Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I am not a Buddhist but that is exactly how I live.Well as a Buddhist i working on letting go of the attachments and just be in the moment
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Afraid of death?
- Thread starter Spirit of Light
- Start date
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Because they have NO IDEA what is on the other side of the great divide.
Either that or they think that death is final... Boy are they going to be surprised.
Death is final. Believers will be more surprised than the rest of us. I wouldnt want to see how they would take it, though. Probably worse than those who dont believe in life after death. We would have more distinct life experience when we see this is the only life we have. We dont take this life for granted for the one we hope (or have faith) we would be going.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I noticed in death-conversations I have every so often, Im somewhat surprised when we get to the death part. A few literally say (off memory): "Did we just come here out of no where?" another. "There is no reason to live without god."
The conversation is usually cut short. Accepting the idea of death takes time. But saying you know? therefore, you dont fear it? What about fear that is negative to where you can fear many things but not death?
In other words, what is wrong with fear?
The conversation is usually cut short. Accepting the idea of death takes time. But saying you know? therefore, you dont fear it? What about fear that is negative to where you can fear many things but not death?
In other words, what is wrong with fear?
Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
I would not describe my self as old (41 years old) But i have seen death to many times to be afraid, Both parents died long time ago 19 and 6 years ago, I been close to death a few times my self. But after 20 years of vipassana meditation i understood physical death is only a transition to something else.
Because your loved one is gone and you won't be seeing them anymore. Not sure what's hard to understand about that. I don't think anyone sees death as "no big deal". We can accept it but it's still a huge thing. Even other species mourn. Elephants are well-known for their mourning rituals.
Kangaroo Feathers
Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
I was part of the bomb squad for the 2000 Sydney Olympics, and we had that on our battalion t-shirtsReminds me of my favorite T-shirt
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Awesome!
To a considerable extent it is simple social conditioning and longing for acceptance; the supposed need to show fear of dying is a socially safe subject matter, so people bond over it without necessarily stopping to realize if they truly feel that way.
Another reason is a perhaps irrational association of death with pain.
Some might feel frustration and sense of loss out of knowning that their time is limited, I suppose.
Last but not least, I have met a fair number of people who seem to take for granted that a limited lifetime makes life itself "meaningless". That is an interesting if irrational sentiment, which hints at some form of expectation of having a "fair chance" of fulfilling one's life goals.
It would therefore follow (tentatively) that those same people have a fair amount of attachment to some mental picture of what a "fair life" would be and may be ill at ease with the realization that they are not likely to actually live through such a situation.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
I've been around a lot of people and never ran into folks like you describe above. Is this a Brazilian thing?
I would say so, @YmirGF .
It is no coincidence that Kardecist Spiritism, now almost forgotten in the France where it arose, is alive and thriving here. It is a curious if seriously mishappen doctrine, which resembles Scientology in many respects, and Islam in a few others.
It is entirely predictable for anyone who casually states that he believes that death is final nearby a sizeable group to receive as a reply from someone that such can't be, because in that case life would "not make sense".
I can't be sure, but I believe that a part of it is the unusual history of Brazil. Huge territory, lots of adventurism, frequent daydreams of "making it big" for reasons quite unrelated to merit or competence, recent and proud Monarchy, far too many natural resources for our own good, and above all the frequent and disconcerting coexistence of degrading misery and nauseous opulence almost side-by-side.
Brazilians are often sort-of-bred to expect life to be both unfair and subject to exciting, surprising turns. Even our fiction tends to take that shape.
And yet the average Brazilian spends most of his life dealing with a looming sense of powerlessness and disappointment.
I figure that such an environment can only make promises of endless lives with ever growing prosperity (which is not too far from the core of Kardecist doctrine) appealling, reason be darned.
It is, in fact, a very prestiged doctrine in these parts, for no fault of its own doctrine.
Perhaps the best illustration of this is the very overt existence of a Brazilian Spiritist Judges Association.
Associação Brasileira de Magistrados Espíritas – Wikipédia, a enciclopédia livre
ABRAME
ABRAME – A Abrame
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Audie
Veteran Member
Sounds like a place for Prosperity Gospel to thrive.
Right you are. IURD and many other Prosperity Churches exist and are very influential here.
