afterlife

[hindupridemn]

I've heard some people claiming to be Buddhist do not believe in any kind of hereafter (Nirvanna/Nibanna, rebirth). However, this contradicts Buddha's own statement in Dhammapada 1:16. How do they esplain this?

 

[AmerikanZen]

the concept of the afterlife was borrowed from Egyptian culture...Whether its used in a Buddhist context I can't say for sure since I'm a novice.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

The Buddha remained silent on whether Tathagata survives death. Anatta says that the self is in every moment being reborn and there is no innate essence of a being which survives death.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

Yes, there's afterlife. According to one's merits and demerits, the mindstream is reborn in one of six categories of realms, including "heaven" realms. But these heaven realms are not the liberation or enlightenment sought.

 

[DreadFish]

What Shuddasattva said. The sort of reality a mind experiences is based on their karmic imprints. Kind of like how a depressed nihilist will see everything as meaningless and listless while the happy child sees them as awesome and bright and exciting; its all about mental imprints and perceptions. Nonetheless, these are all impermanent.

So there is no afterlife in the same sense because those are based on an eternal afterlife. Nirvana is note a place or any thing at all; it is not conditioned.

 

[Ablaze]

Rebirth and the "afterlife" are deeply misunderstood subjects in the context of Buddhism. The Buddha's earliest teaching on the notion of rebirth and the "afterlife" differs substantially from the popular theories of reincarnation present in other world religions and even in some modern Buddhist sects.

As should be evident from an understanding of the concept of anatta (non-self or not-self), the Buddha did not support the existence of a permanent selfhood that persists from life to life, like a soul. He discouraged needless speculation on the matter, deeming it unnecessary to the cessation of suffering.

Bhaddekaratta Sutta

"You shouldn't chase after the past or place expectations on the future. What is past is left behind. The future is as yet unreached. Whatever quality is present you clearly see right there, right there. Ardently doing what should be done today, for — who knows? — tomorrow death. There is no bargaining with Mortality & his mighty horde."

Majjhima Nikaya 131

In other discourses, the Buddha explains that to preoccupy oneself with speculations regarding past or future lives, even the existence of an immortal self in the present, is fruitless. He demands of no one any blind faith in rebirth or the existence of an afterlife. Investing one's confidence in anything requires first hand experience of it. The Buddha explains that past and future life speculation leads to various types of self-view, a fetter and hindrance.

Sabbasava Sutta

"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

"He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing."

Majjhima Nikaya 2

So although there are rebirth and afterlife teachings in Buddhism, they are ultimately of no use in the path toward the cessation of dukkha or suffering, the goal of the Buddhist.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

Rebirth and the "afterlife" are deeply misunderstood subjects in the context of Buddhism. The Buddha's earliest teaching on the notion of rebirth and the "afterlife" differs substantially from the popular theories of reincarnation present in other world religions and even in some modern Buddhist sects.

As should be evident from an understanding of the concept of anatta (non-self or not-self), the Buddha did not support the existence of a permanent selfhood that persists from life to life, like a soul. He discouraged needless speculation on the matter, deeming it unnecessary to the cessation of suffering.



In other discourses, the Buddha explains that to preoccupy oneself with speculations regarding past or future lives, even the existence of an immortal self in the present, is fruitless. He demands of no one any blind faith in rebirth or the existence of an afterlife. Investing one's confidence in anything requires first hand experience of it. The Buddha explains that past and future life speculation leads to various types of self-view, a fetter and hindrance.



So although there are rebirth and afterlife teachings in Buddhism, they are ultimately of no use in the path toward the cessation of dukkha or suffering, the goal of the Buddhist.

I don't want to verge towards debate (perhaps we can debate, time allowing, in the same-faith debates subsection), but I do not think the above represents, at all, a fully contextual understanding of the nikayas - and their stance on rebirth, an essentially selfless Self, and afterlives ... or the development of the abhidharma and its strategies of working with/through the self in the larger context of a quasi-Self.

...To say nothing of the further developments of Buddhist thought in the Prajnaparamita & Tathagatagarbha cycles of teachings, and the subsequent tantric developments, and their own emphases on theories of self and afterlife.

Also, what is the sound of two hands clapping, very loudly?

 

[Ablaze]

To be overly concerned with rebirth and the afterlife is to be disconnected from our current reality. The Buddha of the Nikayas always returns to suffering, its origin and its cessation, when the metaphysical questions are raised.

Paccaya Sutta

"When a disciple of the noble ones has seen well with right discernment this dependent co-arising and these dependently co-arisen phenomena as they are actually present, it is not possible that he would run after the past, thinking, 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past?' or that he would run after the future, thinking, 'shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' or that he would be inwardly perplexed about the immediate present, thinking, 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?' Such a thing is not possible. Why is that? Because the disciple of the noble ones has seen well with right discernment this dependent co-arising and these dependently co-arisen phenomena as they are actually present."

