Advaita Vedanta: The problem of ignorance.

[Runewolf1973]

So to me reality is neither One, nor is it Two. It is neither a true singularity, nor is it a true duality. It is Both. It is much like the YinYang symbol. Both the Yin and the Yang are necessary to create the YinYang, but they are not opposites, they are complementary, much like a conjoined twin in a way.

 

[Aupmanyav]

How can there be immense and clear mental events with no higher brain functioning remains a mystery to science.

Who said the brain does not function during an NDE? NDE is not death. Functioning of the brain makes all the difference. Brain functioning also depends on the temperature of the body. It can survive oxygen deprivation for some 45 minutes in a frozen condition.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. what is the ultimate cause of karma, ..

Brahman is sat-cit-ananda and if everything is Brahman and there is no ignorance in Brahman, then the existence of ignorance collapses the philosophy of Advaita.

You want a straight answer? It is probability (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle). Whether you accept it or not is your choice. Brahman is not a being, therefore the question of ignorance does not apply to it.

 

[George-ananda]

Who said the brain does not function during an NDE? NDE is not death. Functioning of the brain makes all the difference. Brain functioning also depends on the temperature of the body. It can survive oxygen deprivation for some 45 minutes in a frozen condition.

I read in many cases the higher brain functioning is shut-down (no detectible activity) but the experiencers have heightened experiences (suggesting consciousness expands without the limitations of the brain). One famous case is Dr. Eben Alexander. Plus experiencers report seeing the hospital environment from an out-of-body perspective including adjoining rooms.

 

[Runewolf1973]

I read in many cases the higher brain functioning is shut-down (no detectible activity) but the experiencers have heightened experiences (suggesting consciousness expands without the limitations of the brain). One famous case is Dr. Eben Alexander. Plus experiencers report seeing the hospital environment from an out-of-body perspective including adjoining rooms.

I agree with this.

Consciousness is our ability to interact with the environment in a complex manner. Those interactions which form our awareness extend far beyond and outside of the brain, therefore I believe that what we call "consciousness" is not a product of what is going on inside the brain so much as it is a result of what is going on outside of the brain. Interactions are not contained solely in the brain, but they are in a way translated or decoded by the brain. Light is translated into color, vibration is translated into sound, chemical variances are translated into taste and smell, etc... So is consciousness a product of the brain? Not entirely. It is a product of interaction...many forms of interaction occuring both in the brain and outside of the brain.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Everything interacts and in that way everything is also connected. The YinYang symbol (to me anyways) is a symbol of interaction...perhaps what could even be called "divine interaction" because it symbolizes the highest level of interaction attainable. I suspect the human brain limits our ability to interact. It shuts off certain connections in favor of other connections which may be more geared towards or more necessary for our survival as a species. When the brain shuts down, it is possible that a whole new world of interactive potential might in fact be opening up, but it may not be the same form of interaction we are accustomed to as consciousness.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I read in many cases the higher brain functioning is shut-down (no detectible activity) but the experiencers have heightened experiences (suggesting consciousness expands without the limitations of the brain). One famous case is Dr. Eben Alexander. Plus experiencers report seeing the hospital environment from an out-of-body perspective including adjoining rooms.

That is all imagination. The higher functions, memory, last the longest. Memory is the most prized possession of the brain. The sensors/motors are shut down first.

 

[George-ananda]

That is all imagination. The higher functions, memory, last the longest. Memory is the most prized possession of the brain. The sensors/motors are shut down first.

I think you got it all wrong but let's not debate that it in this thread.

 

[LAGoff]

So to me reality is neither One, nor is it Two. It is neither a true singularity, nor is it a true duality. It is Both. It is much like the YinYang symbol. Both the Yin and the Yang are necessary to create the YinYang, but they are not opposites, they are complementary, much like a conjoined twin in a way.

I like the fact that the YinYang symbol (along with-- perhaps-- that unmentionable symbol on Aupmanyav's head-- don't know-- would like to know more) are built for spinning.
It reminds me of the spinning and flashing sword at the entrance to the Garden / Tree of Life in chapter 3 Genesis.

May the spinning from one side to the other never end.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The symbol on Aupmanyav's head means 'the well-being of all" - Swasti. It is one of the most sacred symbols of 'dharmic' religions.

Swasti Mantra

Om Swastih, Swastih, Swastih.

Swasti = Su + Asti = Good + it is.

 

[aoji]

... why is there even such thing as ignorance to begin with? ...

Think back... when did you become self-conscious?

 

[aoji]

God cannot hide from Himself the fact that He is God.

Assumption made that God thinks. When you were in the womb, did you think?

 

[miodrag]

if Brahman, whose nature is limitless, were limited by the inability to apparently delude itself via Ignorance, it would not be limitless and, therefore, would not be Brahman

You do not seem to understand the meaning of your own words. If God, who is the all-powerful, would not be able to create the stone so heavy that He Himself cannot lift, then He would not be all-powerful, <- This statement is false, it is called self-referencing and it does not mean anything nor it explains anything. Simple logic. Which means that advaita, just like any other tradition, still does not have a straight answer to a simple logical questions: what is the bottom line, the ultimate cause for the existence of material world, how karma started etc.

