AGS' Religious field: what does it mean?

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I was going to put this in the one-on-one section but at @paarsurrey's request I've put it here. I reserve the right to ask the mods to move it to the one-on-one section if it becomes too cluttered or gets derailed.

In another thread paarsurrey expressed confusion at my religious identification. He doesn't believe it makes sense so I'll try and explain to him why I have put down what I have in the hope it will make more sense to him.

I'll break it down into two parts; my Paganism being the first part.

Pagan - Greek Polytheism

This one is fairly straight forward. I identify as a polytheistic Pagan who primarily (but not exclusively worships gods the ancient Greeks worshipped. I feel more drawn to the writings of Homer, Plato & Hesiod than I do to the likes of Sallustius who was more influenced by Roman Paganism than Greek. The Greek gods fascinate me in ways most others do not and I've had what I believe is an intense experience with at least one of them.

Now for the second part.

Zoroastrian philosophy

This, I suspect is the part that confuses you the most. That's understandable. To allay that confusion, it would help if I briefly explained the Gathas. The Gathas aren't similar to the Quran because the Quran is the result of Allah speaking to Muhammad and laying down his commandments. The Gathas are actually the opposite - they're hymns composed by Zarathustra to Ahura Mazda. They're not so much a revealed message from God to man as an inspired entreaty from man to God. An analogy you'd probably be familiar with is if Muhammad had written down the prayers he made to Allah before Allah chose him to be his final messenger. If there's a part of the Quran that details those prayers then basically it would be synonymous to that in isolation.

In it they explore Zarathustra's desire to achieve physical & mental serenity; both for himself and his friends & family. I made a post elsewhere that I'll paste in here because it's a ready summary of how I feel:

I chose to add the caveat of 'Zoroastrian philosophy' because what Zoroaster wrote is so profound, regardless of what he says about the nature of deity. The idea that life is a struggle between Progressive Mind and Regressive Mind hits home because so much of what we are is mental: how we think and speak both informs & reflects our view of the world and how we act in it. Also, as someone who suffers from depression ranging from light to suicidal at times (don't worry, I get help whenever it becomes that bad. Which isn't very often), the doctrine of a struggle between good & evil, light & dark in the mind is unbelievably potent to me because that is the truth. It's the reality of what I have to go through every day of my life. From the moment I wake up there's a war in my head. How then can Zoroaster's message not be a personal philosophy; words to shape one's life around?

My own experience of the divine conflicts with Zarathustra's but his view of the world resonates with me so strongly that it seems foolish to dismiss what he says because of our differing experiences. In fact my polytheism is one of only a few things preventing me from embracing Zoroastrianism as my professed religion.

In summary: "Zoroastrian philosophy" is my desire to achieve Good Thoughts, Good Words and Good Deeds; to improve myself and the lives of others around me and ultimately to achieve serenity of body & mind.

Over to you, paarsurrey. You have a question?

 

[blue taylor]

I was going to put this in the one-on-one section but at @paarsurrey's request I've put it here. I reserve the right to ask the mods to move it to the one-on-one section if it becomes too cluttered or gets derailed.

In another thread paarsurrey expressed confusion at my religious identification. He doesn't believe it makes sense so I'll try and explain to him why I have put down what I have.

I'll break it down into two parts; my Paganism being the first part.

Pagan - Greek Polytheism

This one is fairly straight forward. I identify as a polytheistic Pagan who primarily (but not exclusively worships gods the ancient Greeks worshipped. I feel more drawn to the writings of Homer, Plato & Hesiod than I do to the likes of Sallustius who was more influenced by Roman Paganism than Greek. The Greek gods fascinate me in ways most others do not and I've had what I believe is an intense experience with at least one of them.

Now for the second part.

Zoroastrian philosophy

This, I suspect is the part that confuses you the most. That's understandable. To allay that confusion, it would help if I briefly explained the Gathas. The Gathas aren't similar to the Quran because the Quran is the result of Allah speaking to Muhammad and laying down his commandments. The Gathas are actually the opposite - they're hymns composed by Zarathustra to Ahura Mazda. They're not so much a revealed message from God to man as an inspired entreaty from man to God. An analogy you'd probably be familiar with is if Muhammad had written down the prayers he made to Allah before Allah chose him to be his final messenger. If there's a part of the Quran that details those prayers then basically it would be synonymous to that in isolation.

In it they explore Zarathustra's desire to achieve physical & mental serenity; both for himself and his friends & family. I made a post elsewhere that I'll paste in here because it's a ready summary of how I feel:



My own experience of the divine conflicts with Zarathustra's but his view of the world resonates with me so strongly that it seems foolish to dismiss what he says because of our differing experiences. In fact my polytheism is one of only a few things preventing me from embracing Zoroastrianism as my professed religion.

In summary: "Zoroastrian philosophy" is my desire to achieve Good Thoughts, Good Words and Good Deeds; to improve myself and the lives of others around me and ultimately to achieve serenity of body & mind.

