• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

aham brahmasmi --why so confusion ?

kalyan

Aspiring Sri VaishNava
See this @Kirran @Acintya_Ash

na tv evaham jatu nasam
na tvam neme janadhipah
na caiva na bhavisyamah
sarve vayam atah param

Internet translation, not perfect but it works : Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be

Prakritim purusham chaiva vidhyanaadee ubhaavapi
(Gita 13:19)
"Understand that Prakriti and Purusha are both eternal".

See what Sri Krushna Paramaatma did there , he said that 'him/paramaatma' , 'atma/jIva' and 'Prakriti' are ETERNAL..wow!
 

Kirran

Premium Member
But kalyan, I think that anybody who'd disagree with you on those points (and who you'd be trying to bring those points to) would understand Krishna's words in the BG differently to you anyway. So I don't see there's much exchange of information and understanding possible in this type of discussion.
 

Acintya_Ash

Bhakta
it is satyam because what we see as log of wood one days can turn it into ashes, only the form and name changes but the 5 elements it is composed off never go away, matter can be neither created nor can be destroyed kind of eternal
Alright, but do we know what is Matter? Has anyone ever experienced matter or a physical world outside his Consciousness? :)
 

Acintya_Ash

Bhakta
Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be
How does this prove Atman and Brahman are different? Krishna starts his instructions by pointing out the eternal nature of all beings, Atman, which is immortal.

Prakritim purusham chaiva vidhyanaadee ubhaavapi
(Gita 13:19)
"Understand that Prakriti and Purusha are both eternal".

See what Sri Krushna Paramaatma did there , he said that 'him/paramaatma' , 'atma/jIva' and 'Prakriti' are ETERNAL..wow!

If they are all one, how can they not be? :p
 

Chakra

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
How does this prove Atman and Brahman are different? Krishna starts his instructions by pointing out the eternal nature of all beings, Atman, which is immortal.
I'm not getting into this debate, but basically Krishna says pronouns like "I", "you", etc. If Atman and Brahman were the same, he would not have to differentiate himself from Arjun.
 

Acintya_Ash

Bhakta
Krishna says pronouns like "I", "you", etc. If Atman and Brahman were the same, he would not have to differentiate himself from Arjun.
For the sake of instructing Arjuna, Krishna would have used pronouns. Its impossible to explain something without considering duality.
I'm done posting here.
Hare Krishna
 
Last edited:

Goblin

Sorcerer
who the hell is this guy.

ya know dvaita philosophy started after the introduction of christianity and islam.
advaita philosophical school started in the 8th century,

philosophical schools aside. gurus who preached these philosophies can be traced back.
the earliest accounts of strict advaita teachings date back to the 4th century, while the early accounts of strict dvaita teachings date back to the 5th century.

although this isnt exactly unbiased to say, mystics from several other religious groupings have confirmed advaitas stance, this indicates in a very scientific way that regardless of codes or belief there is an underlying truth that is found at the end of the road of spiritual growth. Sihks, buddhists, jains, shintoists, and pagan mystery schools all end up with pretty much the same conclusion as advaita.


on the other hand the only religions that are even vaguely similar to dvaita are abrahamic religions, hmm suspicious....
 

kalyan

Aspiring Sri VaishNava
I'm not getting into this debate, but basically Krishna says pronouns like "I", "you", etc. If Atman and Brahman were the same, he would not have to differentiate himself from Arjun.
QFT....in saying 'you' first Krushna shows 1 jIva and point to other countless jIvas by doing that, he is saying jIvas are also different due to bondage with karma bandhanam .Sri Krushna is a darn GENIUS !
 

kalyan

Aspiring Sri VaishNava
who the hell is this guy.

ya know dvaita philosophy started after the introduction of christianity and islam.
advaita philosophical school started in the 8th century,

philosophical schools aside. gurus who preached these philosophies can be traced back.
the earliest accounts of strict advaita teachings date back to the 4th century, while the early accounts of strict dvaita teachings date back to the 5th century.

