Abrahamics: Witches, Demons etc.

[IndigoChild5559]

Hmm....someone is going to be a frog.

Ribbit

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Father Junipero Serra enslaved Native Americans, beat them, killed some, and is now a saint for building California's missions (thus bringing them the word of God).

Couldn't we substitute the word "witchcraft" for "religion?"

So, we could assert:

Religion is forbidden because it is essentially a very dangerous con that takes advantage of people, especially in that it gives the power to manipulate others to the practitioner through fear.

I'm not sure why you bring up Junipero Serra. What does he have to do with a discussion on witchcraft?

Religion plays a very positive role in the lives of people. According to scientific research, those involved with religious congregations are healthier, happier, longer lived, and have a buffer against anxiety and depression. So, no, religion is not a con and doesn't doesn't take advantage of people. Are some religions toxic? Yes. But in general religion is a very good thing to have.

 

[Psalm23]

So, in your opinion, how would you interpret this Biblical passage:

You shall not allow a sorceress to live.

I'm not here to debate you or your opinion on this. I just would appreciate knowing how you personally see this. As well, the belief in Mediaeval Christendom was that witches don't exist, so you're in good company there.

I’m not sure exactly how to view this verse. I don’t view it as something to be practiced today.

It would seem to me that Exodus 22:18 is spoken to the people of Israel and if I was to guess, apply to their own land of Israel. I’m not sure if this is only when the people of Israel were going into their land to inherit it or while they were living in their own land.

I would not mind hearing the perspective of a person who has studied the Old Testament in depth on this particular verse.

 

[InChrist]

I would like to know whether you believe in witchcraft, demons, curses, spirits etc. and why or why not.

Poll aimed at Jews, Christians, Muslims and Bahai's.

When you say “ believe in” do you mean believe those things are real and exist or do you mean believe in practicing witchcraft or occult activities?

 

[Rival]

When you say “ believe in” do you mean believe those things are real and exist or do you mean believe in practicing witchcraft or occult activities?

That they are real.

 

[InChrist]

That they are real.

Thank you for the clarification.
I believe demons exist because the scriptures indicate they do. Spirits trying to contact humans are simply demons, from my understanding. Witchcraft is a practice which exists and anyone attempting to manipulate nature or people through spells, rituals, incantations is a form of witchcraft. I don’t think the human beings performing witchcraft or curses actually have any power at all. They simply are deceived and manipulated by demonic beings to think they do.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Exactly. Wiccans and Neo-Pagans exist who do magic spells, but their spells don't work in the slightest.

If magic is not possible, I think that makes reality kind of boring. I think it's possible, and possibly even essential to our survival, it's just that western culture castigates it

By magic, I think I mean the benevolent power that your inner objectivity might express - that is what was meant was Jesus said you can move a mountain with your mind, or when he created copious loads of fish fry platters out of what seemed like nowhere.

The idea is that your objectivity can twist reality toward a better outcome. Arguably, going to the moon is magic, or using an iphone, or just using electricity like we do , or driving a car to get somewhere faster than walking would. Etc. etc. etc

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I would like to know whether you believe in witchcraft, demons, curses, spirits etc. and why or why not.

Poll aimed at Jews, Christians, Muslims and Bahai's.

So first I have to clarify something, which is what I mean by subscribing to the Abrahamic DIR. And that is, that I think there is something there, in the bible, but I very much see it as an amalgam of conflicting spiritual ideas and advice. Furthermore, I really kind of think that in western culture, we are compelled to be partially Abrahamic in our approach. Our thinking , law, philosophy, and even etymology seems like it was irrevocably mutated by the experience of the bible. I am not here to deny that

The biblical transition of the New Testament however , introduces copious demonology and magic apropos of nothing , save an anecdote here and there, a witch of endor or a staff turned snake . The new testament text is just boiling over with possessed people , implicitly suggesting the existence of a vast spirit world. I suggest that this is the influence of Roman theological noveau, which obviously sought to forge spirituality out of the wildest spiritual influences it could, from anywhere it went

People like to have their religion tethered to lands afar, because if their spiritual influences are too proximate, that diffuses some of the magic involved. Jesus became the vector therefore, and people were enamored that there was a place far away (like with any spirit world, which is also " far away " from the physical world) where this wondrous man would tread. Even in the state of Isreal, he was apparently from somewhere on the outskirts, which was apparently Nazareth

Coming back to the "demon term," and the like, I think the term has to be deconstructed for it to make any sense whatsoever. That is because it is basically a non-term, or a very abstract one, at least. Today, if we see someone suffering from epilepsy, the modern science-informed person will look at structures in the brain. They will likely not think about some invisible, external, conscious being that would dive into someone's body.

