Al Khidr and the 'necessary evil' in World religions.

[Caladan]

Al Khidr, ('The Green One'), the interesting figure of Islamic tradition. he is said to be a peculiar figure that Moses travels with. Moses is disturbed by the actions of Al Khidr (Such as sinking a ship, killing a young man), and has a hard time coping with it. Al Khidr tells Moses from the beginning that his philosophy will conflict with his own teachings, and indeed he proves that to Moses.
but the underlying message of his actions, turns out to be a reflection of 'necessary evil', his actions, although seemingly violent and even wicked on their surface, serve a greater good in reality, as he seems to have a sublime knowledge of reality, and as can be seen within Islam, some consider him to be a prophet.
Al Khidr tests the faith of Moses in a way which can be reflected in the tale of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, and indeed some consider the Green Knight to originate from the character of Al Khidr, 'The Green One' that arrived through the cultural exchange brought by the crusades.

I dont post this in the Islam DIR, because I would like to have more than traditional opinions and posts on this interesting figure, although some of those are welcomed as well.

What are your opinions of scriptural narratives that reflect a consideration of the bigger picture through seemingly evil or rather questionable actions? you can share interesting and colorful figures from world religions and mythology, such as tricksters.

If you have an input on Al Khidr, have your opinions or more information to share, please do.

 

[Caladan]

Moses said to him: 'May I follow you, so that you may guide me by that which you have been taught?'
'you will not bear with me,' replied the other. 'For how can you bear with that which is beyond your knowledge?'
Moses said: 'If God wills, you shall find me patient: I shall in no way cross you.'
He said: 'If you are bent on following me, you must not question me about anything until I mention it to you myself.'
The two set forth, but as soon as they embarked, Moses' companion bored a hole in the bottom of the ship.
'It is to drown her passengers that you have bored a hole in her?' Moses asked. 'A strange thing you have done.'
'Did I not tell you,' he replied, 'that you would not bear with me?'
'Pardon my forgetfulness,' said Moses. 'Do not be angry with me on account of this.'
They journeyed on until they fell in with a certain youth. Moses' companion slew him, and Moses said: 'You have killed an innocent man who has done no harm. Surely you have done a wicked thing.'
'Did I not tell you,' he replied, 'that you would not bear with me?'
Moses said: 'If ever I question you again, abandon me; for then I should deserve it.'
They travelled on until they came to a city. They asked the people for some food, but they declined to receive them as their guests. There they found a wall on the point of falling down. His companion restored it, and Moses said: 'Had you wished, you could have demanded payment for your labours'.
'Now has the time arrived when we must part,' said the other. 'But first I will explain to you those acts of mine which you could not bear to watch with patience.
'Know that the ship belonged to some poor fishermen. I damaged it because in their rear there was a king who was taking every ship by force.
'As for the youth, his parents both are true believers, and we feared lest he should plague them with his wickedness and unbelief. It was our wish that their Lord should grant them another in his place, a son more righteous and more filial.
'As for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city whose father was an honest man. Beneath it their treasure is buried. Your Lord decreed, as a mercy from your Lord, that they should dig up their treasure when they grew to manhood. What I did was not done by my will.
'That is the meaning of what you could not bear to watch with patience.'

~The Cave, Qur'an

Al-Khiḍr (right) and Dhul-Qarnayn, here referring to Alexander the Great, marvel at the sight of a salted fish that comes back to life when touched by the Water of Life.

 

[Sahar]

It's all about the "bigger picture" as you said. What Al Khaidr did by the will of Allah represents "predestination" of Allah. This is exactly what happens in our lives, we may view the calamity as evil but subhan Allah, it turns out to hide mercy inside it. "But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not" Al-Baqara: 216
The knowledge that Moses went to gain is a different kind of knowledge that we humans don't have. We don't have the knowledge of the unseen or the future so that we can see the bigger picture at the time of calamity but the believer should trust his God and what He ordained for him, the believer should trust His wisdom and what He arranged for him.
"Wonderful is the affair of the believer! His affair in their entirety are good for him: if good befalls him, he is thankful, and that is good for him. And if harm befalls him, he is patient, and that is good for him. And this (prosperous state of being) is only for the believer." the Prophet pbuh said.

It's noteworthy that Moses whom God talked to directly and the Torah is revealed to; the great prophet was very keen to meet Al Khidr to gain more knowledge. Also his humbleness in learning and with his teacher Al Khidr is a lesson to any student.

 

[.lava]

there is no other like him but he is not a Prophet. he is commander of army of skies. he will be till the end of time & will die when time ends. many Muslims here meet him. some become his student. science he was given by God is not that easy to understand. Moses (PBUH) did not understand either therefor he failed at the end of his journey with him. we have a few kinds of science. science of Ledun is given by Allah which means people can not learn Ledun just because they want to. that's the science he was given.