although this isnt exactly unbiased to say, mystics from several other religious groupings have confirmed advaitas stance, this indicates in a very scientific way that regardless of codes or belief there is an underlying truth that is found at the end of the road of spiritual growth. Sihks, buddhists, jains, shintoists, and pagan mystery schools all end up with pretty much the same conclusion as advaita.


on the other hand the only religions that are even vaguely similar to dvaita are abrahamic religions, hmm suspicious....
I would not have replied to this post but the sheer stupidity of post made me do so.!
dvaita, advaita or visista-advaita only come from the vedas which were written down in 3000 BC (some say 5000 BC but thats ok )

2nd, you are entering into discussion which you seem to have zero idea about. dvaita or visista-advaita did not start in 4th century as per my point above.
The one of the greatest acharyas/gurus nammalwar works entirely show visista-advaita....Nammalwar was born in 3059 BCE........
 

kalyan

Aspiring Sri VaishNava
For the sake of instructing Arjuna, Krishna would have used pronouns. Its impossible to explain something without considering duality.
I'm done posting here.
Hare Krishna
would have, should have, could have ambiguity is useless.
My point is not convince the posters, but my point is don't abuse 'BhagawadGita' by trying to twist the clear sentences
 

shivsomashekhar

Well-Known Member
I'm not getting into this debate, but basically Krishna says pronouns like "I", "you", etc. If Atman and Brahman were the same, he would not have to differentiate himself from Arjun.

How then, would you expect Krishna to communicate with Arjuna? I mean, without the "I" and the "you"?
 

kalyan

Aspiring Sri VaishNava
But kalyan, I think that anybody who'd disagree with you on those points (and who you'd be trying to bring those points to) would understand Krishna's words in the BG differently to you anyway. So I don't see there's much exchange of information and understanding possible in this type of discussion.
ok let me break it down for you guys.

If atma EQUALS Krushna or if you guys are saying 'atma' and when Krushna says 'me' are the same? why in the world Sri Krushna gave different ways to achieve

1. attaining self
2. attaining him alone

simple isnt it ? think over it and let me know when you guys can come up with an answer to this simple question? @Acintya_Ash @Kirran @axlyz
 
Last edited:

तत्त्वप्रह्व

स्वभावस्थं निरावेशम्
if it is clear thoughts?
The confusion is not so much in the texts as it is in the approach taken by each school.

Advaita resorts to explaining away ~98% of the śrutis as either karma kāṇḍa and/or vyāvahārika (including śrutis from upaniṣads), and of the remaining ~2% only portions of the sentences are used to establish their thesis.

V-advaita though accepting karma kāṇḍa distinction, it at least takes all upaniṣad vākyas on the same footing.

Tattvavāda considers the entire gamut of śruti vākyas to convey tattva unequivocally and with a common purport with karma kāṇḍa meanings being only secondary.

Well, @तत्त्वप्रह्व will address this with more detail, but I have never seen someone say that there are more Abheda Shrutis than Bheda Shrutis. The verses that advocate difference clearly outnumber the verses that advocate non-dualism, but there's no problem with that. I don't know about Advaitins, but Vishistadvaitins can explain both of them pretty easily without resorting to word jugglery and favoring certain verses.

Well, anyone with even basic understanding of epistemology of advaita, wouldn't make such surmises about other schools, but it is really pointless to clarify to those whose only qualification is ignorance even of the school that they seem to profess.

ya know dvaita philosophy started after the introduction of christianity and islam.
advaita philosophical school started in the 8th century,
philosophical schools aside. gurus who preached these philosophies can be traced back.
the earliest accounts of strict advaita teachings date back to the 4th century, while the early accounts of strict dvaita teachings date back to the 5th century.
You haven't a clue about what you are talking. There were dvaitins before Śri Śaṅkara, during his time, and later too. The very naming shows that his philosophy is that which is against it. Śri Śaṅkara himself uses the term dvaitinaḥ to refer to those schools.