Over to you, paarsurrey. You have a question?

In summary: "Zoroastrian philosophy" is my desire to achieve Good Thoughts, Good Words and Good Deeds; to improve myself and the lives of others around me and ultimately to achieve serenity of body & mind.
Touche. Nothing else comes closer to humanism than Zoroaster's "Good Thoughts ,Good Words, Good Deeds". The short original Gathas.

 

[MD]

"With an open mind, seek and listen to the highest ideals. Consider the most enligthened thoughts. Then choose your path, person by person, each for oneself" - Zoroaster

"He who sows the ground with care and diligence acquires a greater stock of religious merit than he could gain from the reptition of ten thousand prayers" - Zoroaster

From these quotes we can see how much emphasis Zoroaster placed on the individual and on importance of working towards a world we want, rather than praying for it or accepting whatever comes our way. It also shows how far modern Zoroastrianism has moved from the words of Zoroaster. Heck a lot of old Zoroastrianism moved from the gathas as well. A lot of the Avesta was written by priests and Zoroastrian intellectuals, who injected their own interpretations of the Gathas and pre Zoroastrian Iranian myth into the books.

I often wonder how many of these priestly interpretations were later adopted by Christians and Muslims as 'divine truth'? How many people must have died in holy wars because of the supposed divine nature of some Zoroastrian priests writing?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Can I take it from the lack of response that you don't have any in engaging with me after all, @paarsurrey ?

 

[paarsurrey]

what does it mean?


Fo Guang Shan advocates the “The Three Acts of Goodness,” which are say good words, do good deeds and thinking good thoughts.
http://www.nantien.org.au/en/sites/upload/newsletter/nan_tien_news_oct_2013.pdf
Sorry.It is from Buddha!!!???

Is it? Please
Regards

P.S.

• Better than a thousand hollow words, is one word that brings peace. Buddha

Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/b/buddha.html

• Just as treasures are uncovered from the earth, so virtue appears from good deeds, and wisdom appears from a pure and peaceful mind. To walk safely through the maze of human life, one needs the light of wisdom and the guidance of virtue. Buddha

Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/b/buddha.html

• We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think. When the mind is pure, joy follows like a shadow that never leaves. Buddha

Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/b/buddha.html

Regards

​

 

[paarsurrey]

AGS' Religious field: what does it mean?

@A Greased Scotsman
I am comfortable on the Religious Debate Forum where everybody writes and is welcome.
Zoroaster also had an open debate in the court of King Vishtaspa:

"The Turning Point
Zarathustra was 42 when he and his followers finally reached the court of King Vishtaspa. The wise King had granted Zarathustra an audience, but he had also invited all the priests and wise men of his court to attend and listen to Zarathustra and question him about his philosophy. The King had wisely set the scene for a debate, if it need be.
At the debate in the court of King Vishtaspa, Zarathustra eloquently spoke and convincingly responded to all challenges and questions."
http://pza.org.sg/web/the-turning-point/
So, please don't get embarrassed if others also add their wisdom in the discussion. Truth ( of Ahura-Mazda) will prevail:

[38:85] God said, ‘Then the truth is, and the truth I speak,
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=38&verse=84​

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

In summary: "Zoroastrian philosophy" is my desire to achieve Good Thoughts, Good Words and Good Deeds; to improve myself and the lives of others around me and ultimately to achieve serenity of body & mind.
Touche. Nothing else comes closer to humanism than Zoroaster's "Good Thoughts ,Good Words, Good Deeds". The short original Gathas.

One may like to read Yesterday at 6:58 PM#5. Please
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

"With an open mind, seek and listen to the highest ideals. Consider the most enligthened thoughts. Then choose your path, person by person, each for oneself" - Zoroaster

It is wonderful from Zoroaster.
@A Greased Scotsman
One should have followed Zoroaster , unless one is confused and join together another religion, unnecessarily.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

One may like to read post #3546 in another thread, related to it.

Regards

 

[von bek]

This one is fairly straight forward. I identify as a polytheistic Pagan who primarily (but not exclusively worships gods the ancient Greeks worshipped. I feel more drawn to the writings of Homer, Plato & Hesiod than I do to the likes of Sallustius who was more influenced by Roman Paganism than Greek. The Greek gods fascinate me in ways most others do not and I've had what I believe is an intense experience with at least one of them.

The Greek gods have called to me since I was a child. Even as a kid I began worshipping the Olympians. My level of devotion was inconstant when I was younger, through most of college I was a strict materialist. In my senior year of college I began practicing Buddhism. Through that, I returned to the gods. At first, I tried to relate to them as the Indian devas such as Indra. It did not resonate with me. I believe in the Olympians, they are real to me. I love all the gods and goddesses; but, I have a smaller number of deities that I regularly worship. Of all the gods, the one whom I have felt closest to ever since I was a kid, is Hermes. God of speech, inventor of writing, protector of travelers, revealer of mysteries; the great god Hermes, quick-witted son of thundering Zeus and beautiful Maia, is truly our friend!

