Adam and Eve, and various takes on that story

[standing_on_one_foot]

It's an interesting story, and some of the interpretations are as well...I mean, think about it. Why make people curious, and then put a big tree in the middle of a garden you've put them in, with a metaphorical neon sign flashing in big, bright letters, "HERE IT IS!", and then tell 'em not to take its fruit or something will happen? Kinda asking for it, isn't it? Especially if you consider that these people have no free will of yet, so you know exactly how they're going to act. Do you suppose God intended for them to take the fruit all along? (For the record, I'm asking this from an interpretive point of view. Even if you don't believe the story is true or to be taken literally or the religion is true or there is a God, etc--especially if you don't believe, actually--I'd still love to hear what you think.)

Happy debating, all.

 

[Lightkeeper]

The story was probably meant in the begininning let people know they better obey God or else. I actually think that knowledge of good and evil is a gift. Who is happier, the lazy beach bum who's a parasite on society or the worker who is contributing to society and improving the world around him?

 

[Ceridwen018]

I agree Lightkeeper--the bible kinda makes it sound like knowledge is bad, but I think I'd rather have it.

Kinda asking for it, isn't it?

Haha, I absolutely think so. Especially, with god being omniscient and all, he had to have known they would eat the fruit before he even created them or the tree.

 

[Henry]

The tree was put in the center of the garden so that Adam and Eve would have a choice. Love demands a choice, if it's forced, then that could be considered rape. They did have free will at that time, hence the tree. God doesn't want robots following His every command, but people who are in love with Him. The unfortunate thing is that they chose sin. The same reason that satan was kicked out of Heaven, for saying "I will make myself like the most high. In essence, he was saying that he wanted to be God.

 

[standing_on_one_foot]

But, with no knowledge of good or bad, how are they to be blamed for choosing sin?

And what's wrong with wanting to be like God? Not actually being God, of course, I suppose I can see the problem there, but being like God? Isn't that the whole point of being b'tzelem elohim, in God's image? Isn't it our responsibility to strive to be holy? What else can we strive to be? Well, I suppose there's striving to be human, but by that we mean our better qualities which, supposedly, mirror God's.

Here's a thought: were they really kicked out for taking the fruit? I recall one interpretation that says that no, they were not. The were sent from the Garden because, when God asked them what happened (after they had knowledge of good and bad, I might mention), they tried to blame their actions on someone else. Adam points to Eve and says, "She made me do it." and Eve points to the snake and says, "He made me do it." and, of course, no one listens to the snake (who's probably thinking something along the lines of, "Well, I'm in for it now.") I always kinda pictured God shaking His head and going, "Guys, guys, you're still not getting it. Go out into the world and try to grow up a little, OK?" I think we're still working on that, personally...anyway, that's one version I've always been rather fond of.

 

[Green Gaia]

Love demands a choice, if it's forced, then that could be considered rape.

What kind of choice is, "Do what I say, or I will kill you" ? There is no real freedom of choice there. When presented with that situation, you're going to do what you're told whether you believe in it or not, in order not to be killed.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The tree was put in the center of the garden so that Adam and Eve would have a choice. Love demands a choice, if it's forced, then that could be considered rape.

No, rape and enslavement was what God ordered done to the Midianite virgins. The bottom line, Henry, is this: if any parent treated his or her child in the way you so nimbly rationalize, they would be lucky to make it to jail:

Come here Adam. Come here Eve. I want the two of you to play nice together until daddy gets back. Feel free to play with whatever you want. But Eve, touch those chocalate chip cookies and I'll do far more than punish you. I'll thow you out of the house. I'll expose you to toil, poverty, and embarrassment. I'll greatly increase your pain at chilbirth. I'll subbordinate you to your husband. And I'll do the same to your daughters and their daughters and their daughters and ...​

What is truly frightening is your easy support. You can and do justify anything so long as it's wrapped in the Bible. It is methodologically no different than that of the Taliban.

 

[Surrealgurl]

It's not free will, it's an ultimatum.

FREE WILL; freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

ULTIMATUM; a final proposition, condition, or demand; especially : one whose rejection will end negotiations and cause a resort to force or other direct action

So I don't know why Christians keep saying God gave humans free will.

 

[linwood]

"I actually think that knowledge of good and evil is a gift."

Gifts don`t have to be taken against the will of the giver and then hidden.

"The tree was put in the center of the garden so that Adam and Eve would have a choice."

You can`t expect someone to make the right choice if you purposely deny them the ability that would allow them to choose correctly.
They had free will without the knowledge of right and wrong, what else could god possibly expect?

"Here's a thought: were they really kicked out for taking the fruit?"