.

 

[Sunstone]

I rather like the guy!

 

[Caladan]

I rather like the guy!

Any other eccentric figures or perhaps tricksters that you find fitting to place in the concept of influencing the bigger picture by unorthodox actions?

 

[TashaN]

That is an interesting thread, and this story always inspire me especially when i meet people who complain about bad things happening to them all the time, or the old rant about God which it goes like, if there was God, there won't be any evil or poor people on earth.

I find it more interesting that a Jew brought this issue up because i thought you would take it more from a Judaism point of view. Although i noticed that you might not be a strict Jew regarding religion, but i think it would add a lot to the discussion if you could give us the other version of the story in Judaism scripture and how similar they might be.

 

[Caladan]

i think it would add a lot to the discussion if you could give us the other version of the story in Judaism scripture and how similar they might be.

That is an excellent idea. just give me some time to find an interesting character and tale. :yes:

 

[NoahideHiker]

Al Khidr, ('The Green One'), the interesting figure of Islamic tradition. he is said to be a peculiar figure that Moses travels with. Moses is disturbed by the actions of Al Khidr (Such as sinking a ship, killing a young man), and has a hard time coping with it. Al Khidr tells Moses from the beginning that his philosophy will conflict with his own teachings, and indeed he proves that to Moses.
but the underlying message of his actions, turns out to be a reflection of 'necessary evil', his actions, although seemingly violent and even wicked on their surface, serve a greater good in reality, as he seems to have a sublime knowledge of reality, and as can be seen within Islam, some consider him to be a prophet.
Al Khidr tests the faith of Moses in a way which can be reflected in the tale of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, and indeed some consider the Green Knight to originate from the character of Al Khidr, 'The Green One' that arrived through the cultural exchange brought by the crusades.

I dont post this in the Islam DIR, because I would like to have more than traditional opinions and posts on this interesting figure, although some of those are welcomed as well.

What are your opinions of scriptural narratives that reflect a consideration of the bigger picture through seemingly evil or rather questionable actions? you can share interesting and colorful figures from world religions and mythology, such as tricksters.

If you have an input on Al Khidr, have your opinions or more information to share, please do.

In general people who claim to know the will of G-d and believe in "necessary evils" make me nervous. The lines between what is necessary and what is forbidden become quickly blurred when personal desire becomes part of the equation.

 

[Caladan]

In general people who claim to know the will of G-d and believe in "necessary evils" make me nervous. The lines between what is necessary and what is forbidden become quickly blurred when personal desire becomes part of the equation.

I see your point, which would make several of the Israelite biblical personas greatly psychotic figures. like the prophet Elijah slaughtering the Baal prophets.

 

[kiwimac]

I have to say that I find this simply a way to justify the means via the end. It is not a philosophical idea with which I can agree. Doing evil to do good is like having sex for virginity's sake.

 

[NoahideHiker]

I see your point, which would make several of the Israelite biblical personas greatly psychotic figures. like the prophet Elijah slaughtering the Baal prophets.

Yes, these examples too.

 

[Dragonlance]

kiwimac

Thats true, there is no justification for evil, as evil is being understood (by us). However the story is an allegory about why there are things happening in the world wich we think are disagreeable to our sensibilities on what we think is good or bad. The story can be interpreted both ways, either as a justification of the ends of bad deeds, or it can be seen as a story showing us how little we know about what is going on. It puts into question our ability to actually know good and evil.

Remember the story from the Bible, when Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge they were driven out from Eden. That story can be interpreted in the way that if we think we know good from evil, we would have divine judgement and be like God. But since we are not God, we are Gods creations, this knowledge will instead make our lives miserable as we think we are the ones with the ability for divine judgement. We become "Pharao" that way and see the world as centered around us and our human laws and ethics. With such a perspective we cant ever understand why there is so much suffering in the world. In the end we will come to realize that there is nothing we can do, we can only trust in Gods providence and in His supreme command. But it is God that is in charge and we dont know whats best for us. God does, else he wouldnt have made us.

 

[neves]

kiwimac

Thats true, there is no justification for evil, as evil is being understood (by us). However the story is an allegory about why there are things happening in the world wich we think are disagreeable to our sensibilities on what we think is good or bad. The story can be interpreted both ways, either as a justification of the ends of bad deeds, or it can be seen as a story showing us how little we know about what is going on. It puts into question our ability to actually know good and evil.