 

[paarsurrey]

"With an open mind, seek and listen to the highest ideals. Consider the most enligthened thoughts. Then choose your path, person by person, each for oneself" - Zoroaster

Is it in the Gathas? Please
Please provide its reference.
Regards

 

[MD]

Is it in the Gathas? Please
Please provide its reference.
Regards

http://www.zarathushtra.com/z/gatha/dji/The Gathas - DJI.pdf
Ahunavaiti 3 [Y 30]. This Ha presents some of the central themes of the theology. Zarathushtra, in the first verse, declares that he is about to announce the divine teachings. The next verse informs his audience that they should listen to his words with an enlightened mind, and then decide upon a way of life. This is the theme of choice, fundamental to the faith. We humans have free will, we must choose, and bear the responsibility for that choice.

http://www.avesta.org/yasna/yasna.htm#y28

 

[paarsurrey]

http://www.zarathushtra.com/z/gatha/dji/The Gathas - DJI.pdf
Ahunavaiti 3 [Y 30]. This Ha presents some of the central themes of the theology. Zarathushtra, in the first verse, declares that he is about to announce the divine teachings. The next verse informs his audience that they should listen to his words with an enlightened mind, and then decide upon a way of life. This is the theme of choice, fundamental to the faith. We humans have free will, we must choose, and bear the responsibility for that choice.
http://www.avesta.org/yasna/yasna.htm#y28

Good teachings from Zoroaster. I may not believe all of them for some reasonable reasons though.
Thanks and regards

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

It is wonderful from Zoroaster.
@A Greased Scotsman
One should have followed Zoroaster , unless one is confused and join together another religion, unnecessarily.
Regards

What do you think I'm doing by trying to emulate 'Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Actions' into my life if not following Zoroaster? Our experiences of deity differ but that doesn't mean he can't be right about anything else. So no, I do not "join together another religion, unnecessarily". I don't have to believe that Good Thoughts, Words & Deeds stem purely from Ahura Mazda to recognise that attaining & emulating these three things can improve my life; nor do I need to believe that Ahura Mazda alone is worthy of worship in order to empathise with the idea that our existence is divided into physical & mental realms. That seems a self-evident truth given my own experiences.

I don't need to blindly agree with everything a person says in order to respect them or agree with things they say. Case in point, there are posters on this board who show great respect for Muhammad but who aren't Muslims.

 

[MD]

What do you think I'm doing by trying to emulate 'Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Actions' into my life if not following Zoroaster? Our experiences of deity differ but that doesn't mean he can't be right about anything else. So no, I do not "join together another religion, unnecessarily". I don't have to believe that Good Thoughts, Words & Deeds stem purely from Ahura Mazda to recognise that attaining & emulating these three things can improve my life; nor do I need to believe that Ahura Mazda alone is worthy of worship in order to empathise with the idea that our existence is divided into physical & mental realms. That seems a self-evident truth given my own experiences.

I don't need to blindly agree with everything a person says in order to respect them or agree with things they say. Case in point, there are posters on this board who show great respect for Muhammad but who aren't Muslims.

The more I study the Gathas, the more I find Zoroaster was someone like Confucius, rather than someone like Moses or Mohammed. This is going to be part of the transformation Zoroastrianism will take this century, and most religions will eventually follow this as well. The concept of prophets with revelations from gods and angels will lose favor as we become a more rational species, however some faiths will make their transformations long, painful and drawn out. It will take centuries.

 

[MD]

Good teachings from Zoroaster. I may not believe all of them for some reasonable reasons though.
Thanks and regards

To each their own.

 

[paarsurrey]

To each their own.

This is one aspect of the correct approach and it is supported by Quran/Islam/Muhammad:
The Holy Quran : Chapter 109: Al-Kafirun الکافِرون

[109:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[109:2] Say, ‘O ye disbelievers!
[109:3] ‘I worship not that which you worship;
[109:4] ‘Nor worship you what I worship.
[109:5] ‘And I am not going to worship that which you worship;
[109:6] ‘Nor will you worship what I worship.
[109:7] ‘For you your religion, and for me my religion.’
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=109

Did Zoroaster or Confucius support your above point? If yes, then please quote from them with the reason given by them. If not, then why not?
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

The more I study the Gathas, the more I find Zoroaster was someone like Confucius, rather than someone like Moses or Mohammed. This is going to be part of the transformation Zoroastrianism will take this century, and most religions will eventually follow this as well. The concept of prophets with revelations from gods and angels will lose favor as we become a more rational species, however some faiths will make their transformations long, painful and drawn out. It will take centuries.

Do you mean that Zoroaster's teachings are only confined to Gathas? Please
Regards