You want a straight answer? It is probability (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle). Whether you accept it or not is your choice.

Probability and the principle of uncertainty apply to the physical world. Uncertainty is about not being able to pinpoint one parameter if another was pinned. That has nothing to do with our topic. The issue here is simple logic and not the laws of physics.

Brahman is not a being, therefore the question of ignorance does not apply to it.

Brahman is not a being!? Than what is it? A non-being!? Brahman does not even exist?
Please try at least to understand the issue: there is no ignorance in Brahman. Everything is Brahman. Then how come that we have ignorance?

 

[psychoslice]

I feel that there is a separation that is needed to live our life and to enjoy all that is separate, its only when we get attached to this separation that we suffer, because of suffering we then try to find a connection with whatever, we try in many ways, such as any material goods, sex, and even sports, and still we are not contented. Because of this suffering of trying to find an inner peace, we search high and low, we join religions of every kind, we go to places in the world that we believe is more holy than where we are, such as India, but this so called path is only taking us further away from who we truly are. The thing is we are all One, we are only separated by the mind, and the mind only, the mind is a great servant, but not a great master, its not dropping the mind that we need to do, its simple realizing that the mind is nothing more than a tool, or servant, by meditating on this truth we eventually awaken the true master within, we then through this realization realize that we were always there, in fact we could never be anywhere else, even if we tried.

 

[Aupmanyav]

When you were in the womb, did you think?

Aoji, I differ with you on this. Yes, the foetus thinks and squirms if it is on mother's spinal cord which is uncomfortable to it. Don't take the foetus as a lump of flesh. It is a living developing organism.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Think back... when did you become self-conscious?

Interesting response. Ignorance is created through self-interaction. A tree is not self-conscious, but it does interact. I would say ignorance is a product of complex interaction ie: the workings of the brain. Before we were self-conscious there was still various forms of interaction present, but it was interaction without ignorance. I think that nails it right there. Everything is interaction, but to be enlightened is to interact without ignorance...without the awareness of self. That is "doing without doing". That is what a tree does. It is to interact (do as nature intended) without the false illusion of being separate from everything else.

Do as One.

 

[Aupmanyav]

if Brahman, whose nature is limitless, were limited by the inability to apparently delude itself via Ignorance, it would not be limitless and, therefore, would not be Brahman

Which means that advaita, just like any other tradition, still does not have a straight answer to a simple logical questions: what is the bottom line, the ultimate cause for the existence of material world, how karma started etc.

Probability and the principle of uncertainty apply to the physical world. Uncertainty is about not being able to pinpoint one parameter if another was pinned. That has nothing to do with our topic.

Brahman is not a being!? Than what is it? A non-being!? Brahman does not even exist? Please try at least to understand the issue: there is no ignorance in Brahman. Everything is Brahman. Then how come that we have ignorance?

IMHO, both of you have the same misunderstanding. A human is composed of what exists (Brahman). It is not straight away Brahman. The composing, the structure, makes the difference. That is why it goes under ignorance. The properties of Na and Cl are different from NaCl (for those who have not read Chemistry, I think both of you are not in that category. The properties of salt are different from the properties of Sodium and Chlorine, though salt is made up of them. Furthermore, both Sodium and Chlorine atoms are nothing but fluctuations of energy).

I have given you a very straight explanation in my post # 23. Perhaps you have not paid attention to it. Karma starts in childhood when your actions affect others. Not being a believer in reincarnation, I dismiss transference of karma over various lives as superstition. We, who are composed of Brahman do exist in the physical world. Actually, that creates another problem as to what is physical and what is not physical. Is mass physical? Then, how come, it can change into non-physical energy? Probability and uncertainity control the universe, that is why this is very relevant to the topic. A case in example is that of a supernova - an exploding star. For reasons unknown to us it happens and, for all I know, it can happen to our sun also at any time.

"A supernova is a stellar explosion that briefly outshines an entire galaxy, radiating as much energy as the Sun or any ordinary star is expected to emit over its entire life span, before fading from view over several weeks or months. The extremely luminous burst of radiation expels much or all of a star's material at a velocity of up to 30,000 km/s (10% of the speed of light), driving a shock wave into the surrounding interstellar medium. This shock wave sweeps up an expanding shell of gas and dust called a supernova remnant. Supernovae are potentially strong galactic sources of gravitational waves. A great proportion of primary cosmic rays comes from supernovae." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova

On the left is Supernova 1987A after the star has exploded. On the right is the star before it exploded.
http://www.nasa.gov/audience/forstudents/5-8/features/nasa-knows/what-is-a-supernova.html

Brahman is certainly not a being. Though we do not know it well, it is some thing like energy, which gave rise to our universe and permeates every part of it. Our existence and that of other things proves its existence. And as I have mentioned earlier, since Brahman is not a being, the question of its being knowledgeable or ignorant does not arise. I have already answered your last question, it is because of composition, construction of things and beings