Remember the story from the Bible, when Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge they were driven out from Eden. That story can be interpreted in the way that if we think we know good from evil, we would have divine judgement and be like God. But since we are not God, we are Gods creations, this knowledge will instead make our lives miserable as we think we are the ones with the ability for divine judgement. We become "Pharao" that way and see the world as centered around us and our human laws and ethics. With such a perspective we cant ever understand why there is so much suffering in the world. In the end we will come to realize that there is nothing we can do, we can only trust in Gods providence and in His supreme command. But it is God that is in charge and we dont know whats best for us. God does, else he wouldnt have made us.

good post...

 

[SageTree]

One instructing me in meditation has asked me to read about Al-Khidr as part of the teaching.

Old thread, so thought I'd Bump this one and maybe get some new voices and reflections a few years down the road from others who have replied here.

Once I have something to add I will.

:namaste
SageTree

 

[Assad91]

I love sura kahf. The story ot Al Khidr and Moses (as) is one of my favorites. I enjoy the simple fact that at first the deeds seem evil and harmful, yet are rightous.

 

[arthra]

Baha'u'llah cites a Hadith concerning Khidr:

And He -- may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him -- hath said: "I announce unto you a city, on the shores of the sea, white, whose whiteness is pleasing unto God -- exalted be He! It is called 'Akká. He that hath been bitten by one of its fleas is better, in the estimation of God, than he who hath received a grievous blow in the path of God. And he that raiseth therein the call to prayer, his voice will be lifted up unto Paradise. And he that remaineth therein for seven days in the face of the enemy, God will gather him with Khidr -- peace be upon Him -- and God will protect him from the most great terror on the Day of Resurrection." And He -- may the blessings of God, -- exalted be He -- and His salutations be upon Him -- hath said: "There are kings and princes in Paradise. The poor of 'Akká are the kings of Paradise and the princes thereof. A month in 'Akká is better than a thousand years elsewhere."

~ Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 177


I also came across a reference to Khidr in a book by an early Baha'i in re. the Druzes and the Cave of Elijah on Mount Carmel...


But Khidr, as prophet of pre-Mosiac times, is greatly honoured by the Druzes. He, according to their sacred legend, having drunk of the Water of Immortality, is now alive, and will live for evermore. He dwells in the Invisible Kingdom, but assumes bodily form and appears to those who love him in their dreams.

The places where Khidr is seen in dreamland are held sacred.

These holy places are numerous. Muslims also hold these shrines in veneration, making pilgrimages to them, praying for such benefits as healing, and vowing to return and give thinks, when their prayers are granted.

The Cave of Elijah on Mount Carmel is one of the shrines, where Khidr is also honoured both by Druzes and Muslims. Important pilgrimages are made to this cave at certain seasons of the year, where a lamb is sacrificed in memory of Abraham and of Isaac, whom they look upon as friends of Khidr, also associated with Moses and Elijah.

~ Lady Blomfield, The Chosen Highway, p. 198

Another reference to Khidr by Marzieh Gail has Khidr as "symbolizing the true guide. "...he stands pre-eminently for the inner light of saintship as opposed to the intellectual, legalistic, and apostolic aspects ofprophecy... Like the Sufi Pir (Murshid) he claims silent and unquestioning obedience to his authority.." from Nicholson, Commentary, 1,25.

 

[Atman]

Khadir is perhaps one of my favorite figures in Islamic literature. He reminds me a lot of some of the Mahasiddhas in Tantric Buddhism, preforming seemingly immoral acts that turn out to indeed be moral or beneficial in nature. My one qualm with figures like Khadir in Islam, or say Tilopa in Buddhism is that the idea that this philsophy of seemingly wrong actions actually having a righteous purpose in the end can easily be abused by cult leaders who will claim there is a "righteous intention, yet to be understood" behind their immoral acitons. Case in point both Khadir and Tilopa tell their disciples (Moses and Naropa respectively) not to question these actions. Fascinating stories none the less

 

[Godobeyer]

there is no other like him but he is not a Prophet. he is commander of army of skies. he will be till the end of time & will die when time ends. many Muslims here meet him. some become his student. science he was given by God is not that easy to understand. Moses (PBUH) did not understand either therefor he failed at the end of his journey with him. we have a few kinds of science. science of Ledun is given by Allah which means people can not learn Ledun just because they want to. that's the science he was given.

.

I disagree with you brother , some sholars opinions said he is prophet because Allah show him the futur events , that Moses (pbuh) ignored them !!!
personaly i think he is prophet .

Allah knows best

 

[sun rise]

I was going to start another thread but discovered this one. The Parable of Moses and Khidr in the Holy Qur spoke to me - it has the ring of truth. It also illustrates the richness of the Quran compared to debates about a few parts that bother people.