Samyutta Nikaya 12.20

These passages abound in great number. Yet in spite of his advice not to get carried away by the past or future, the Buddha still made frequent reference to the notion of rebirth. If there is no soul according to the Buddha, what is reborn? Yes, the Buddha taught about rebirth and the afterlife, albeit with a redefinition of terms, a strategy he often employed. The Mahayana notion of upaya parallels this nicely.

The Buddha used the term punabbhava, which translates literally to re-becoming, to denote the process. It is often mentioned as punabbhava bhinibbatti - the arising of re-becoming.

What, however, is re-becoming?

Some schools argue that subtle consciousness is reborn. The Lankavatara Sutra terms it the alaya vijnana (storehouse consciousness), the subtleties of which are profound. Yet the Buddha taught that it is not an eternal consciousness that is reborn.

Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

"The Teacher calls you, friend Sāti."

"As you say, friend," the monk Sāti the Fisherman's Son replied. Then he went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him, "Is it true, Sāti, that this pernicious view has arisen in you — 'As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is just this consciousness that runs and wanders on, not another'?"

"Exactly so, lord. As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is just this consciousness that runs and wanders on, not another."

"Which consciousness, Sāti, is that?"

"This speaker, this knower, lord, that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & evil actions."

"And to whom, worthless man, do you understand me to have taught the Dhamma like that? Haven't I, in many ways, said of dependently co-arisen consciousness, 'Apart from a requisite condition, there is no coming-into-play of consciousness'? But you, through your own poor grasp, not only slander us but also dig yourself up [by the root] and produce much demerit for yourself. That will lead to your long-term harm & suffering."

Then the Blessed One said to the monks, "What do you think, monks? Is this monk Sāti, the Fisherman's Son, even warm in this Dhamma & Vinaya?"

"How could he be, lord? No, lord."

When this was said, the monk Sāti, the Fisherman's Son, sat silent, abashed, his shoulders drooping, his head down, brooding, at a loss for words.

Majjhima Nikaya 38

Consciousness, like all other parts of what constitute a living being, is dependently arisen. There is nothing about a person that persists eternally. In the Kutuhalasala Sutta, the Buddha remarks, "I designate the rebirth of one who has sustenance, Vaccha, and not of one without sustenance. Just as a fire burns with sustenance and not without sustenance, even so I designate the rebirth of one who has sustenance and not of one without sustenance." (SN 44.9)

However, take a look at the Jara Sutta of the Atthakavagga: "Those people who were seen and heard and called by their names as such and such, only their names remain when they have passed away." (Snp 4.6)

Interestingly, the Atthakavagga of the Sutta Nipata is the earliest extant record of the Buddha's teachings. The Buddha spoke to many different types of people, from all walks of life, and so his audience varied. He adjusted his teachings to fit the audience, which is extremely evident in the Digha Nikaya which is addressed largely to the Brahmins and also in the Tathagatagarbha Sutras which also have a specific audience in mind. The Mahayana, which emphasizes the bodhisattva path of boundless compassion, makes thorough use of upaya, "skill in means" or skillful means of teaching. Yet even in Mahayana, rebirth and the afterlife, although conventionally true, are not part of ultimate reality. See the two truths doctrine.

Through a careful examination of the Nikayas, rebirth and teachings on the afterlife often make their appearance in the context of morality. They are part of a pedogogy of ethics, serving as incentive to do good and disincentive to cause harm. In fact, they have the capacity to motivate, to inspire, to move beings to action.

Nalakapana Sutta

"So, Anuruddha, it is not for the purpose of scheming to deceive people or for the purpose of flattering people or for the purpose of gain, honour, and renown, or with the thought "let people know me to be thus", that when a disciple has died, the Tathagata declares his reappearance thus "so-and-so has reappeared in such-and-such a place" Rather, it is because there are faithful clansmen inspired and gladdened by what is lofty, who when they hear that, direct their minds to such a state, and that leads to their welfare and happiness for a long time."

Majjhima Nikaya 68

Yet once again, as has been stated before, in spite of their conventional truth, they must be set aside to realize the ultimate truth of Nirvana.

Needless to say, rebirth and the afterlife play a part in Buddhism, but they are not the be-all and end-all of the Buddha's wise teachings.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

Shall we take this to same-faith debate then?

 

[Doktormartini]

Hey everyone. I used to post here awhile back in 2008. I converted to Buddhism at the beginning of this year

Anyways, as for this post...Shin Buddhist really don't believe in Reincarnation. Or at least don't give it much thought, although they still believe in the Pure Land.

 

[AmerikanZen]

Shall we take this to same-faith debate then?

If you think about it most debates can be reduced to "I'm right and you're wrong" or vice versa.