Advaita Vedanta: The problem of ignorance.

[Runewolf1973]

If everything in the physical/material realm is maya (illusion) brought about by ignorance, then why is there even such thing as ignorance to begin with? It doesn't make sense to me because although everything is supposed to be One as nothingness or Pure Consciousness, there is still this separate, distinct trait or quality to the universe that is ignorance. That is a duality.

 

[Acintya_Ash]

Ignorance is beginningless, so is mAya, but both end upon Awakening. Sure, there is duality but only for our conditioned minds, not for Brahman.

 

[wizanda]

It doesn't make sense to me because although everything is supposed to be One as nothingness or Pure Consciousness

Not everything is pure conscious; there are different degrees of consciousness.... The core of reality is pure; yet the further you go from the source, the darker/denser/more ignorant it becomes.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Ignorance is beginningless, so is mAya, but both end upon Awakening. Sure, there is duality but only for our conditioned minds, not for Brahman.

Why is there ignorance or conditioned mind to begin with?

 

[Runewolf1973]

Not everything is pure conscious; there are different degrees of consciousness.... The core of reality is pure; yet the further you go from the source, the darker/denser/more ignorant it becomes.

The presence of differing degrees of consciousness would indicate that Pure Consciousness is not changeless. There should be no such thing as "further from the Source" if that Source is in fact everywhere.

 

[Acintya_Ash]

The presence of differing degrees of consciousness would indicate that Pure Consciousness is not changeless. There should be no such thing as "further from the Source" if that Source is in fact everywhere.

Pure Consciousness/Source is the unchanging substratum, in which apparent changes takes place.

 

[wizanda]

The presence of differing degrees of consciousness would indicate that Pure Consciousness is not changeless.

To explain it, lets change pure consciousness for light, then as we get further away from the light source, the duller it gets....The light was still pure at its origins.

Not sure why anyone would think anything is changeless, in an ever evolving reality.

 

[Acintya_Ash]

Why is there ignorance or conditioned mind to begin with?

To ask why avidyA exists is logically illegitimate; besides, who asks the question? To add to the mystery, Shankara avowed that trying to find the locus of avidyA is ‘a wild goose chase’.
http://www.advaita-vision.org/q-358-maya-and-avidya/

 

[Aupmanyav]

A very good question, Runewolf, which is the core of what I understand of non-duality. Here is my explanation for it. The universe is filled with and composed of energy. Fluctuations are inherent in energy. We know these fluctuations as various elementary particles. At the moment, we know these many. There could be more. But that does not change the general picture, since they are all but fluctuations of energy.

These then combine to form electrons, protons, and neutrons. These sub-atomic particles form all atoms and molecules. Molecules combine to form the constituents of what we are composed of, blood, bones, flesh. They also form our body, including neurons and brain (through the process of evolution). How we perceive is through the senses and the senses are severely limited. The brain constructs various pictures, patterns and thoughts in our mind based on these sensory inputs.

With this kind of faulty input system and their interpretation, wrong conclusions are but natural. That is known in Hinduism as 'maya'. 'I' consider a 'keyboard' on which 'I' and typing. But really, both the 'keyboard' and 'myself' are nothing but fluctuations of energy. This fact has to be understood. If you and me, sit at a coffee table enjoying a cup, then 'you', 'myself', 'coffee', 'table', 'cup', 'plate'; they are all but fluctuations of energy.

Basically we are one. All things in the universe are none other than energy. But still ignorance occurs in our minds. I am not sure if t is all nothingness. Science has to prove it, though it is perfectly possible (Zero energy universe). So, where have we encountered duality in this?

Acintya_Ash: The above is the locus of 'a-vidya' (knowledgelessness). It was not possible at the time of Sankara, but we have a fair idea now.

 

[BSM1]

To explain it, lets change pure consciousness for light, then as we get further away from the light source, the duller it gets....The light was still pure at its origins.

Not sure why anyone would think anything is changeless, in an ever evolving reality.

But you're assuming the light has a defined and definite source. Shouldn't consciousness be compared to a light that surrounds rather emanates?

 

[wizanda]

But you're assuming the light has a defined and definite source. Shouldn't consciousness be compared to a light that surrounds rather emanates?

I'm not assuming really, it is based on my NDE, cross referenced with the religious knowledge globally.... From the CPU (Brahman), all reality is made manifest; it is like saying, that there is code surrounding us, yet it still emanates from the source.

If there was no source, and structure, then there would just be a blank hard drive.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Wizanda, NDE is an interesting phenomenon, but it does not reveal truth. It is because of increase of carbon-di-oxide in brain when new supply of oxygen does not reach it.

 

[George-ananda]

If everything in the physical/material realm is maya (illusion) brought about by ignorance, then why is there even such thing as ignorance to begin with? It doesn't make sense to me because although everything is supposed to be One as nothingness or Pure Consciousness, there is still this separate, distinct trait or quality to the universe that is ignorance. That is a duality.

Brahman is All - pure consciousness best described as being-bliss-awareness consciousness. So, in His creative aspect He creates a play/drama as divine sport. He separates Himself from Himself and becomes all this (as Krishna says in the Gita). Rays of the one Brahman animate matter and create life. In the next act of the play, the life gradually starts to learn and moves closer to the source of the ray and after much time realizes it always was the one source even when under the sense of separation (in ignorance). It's all a game.