Universal Church of the Kingdom of God - Wikipedia
Teologia da prosperidade – Wikipédia, a enciclopédia livre
They have, as a matter of fact, been a significant support for Bolsonaro's recent election.
There is a permanent, sometimes ugly tension between "Evangélicos" and Spiritists here in Brazil. For the most part, the Evangélicos tend to be more outspoken.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
How do you know it's a transition?
Since consciousness has to do with the brain and mind, when we are in an accident or surgery (for me), we have an altered state of consciousness. We are still alive just not aware but our heart is still active.
Do you think our transition depends on whether the heart still beats?
I'd assume if there is a transition the mind would be aware of it whether the heart is beating or not. If one is isolated from the other, scientifically that would be...well...spectacular for lack of a better word.
But I don't see the difference between a the brain not conscious and death. In both we aren't aware. What makes one an altered state of consciousness and another transition only because the heart stopped and nothing more?
If I asked that right. Will be back to edit.
Audie
Veteran Member
Not surprised. Crazy stuff, that!
"Money!! Cometh unto me, NOW!!"
Guess who voted for Trump? Lets make Brazil and USA
into the United Hoards of Trumparia! Terrif, no?
Salvador
RF's Swedenborgian
Life has not been very good to me so far but I hope this last stretch will be an improvement, if I ever get to retire.
I am somewhat afraid of death because it does not come with a travel brochure, so I have no idea what the scenery and accommodations will look like or what the itinerary will be.... that is something to be afraid of given I am going to spend all of eternity there.
I expect there will be a point in my life when I won't wanna party anymore. I'll gracefully exit life's dance floor. I'll then be thinking to myself, how luck I've been to have experience a decently comfortable life. At this moment, I'll be ready to accept the fact I was forever non-existent before I was born as well as I'll be eternally non-existent after ionic currents stop flowing across my brain's neurons. ...
I hope everybody of great age has this peace of mind, preparedness to once again being nothing.
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rrobs
Well-Known Member
You are right about no longer seeing your loved ones as being at least part of the reason for the sorrow at funerals. But I think most people believe their loved one doesn't really die, that they go to some form of paradise or they will return later as something/someone else. Either way, there ought to be a healthy dose of happiness for the dearly departed. While such a sentiment might be there to some degree, I think it is far outweighed by the grief of the lost love one. Either people don't really believe their loved one is in a paradise or they are very selfish. I don't say that in judgement, or suggest that people are weak, it just seems to fit the observed facts.
Excellent observation regarding elephants. That in itself speaks volumes about death.
Given this is a religious forum, I hope nobody will be too offended if I quote a short section from the scriptures.
1Cor 15:24-26,
24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
Belief is of course optional. It just seems appropriate to the discussion.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
What do you think that "something else" is? Have you caught any glimpses of it? I find this fascinating.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes, of course I have realized that, but that does not mean I have to like it.
Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. I always say, "I'm not afraid of being dead... I'm afraid of how I'll get that way!" It's rarely a pleasant process. No doubt plenty are afraid of that alone. I'm afraid of what I'll leave behind that other people have to deal with/take care of. Some can't imagine a sudden, blotted-out end to their existence, whether it's due to ego* or a lack of imagination. Some think something comes after but don't know what. People would rather stay with what they know-- even if it's unpleasant-- than take a chance on something they don't.
*Goes both ways, either "I can't imagine a world without me!" or "crap, once I'm dead I'll be *completely* irrelevant." I always say part of the reason I haven't the huevos to kill myself is because nobody would care and that's a bit disconcerting.
*Think about it... every time we say of someone who has died of an illness, "at least they're no longer suffering," that's just a consolation prize. Even if they welcomed the end because it ended their suffering (as with my grandfather, who had cancer for years and was well ready to die before he actually did), they likely only wanted to die because of their illness, not because they didn't actually want to live-- they probably would have preferred to have a healthy life worth living.
I suppose it depends on your definitions here. Some people would separate "the brain" and "the soul" (so it really does depend on what you mean consciousness to be). These would argue that the brain is physical and can fail, the soul cannot and that is what continues, regardless of what the physical brain is doing.