Actually they weren`t kicked out for taking the fruit from the tree of knowledge.
They were kicked out so they wouldn`t have access to the tree of life.
God feared they would become gods themselves.

What the story shows is the first instance where god exhibits his own arrogant self centered ego at the expense of the lives, emotions, and welfare of perfectly innocent humans and in this one first instance those humans were indeed "Perfectly" innocent.

Actually the concept of original sin means he did it at the expense of all humanity, not just these two humans.

 

[trishtrish10]

obedience is the key to this conflict. many people choose to obey their selfish desires than to obey their God who is omipotent and omnisceint.

 

[Allan]

In many cultures there is an ethnic minority and they mostly have stories about how everything began. The stories are handed down verbally.

The reason the bible is singled out is because there are various groups of people who call themselves Christians and they do not present very well. These people have claimed the Bible as theirs basically and then set out to make all sorts of claims.
Most of what is said cannot be verified at all, but that doesn't deter them.

I actually believe the bible is a good reference.

Science is telling us now that aging can be arrested in the human cell. The reason for the physical degeneration of cells is known and if this could be done in the body people could live in good health for a long time. My guess is this will not be for ordinary folk, rich means superior attributes to the rich.

Perhaps immortality was possible for Adam and Eve and some choice that was made at that time prevented them from acquiring it.

What happened to them should be apparent in human characteristics now. It is all to do with self belief, self empowerment. This may seem good until you are on the recieving end of some selfish person who steals everything you have or some self empowered person who talks you into giving up your life savings to some risky scheme. Again, some jealous person who kills you for a few dollars. Again, some personal lack of ability in a society that is hard on mistakes, especially when money can be made out of it.

We like to think we are modern thinkers and laugh at the Romans drinking from lead pipes and their decadence but we have come to the point of placing the whole planet at risk with the technology used. Oxygen levels are reducing significantly on the planet.

If we have and enjoy the benefit of knowing the difference between good and bad we are not using it and are going to pay a huge penalty.

If God is to blame then God's shoulders are very broad. God has a plan. If you believe the Adam and Eve story then believe the remainder.
Why leave yourselves unworthy and unable to participate in the future.

 

[Henry]

No, rape and enslavement was what God ordered done to the Midianite virgins. The bottom line, Henry, is this: if any parent treated his or her child in the way you so nimbly rationalize, they would be lucky to make it to jail:

Come here Adam. Come here Eve. I want the two of you to play nice together until daddy gets back. Feel free to play with whatever you want. But Eve, touch those chocalate chip cookies and I'll do far more than punish you. I'll thow you out of the house. I'll expose you to toil, poverty, and embarrassment. I'll greatly increase your pain at chilbirth. I'll subbordinate you to your husband. And I'll do the same to your daughters and their daughters and their daughters and ...​

What is truly frightening is your easy support. You can and do justify anything so long as it's wrapped in the Bible. It is methodologically no different than that of the Taliban.

What really amazes me is that you know me so well . I do not use the Bible to "wrap" things in so I can justify certain actions. Also,to compare me with the Taliban is really sad.
It's really very simple. (now stay with me here) God put Adam and Eve in the middle of a huge lush garden full of beautiful trees with plenty of fruit for consumption. Out of all this He said "don't touch this one." Did He know they would? OF COURSE! You must take the entire Bible in context, and consider the way God set this up. 1. Man chose to disobey. 2. God sent the law. (knowing ahead of time that it would be impossible to obey all of it) 3. God sent Jesus (wiilingly) to die on the cross. (By the way, since according to the law, blood had to be shed for the remission of sin, Jesus made Himself the final sacrifice.)
Of course this is an extreme summary, but hopefully this helps.
Also, the Bible can be taken at face value, (in context) people constantly look for "mystical" meanings that aren't really there.
Lastly, the word predjudice means to pre-judge. Perhaps you should take this into consideration before basing your opinion of someone on one post.

 

[Ceridwen018]

Did He know they would? OF COURSE! You must take the entire Bible in context, and consider the way God set this up. 1. Man chose to disobey.

God knew that man would disobey. God created everything in such a way that facilitated this disobedience. How then, was it a choice?

2. God sent the law. (knowing ahead of time that it would be impossible to obey all of it)

It seems a little sadistic to me that god would set an impossible standard.

3. God sent Jesus (wiilingly) to die on the cross. (By the way, since according to the law, blood had to be shed for the remission of sin, Jesus made Himself the final sacrifice.)

And god isn't above this law?

 

[Henry]

I'm sorry ceridwen, but very little of your reply made sense. Could you please elaborate?

 

[Rex]

God knew that man would disobey. God created everything in such a way that facilitated this disobedience. How then, was it a choice?

Wouldn't this be assuming he believes in pre-destination? Which is a whole other debate in itself.