although this isnt exactly unbiased to say, mystics from several other religious groupings have confirmed advaitas stance, this indicates in a very scientific way that regardless of codes or belief there is an underlying truth that is found at the end of the road of spiritual growth. Sihks, buddhists, jains, shintoists, and pagan mystery schools all end up with pretty much the same conclusion as advaita.
What you are saying is tantamount to holding that advaita is basically same as buddhism, jainism, with which traditionally advaitins themselves will disagree.

on the other hand the only religions that are even vaguely similar to dvaita are abrahamic religions, hmm suspicious....
Really? In what way? Do abrahamic religions believe in Viṣṇu? Or in the vedas? Or in reincarnation? Or in infinite kalyāṇa guṇas (~divine characteristics) of Viṣṇu? Or in Him having multiple forms? Or the possibility of worshipping those forms in icons? Or not resorting to animal sacrifices? Or in performing yajñas? Even jewish and zoroastrian texts have corrupted teaching from the vedas, it only goes to show the influence of vaidika thoughts on those religions, not the other way round.

From sai babas to kriya yoga schools, it has been advaitins who have tried to form some kind of syncretism, perhaps much to remorse of traditional advaitins.

@kalyan most people here do not understand even basic saṁskṛtam, what exactly are to trying to learn by discussing upaniṣads!? If all you want is copy-paste of poor english translations that belie even the schools that are presented, it is really not that difficult - wikipedia/sacred texts/etc will give more than enough of such crap. Do you think anyone has even bothered reading what you've written in the OP to understand?

नारायणायेतिसमर्पयामि।
 

Goblin

Sorcerer
Krishna is in full realization of Brahman since birth and is thus called Avatar.
most humans are not and are thus arent on the same level as krishna.

but through yoga can be in their final lifetime.
 

Goblin

Sorcerer
different philosophies resemble diffent religions.

advaita resembles buddhism
while dvaita resembles christianity.

i say dvaita schools of thought resemble christianity in the same way advaita resembles buddhism.
 

Goblin

Sorcerer
shankara lived in the 8th century of course their were dvaita before that but it didnt get organized into a school of thought til later.

unless the history books are inaccurate
 

तत्त्वप्रह्व

स्वभावस्थं निरावेशम्
Krishna is in full realization of Brahman since birth and is thus called Avatar.
Even in traditional advaita, Kṛṣṇa is considered as brahman itself, only His form being aupādhika.
while dvaita resembles christianity.
i say dvaita schools of thought resemble christianity in the same way advaita resembles buddhism.
And how exactly? Remember, in the vyāvahārika, even advaitins revere the Divine in the same way as everybody else. The very conception of Viṣṇu as immanent-cum-transcendent, bearing divyāyudhas, and definite characteristics, and as one taking avatāras, as being both with and without forms, as being both male and female and either and neither... What exactly is it that you find similar between dvaitic schools and christianity? Does the christian god have form? If so how is it? How about allah? How is its form. Do christian/islamic gods take avataras? If so, which are they? Can worshipping avataras confer mokṣa? When you say christian is it catholic or protestant? Or the other sects like mormon etc?
shankara lived in the 8th century of course their were dvaita before that but it didnt get organized into a school of thought til later.
But then, authoring a brahmasūtra bhāṣya to refute other schools would be preposterous! You are also forgetting (assuming you've studied advaita works) that Śri Śaṅkara comments on the pañcarātra system - the system was (still is) the single most important theological foundation for dvaitic systems. Even the old tantrika schools have derived several concepts from the pañcarātras.

श्रीकृष्णार्पणमस्तु।
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I'm not getting into this debate, but basically Krishna says pronouns like "I", "you", etc. If Atman and Brahman were the same, he would not have to differentiate himself from Arjun.
That is because Arjuna does not yet understand the oneness of you and me. He will understand this only by the end of 18 Chapter (otherwise, there would have not been any need of further instructions). :D

arjuna uvāca
"Naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā, tvat-prasādān mayācyuta;
sthito'smi gata-sandehaḥ, kariṣye vacanaḿ tava." BG 18.73

Arjuna said: My illusion is destroyed, I have found my memory by your favor, O my Krishna. I am now firm and free from doubt and will do as you say.
 
Last edited:
Top