So the answer to your question is that 'ignorance' is an intentional design element of this play.

 

[George-ananda]

Wizanda, NDE is an interesting phenomenon, but it does not reveal truth. It is because of increase of carbon-di-oxide in brain when new supply of oxygen does not reach it.

I think that explanation is many years old and refuted by NDE researchers evidence. How can there be immense and clear mental events with no higher brain functioning remains a mystery to science.

 

[miodrag]

If everything in the physical/material realm is maya (illusion) brought about by ignorance, then why is there even such thing as ignorance to begin with?

Nobody gives a straight answer to that question. No scripture, no saint, no avatar ever explained why all this. Why material world, why suffering, why ignorance... what is the bottom line?

Abrahamic religions struggle with the problem of theodicy, If there is suffering, then God is either not omniscient, and/or not all-powerful and/or not all-good. Christianity suggests that Satan is the root of all evil. And why is he like that? Because he abused the free will.

Free will is a convenient and logical explanation. If it is possible for something to happen, and eternity was provided, then some day it will happen.

In Eastern religions, concept of karma resolves the problem of theodicy, but just like in Abrahamic religions, the ultimate question is usually not addressed. If someone asks why we fell from the perfect position, what is the ultimate cause of karma, answer is usually: "no use asking, that is how it is, just be practical and work on your salvation." Which is similar to Voltaire's conclusion in "Candide" - never mind if we live in the best of all possible worlds, "we must cultivate our garden".

The reason for avoiding the straight answer is philosophically intriguing. There must be a good reason for this silence. Your guess is as good as mine... Maybe choice is more perfect option than no-choice, regardless the consequences, and hence the free will. If all this is just a divine play, as someone suggested, then we must have freely entered that play, knowing the consequences. If this was the case, then it is obvious why there was never an explanation - we would all be cursing God daily, for suffering for His pastime, and there would be no salvation, or the way out of the game. Maybe there is no answer at all. Not all "why" questions may have a valid answer. Another ultimate philosophical dilemma comes to mind: why is there anything rather than nothing? Even if everything is Brahman, why does Brahman exist? Or maybe it takes a shift of consciousness, a mental upgrade may be required to understand why. So far, the question remains open.

It doesn't make sense to me because although everything is supposed to be One as nothingness or Pure Consciousness, there is still this separate, distinct trait or quality to the universe that is ignorance. That is a duality.

Brahman is sat-cit-ananda and if everything is Brahman and there is no ignorance in Brahman, then the existence of ignorance collapses the philosophy of Advaita.

 

[LAGoff]

Brahman is All - pure consciousness best described as being-bliss-awareness consciousness. So, in His creative aspect He creates a play/drama as divine sport. He separates Himself from Himself and becomes all this (as Krishna says in the Gita). Rays of the one Brahman animate matter and create life. In the next act of the play, the life gradually starts to learn and moves closer to the source of the ray and after much time realizes it always was the one source even when under the sense of separation (in ignorance). It's all a game.

So the answer to your question is that 'ignorance' is an intentional design element of this play.

There are two things that are axiomatic for me:

1. God cannot create create something other than Himself.

2. God cannot hide from Himself the fact that He is God.

The former destroys Western Dualism; the latter destroys Eastern Non-Dualism.
So the two axioms cancel each other out, and I am left-- apophatically-- free from both 'East' and 'West', Haleluyah!

 

[Acintya_Ash]

then the existence of ignorance collapses the philosophy of Advaita.

2. God cannot hide from Himself the fact that He is God.

if Brahman, whose nature is limitless, were limited by the inability to apparently delude itself via Ignorance, it would not be limitless and, therefore, would not be Brahman

 

[LAGoff]

if Brahman, whose nature is limitless, were limited by the inability to apparently delude itself via Ignorance, it would not be limitless and, therefore, would not be Brahman

I didn't say 'apparently' hide, I said hide.

 

[Runewolf1973]

The way I see it, everything is One but in a constant state of apparent flux/change. So although that Oneness never changes (everything always remains One), the appearance of that Oneness does change, hence the illusion of separation. Therefore, that "ignorance" is like a wave on the Ocean which may swell up and disappear back into that Ocean as though it never existed to begin with. That Ocean is the Unified Field (Brahman) and the waves represent maya which comes out of that field...consciousness (ordinary consciousness), ignorance, life, death, matter, forms...all impermanent and changing just like a wave. The Unified Field is the ultimate, underlying force, field, or substratum from which all the known forces, interactions and particles emerge. It is not the act of driving, it is the Driver. It is not the act of movement or motion, it is the Mover. However, just as there cannot be a Mover without movement, or a Driver without driving, there cannot be Changeless without changing, or Oneness without duality. The Ocean needs the waves just like the waves need the Ocean. In that way everything is connected.




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[George-ananda]

2. God cannot hide from Himself the fact that He is God.

Advaita philosophers call this force Maya. From Wikipedia: In Advaita Vedanta philosophy, there are two realities: Vyavaharika (empirical reality) and Paramarthika (absolute, spiritual reality).[62] Māyā is the empirical reality that entangles consciousness. Māyā has the power to create a bondage to the empirical world, preventing the unveiling of the true, unitary Self—the Cosmic Spirit also known as Brahman.