Talmud and the sages have MORE truth than Tanakh. This is a giant problem!

I don't argue often with Jewish people, because where I live are many Jews but many more Gentiles. With the Catholics, for example, I point out the huge problem they have if they take the Pope and tradition as more truthful or even as truthful as scripture. But with me, my "problem" is I love Tanakh but you believe my interpretations/hermeneutics are wrong. GREAT REASON TO CALL ME NOT A JEW. THANKS SO MUCH, BROTHERS! Do you think the sages of old played those games? "You believe differently than me regarding the sharpness of the knife, ah, what do you know? You're not even a Jew!" Of course they said things like that when they were angry, or scared.

I lived in fear, and I know you do, because as we all know, it seems like all the Gentiles who love Jesus, kill Jews. One day I learned how it was that there was a subclass of religious Christians, whom not only the Jews but the other Christians despise, who are a minority, a remnant in this world, a small group surrounded by enemies. Sound familiar? Israel is much like this subgroup of born again Christians. Born again Christians--if you can find real ones because it's becoming popular for everyone who wins and Oscar or Superbowl to "give it up for God"--have special blessings, special knowledge, and are despised--like the Master, without good reason. Quite the opposite, actually.

What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God. What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

"For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold [the power of, purpose of, innerancy of, beauty of] the law.

I know a lot of Jewish people--you know--being Jewish and all. And I know some beautiful and godly Jews, but no perfect ones, except Y'shua, who is not quite the person now He was on His first visit, you know. He is PERFECT, without sin. I'm imperfect. Y'shua substituted for/switched places with me, so that when the time comes, I can go to Heaven--His perfection for my imperfection. Not quite a fair trade, but nu, God loves us! Of course His love is so powerful it seems downright unfair.

You can SAY you peruse and pursue the Law to learn. Torah is learning, and our learning is Torah. But of course!

But the moment you weaken the armor you wear to admit we pursue the Law to pursue righteousness, and to pursue the cleansing from our sin, Y'shua draws near.

 

[Flankerl]

Y'shua draws near

Straight up quote from 1900 years ago.

 

[Akivah]

It looks like Billiardball has abandoned his tact of claiming woodcutters are messiahs, to just giving us a straight up Christian sermon.