But then again, I don't think modern science has completely grasped what consciousness is, and personality theory is still very young. There is an idea that you tune your personality or consciousness like it were a radio, and tap into different ways of expression, and influences. This brings us again, to this idea of the external coming to inhabit the internal. I find it weird for example, when I see different people exhibiting what seems like the exact same personality, right down to tone & timbre of voice , implying that the phenomenon is largely based in something external

Turning to a more alarming example, there is something strange, on a consciousness acting level, about people who express extreme anti-social behavior. For example, Jefferey Dahmer apparently didn't remember some of the specific and complicated horrific things he did. So then, who or what was behind the reigns of that man? Modern people have a number of different theories on all that, but I think perhaps one that comes close to demon possession theory might involve what is being termed as biological determinism

Biological determinism is alarming in that it causes advocates like Harris and Sapolsky for example, to not even believe in free-will. I don't think I'd go quite that far, I'd think that cultivating inner objectivity may give a footing with free-will. But when poor behavior is analyzed, it is oddly put into the context of being something that someone 'could not control.' What that means, is that your biology is external to your objectivity.

That is a dualism for sure: the biology is therefore the 'external demon,' or angel, depending on its disposition, and then, only your cultivated sense of objectivity would be your soul, your true inner world. It is, unfortunately , capable of being infected by biology. Damage parts of the brain, and you may get Klüver-Bucy syndrome no matter how saint-like you are, or were.

 

[Clara Tea]

Demons and a literal Satan are part of my worldview as a Baha'i. I believe we have a spirit or soul that passes from this world to the next. Our ancestors who pass on can positively influence us in the next world and we can positively influence them through prayer. Someone can put a curse on me but I don't believe that has any power or influence unless I allow it to. The practice of witchcraft is not encouraged.

Adrian, you are always like a breath of fresh air. Pleasant to be around, with a positive outlook on both life and death.

I wonder about voodoo curses. They say that they can turn people into zombies. Yet, it seems like such curses are based on narcotics more than psychology or magic.

 

[Rival]

I’m not sure exactly how to view this verse. I don’t view it as something to be practiced today.

It would seem to me that Exodus 22:18 is spoken to the people of Israel and if I was to guess, apply to their own land of Israel. I’m not sure if this is only when the people of Israel were going into their land to inherit it or while they were living in their own land.

I would not mind hearing the perspective of a person who has studied the Old Testament in depth on this particular verse.

I've consulted my commentaries for you and here's what they have to say on this verse:
(I typed them myself so please excuse errors )

Ramban (13th century):
In connection with all those who are guilty of death, He has said above: moth yumoth (he shall be surely put to death), meaning he is liable to death, and it is a positive commandment upon us to slay him, based upon the verse which says, and thou shalt put away the evil from the midst of thee, or it may be that this obligation on us is derived from the very expression yumoth (he shall be put to death), which He used in these cases. But here, however, He did not say, "a sorceress shall be put to death", but in this case He warned us in a stricter manner by means of a negative commandment, that we should not suffer her to live. The reason for this is that the sorceress is defiled of name and full of tumult, and fools are misled by her, therefore He was more stringent and admonished us with a prohibition. We find a similar severity in relation to all those who cause snares for many people, such as that which He said in the case of the misleader after idols, neither shalt thou spare, nor shalt thou conceal him, and in the case of a murderer He said, And ye shall take no ransom for the life of a murderer, that is guilty of death.