(Also, do you know that you weren't aware while unconscious? Or do you just not remember? Take, for example, the "twilight" method of anesthesia. You had a colonoscopy... you were likely aware during it... you just don't remember what happened. Doesn't mean you weren't aware, just means you can't recall being aware. I'm not saying everybody's awake during their open-heart surgery and just can't remember, but more that assuming you didn't have some sort of brain activity just because you don't remember having same may not be accurate. Your brain was likely doing something, even if it wasn't actively observing the outside world.)
Some people will even admit they're crying for themselves rather than the loved one; not everyone crying at a funeral thinks the person may not be in "a better place." And if the grief (or any emotion) of the moment outweighs the bigger picture at that time, that's human nature as well. Kids don't want the momentary pain of a vaccination even if they're able to understand it will ultimately protect them from worse things. People get excited about being "in love" even if the person is bad for them in the long run. People are happy and say "congratulations!" for a new baby even if they know the people they're congratulating will be lousy parents or have a harder life with a child or whatever. People eat the cupcake they see in front of them even though they know they want to lose weight/are going to have to work harder at the gym later. Etc.
*Goes both ways, either "I can't imagine a world without me!" or "crap, once I'm dead I'll be *completely* irrelevant." I always say part of the reason I haven't the huevos to kill myself is because nobody would care and that's a bit disconcerting.
For some people, it is. For some people, their entire existence is extreme illness, poverty, violence, etc. (and there's no way I'm going to sit in my safe life and think I get to make judgments about whether suffering is "worth it" when I cannot fathom the suffering some people face. It's not for me to decide the nice things I get to experience make the immense pain others experience worth it, just because I'm lucky enough to both enjoy those nice things and that those things can balance out the minor problems of my life...)
Because anything you've already done is... already done. You don't have to do it again. (And, for those afraid of the unknown, you now know how it ends.) I'm not nervous about the dentist appointment last week; it's over. The one next week, though? Yup.
Even if death is no big deal, you do not miss the person who has died? My mother died a few months ago. I cry because I miss having her in my life. I cry for the things we did not get to do and the conversations we did not have, and now will never do and have. I cry because she had to get sick. I cry because her death was a release from all of the continually-worsening health problems she had to suffer for decades and the fact that she had to go through those things and then consider death to be an acceptable out* when I know that had she not been miserable from her illnesses she would have preferred to live because then she COULD live-- it was just that being sick made life not worth it. I cry because we don't know what comes after and I don't know if I will ever see her again. That has nothing to do with how I view death, but with missing a person and being unhappy about the circumstances of their death.
*Think about it... every time we say of someone who has died of an illness, "at least they're no longer suffering," that's just a consolation prize. Even if they welcomed the end because it ended their suffering (as with my grandfather, who had cancer for years and was well ready to die before he actually did), they likely only wanted to die because of their illness, not because they didn't actually want to live-- they probably would have preferred to have a healthy life worth living.
I suppose it depends on your definitions here. Some people would separate "the brain" and "the soul" (so it really does depend on what you mean consciousness to be). These would argue that the brain is physical and can fail, the soul cannot and that is what continues, regardless of what the physical brain is doing.
(Also, do you know that you weren't aware while unconscious? Or do you just not remember? Take, for example, the "twilight" method of anesthesia. You had a colonoscopy... you were likely aware during it... you just don't remember what happened. Doesn't mean you weren't aware, just means you can't recall being aware. I'm not saying everybody's awake during their open-heart surgery and just can't remember, but more that assuming you didn't have some sort of brain activity just because you don't remember having same may not be accurate. Your brain was likely doing something, even if it wasn't actively observing the outside world.)
Some people will even admit they're crying for themselves rather than the loved one; not everyone crying at a funeral thinks the person may not be in "a better place." And if the grief (or any emotion) of the moment outweighs the bigger picture at that time, that's human nature as well. Kids don't want the momentary pain of a vaccination even if they're able to understand it will ultimately protect them from worse things. People get excited about being "in love" even if the person is bad for them in the long run. People are happy and say "congratulations!" for a new baby even if they know the people they're congratulating will be lousy parents or have a harder life with a child or whatever. People eat the cupcake they see in front of them even though they know they want to lose weight/are going to have to work harder at the gym later. Etc.