 

[painted wolf]

IMHO the Adam and Eve story was ment to scare people into obeying their religous leaders.

"Adam and Eve didn't do as God told them to and they got ALL OF US KICKED OUT OF PARADICE. We are chosen by God to tell you what he wants from you so you better not disobey or God will punnish you, and your children and so on and so forth."

"Remember when God punnishes, he punnishes EVERYONE FOREVER."

and so on.

Its amazing that the guilt complex inherant to the religion is built right into the creation story and continues from there.

wa:do

 

[standing_on_one_foot]

"Also, the Bible can be taken at face value, (in context) people constantly look for "mystical" meanings that aren't really there."

Hmm...I don't know, how do you know the "mystical" meanings weren't intended to be in there/aren't really in there? Some of the "mystical" interpretations I've seen are quite good, really. I mean, is it up to you to determine what people get out of this story? Personally, I favor the one that's big on personal responsibility because I happen to believe that that's an important thing. Is that wrong?

"The Adam and Eve story was ment to scare people into obeying their religous leaders."

Actually, I think the original purpose was more to explain why things are the way they are (why humans have knowledge, why, at the time, men were considered superior to women, why suffering exists, etc). I happen to think the story can and should have other meanings as well, but then, that's me.

"2. God sent the law. (knowing ahead of time that it would be impossible to obey all of it)"

Seems just a bit unfair, doesn't it? At least, if you expect people to follow it perfectly. Personally, I think the standards are higher than can be met because people are supposed to strive to be better (as opposed to actually being perfect). This idea is kinda summed up nicely in a Hebrew phrase from the Pirkei Avot: "Lo alecha hamlacha ligmor, v'lo ata ben chorin lehibatel mimena," which translates more or less as "You are not obliged to complete the work, but neither are you free to desist from it." It's an interesting thought, anyway.

 

[iwilliam]

Why would a loving god curse you to die for eating from a tree he created? Do you see how rediculous that sounds to a rational thinking person? Give the fairy tales back,and come on over to right knowldge. These stories were made up by man, to put fear in the hearts of the innocent.

 

[Scott1]

My (our) take on the story............

It seems that most are looking at the story and trying to find a literal meaning in the words.

Some food for thought from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

388 With the progress of Revelation, the reality of sin is also illuminated. Although to some extent the People of God in the Old Testament had tried to understand the pathos of the human condition in the light of the history of the fall narrated in Genesis, they could not grasp this story's ultimate meaning, which is revealed only in the light of the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.261 We must know Christ as the source of grace in order to know Adam as the source of sin. The Spirit-Paraclete, sent by the risen Christ, came to "convict the world concerning sin",262 by revealing him who is its Redeemer.

396 God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating "of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" spells this out: "for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die."276 The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"277 symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.



420 The victory that Christ won over sin has given us greater blessings than those which sin had taken from us: "where sin increased, grace abounded all the more" (Rom 5:20).

421 Christians believe that "the world has been established and kept in being by the Creator's love; has fallen into slavery to sin but has been set free by Christ, crucified and risen to break the power of the evil one. . ." (GS 2 § 2).

Peace,
Scott

 

[Ceridwen018]

Wouldn't this be assuming he believes in pre-destination? Which is a whole other debate in itself.

Is it really possible for god to believe in anything? God created reality, so pretty much whatever he thinks goes...I don't understand how god could believe in predestination, as opposed to not believing in it.

I'm sorry ceridwen, but very little of your reply made sense. Could you please elaborate?

Heh heh, alrighty I'll try. Now let's see here...

God knew that man would disobey. God created everything in such a way that facilitated this disobedience. How then, was it a choice?

Ok, so god knows everything, right? God is omniscient. Whether or not you believe in free will, I am assuming you believe that god knows what you have done, are doing, and will do. Likewise, god created everything. Before he began creation, there was the darkness and all that--other than the darkness, there was only god in the beginning...do we agree here? So, that said, we can conclude that before god even began creation, he knew Adam and Eve would sin against him, and he knew why they would do it. If god didn't want Adam and Eve to sin against him, why would he throw all the right elements for it into the pot, so to speak? He could have not created the devil, or the tree of knwledge, or the curious and slightly rebellious nature in Adam and Eve. He could have fashioned things in such a way that Adam and Eve would have remained faithful (and retained their free-will, if you believe in that), yet he chose not to. Why?

And god isn't above this law?

Basically, what I meant by this, was why couldn't god just snap his fingers and have our sins be forgiven and all that jazz? Why did he have to kill his only son? To take us all on a guilt trip? It seems incredibly unnecessary for Jesus tp have died like that. Why didn't god choose to do it in a different way--a way that didn't involve so much pain and suffering, perhaps.