Rabbi Hertz (early 20th century, tends to be a bit polemical against Christians):
Not because there was any reality in witchcraft, but because it was a negation of the unity of God and an abominable form of idolatry. It is noteworthy that the Septuagint translates the Heb. word for sorceress by 'poisoner'. Ancient witchcraft was steeped in crime, immorality and imposture; and it debased the populace by hideous practices and superstitions. Hence the place of this commandment in this chapter. It is preceded by provisions against sexual license (v. 15) and followed by condemnation of unnatural vice and idolatry (v. 18 and 19). The wording of the command is an unusual form. We should have expected, 'A sorceress shall surely be put to death.' Some commentators, therefore, explain it as a prohibition of resorting to the sorceress, and thus enabling her to thrive in her nefarious avocation. The law applied to the sorcerer as well (Lev. xx, 27).

It is fashionable to trace all the horrors of the persecution of witches in mediaeval times to this verse. There is no justification for this. Witchcraft as a sinister danger in Jewish social life ceases to count long before the destruction of the Second Temple. (The incident in connection with Simon ben Shetach is no proof to the contrary. Both Jewish and non-Jewish scholars - Dernbourg, Essai, 69; Israel Levi, Revue Des Etudes Juives, xxxv, 213; and Strack, Einleitung, 118, - have made it the subject of investigation, and are agreed that is is merely Haggadic). Later Jewish teachers (Samuel Ibn Chofni [10th-11th century] and Ibn Ezra [12th century]) are among the earliest to deny the existence of demons or the efficacy of witchcraft. The hideous cruelties in the medaieval trials of witches would have been impossible in Jewish judicial procedure. Torture to extort confession was unknown in Jewish law; and no confession on the part of the accused, that would have involved capital punishment, was allowable. 'No man can in law brand himself a criminal' is a principle in Jewish criminal law. Christianity, furthermore, which disregarded portions of the Decalogue (e.g., the Second Commandment with regard to the prohibition of image worship; and the Fourth Commandment, with respect to the seventh day as the Sabbath) would certainly not have been guided in its attitude towards witchcraft by any single verse in the 'Old' Testament, if the New Testament had not been a demon-haunted book. Down to quite modern times the Church ascribed reality to the works of witches. In Germany alone, no less than 100, 000 women and children are said to have suffered a cruel death during the horrible hunt for witches that disgraced the sixteenth century. So late as 1716, a woman and her daughter of nine years were hanged at Huntingdon for raising storms by witchcraft.

Rabbi Hirsch (19th century) - I only transcribed the relevant part,
So literally, to put into a net, to bring completely out of all contact with all other existence i.e., to cut off by death. If we consider the three crimes which are here given as types for these three categories, we can see how, from their innermost nature, they comply with what we have assumed to be the reason for the differentiation.
כישוף (spell/sorcery/witchcraft) according to our way of understanding it (adopting it from Maimonides) [is] nothing but deception, nothing but an assumed mastery of God's Laws of Nature, would be rather a folly to be smiled at, or a madness to be pitied, than a crime to be punished, were it not that it exercises such a deep demoralising influence on the community. כישוף has always been practiced only in the service of immorality and crime. For matters which were in accord with the Deity one could trust to the intervention of Divine Providence. Only for matters where one knew that one was in opposition to the Divine Will was one driven to try to find a by-way, some indirect means by which to gain one's end without the assistance of, and against the laws of a benign Providence. It was in response to this demand that the wizard worked. The Gemora (Sanherdin 67b) aptly explains the word מכשק (witchcraft) as an abbreviation which can equally well mean : "They that deny all the forces of nature are under the control of a higher power, the Divine Will", or "they allege that they can paralyse the forces of nature which are controlled by God alone, and which fulfil His Will alone". It is to show how ridiculous in itself such a procedure is, that here, the only time in the scriptures, מכשק is written in the feminine מכשפה, whereas elsewhere it always occurs in the masculine. The witch - whose supposed art is quite usually practiced by any old woman, and this also shows the absurdity of its pretentions - as such does not deserve death, so it does not say moth yumoth, but nevertheless 'shall not suffer/let', because of the erroneous ideas which he spreads, and the devastating effect he has on morality.

Hope that's at least somewhat helpful for you