Allah, Yahweh, or Jehovah

[rosends]

I looked at the website. Fascinating. I didn't realize you thought King Agrippa II was the anointed one of Daniel. Perhaps from the Hebrew you can tell me what it means, this anointed one?

OH! But before you do, you can also tell us how Agrippa II:

*Finished the transgression of Israel
*Ended human sins
*Reconciled human sin
*Ushered in everlasting righteousness
*Sealed up (hid from the Jewish people) vision and prophecy
*Anointed the Most Holy (Place)

OH! AND WAS MESSIAH THE PRINCE:

“Seventy sevens are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

25 “Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

Agrippa II is MESSIAH THE PRINCE? Really, Rabbi, really?

Please stop inventing things and introducing them into your poor translations
25: And you shall know and understand that from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be] seven weeks, and [in] sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times.

כהוְתֵדַע וְתַשְׂכֵּל מִן מֹצָא דָבָר לְהָשִׁיב וְלִבְנוֹת יְרוּשָׁלִַם עַד מָשִׁיחַ נָגִיד שָׁבֻעִים שִׁבְעָה וְשָׁבֻעִים שִׁשִּׁים וּשְׁנַיִם תָּשׁוּב וְנִבְנְתָה רְחוֹב וְחָרוּץ וּבְצוֹק הָעִתִּים:

Where does it say "prince"? Hint -- it doesn't.

Then you want to get into all the things you thin are hallmarks of the "messiah" which simply aren't? Are you going to keep misquoting text to establish your points?

Really?

 

[rosends]

Let's take off the g then and yield OY.

Oy, Rabbi, you COMPLETELY DODGED, and I say this respectfully, the point. A singular nation (doesn't have to be Israel!) despises HIM. MULTIPLE nations despise Israel. Him isn't Israel.

You have ignored what I wrote. The "singular" nation issue was resolved 900 years ago. Did you miss that part? Guess so.

A singular nation (doesn't have to be Israel!) despises HIM. MULTIPLE nations despise Israel. Him isn't Israel.

I guess, if you ignore the actual Hebrew (which isn't a strength of yours so I can see why you would ignore it). Oy, indeed.

If you are trying to win me back to the side of right and sense, not loving Y'shua, you are not doing such a hot job. I can get any rabbi in town to say my Hebrew is poor! The ancient Greek, not so much!

I'm not trying to win you anywhere. I have no reason to think that you were ever Jewish that I should "win you back." You are a Christian. Good for you. Have fun with that. I don't expect Christians to know Hebrew.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Please stop inventing things and introducing them into your poor translations
25: And you shall know and understand that from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be] seven weeks, and [in] sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times.

כהוְתֵדַע וְתַשְׂכֵּל מִן מֹצָא דָבָר לְהָשִׁיב וְלִבְנוֹת יְרוּשָׁלִַם עַד מָשִׁיחַ נָגִיד שָׁבֻעִים שִׁבְעָה וְשָׁבֻעִים שִׁשִּׁים וּשְׁנַיִם תָּשׁוּב וְנִבְנְתָה רְחוֹב וְחָרוּץ וּבְצוֹק הָעִתִּים:

Where does it say "prince"? Hint -- it doesn't.

Then you want to get into all the things you thin are hallmarks of the "messiah" which simply aren't? Are you going to keep misquoting text to establish your points?

Really?

I knew you would say that! I knew it! Unfortunately, and this breaks my heart, I also suspected, but wasn't 100% sure, that you would duck all this, too, that Agrippa II did NOT:

*Finish the transgression of Israel
*End human sin
*Reconcile human sin
*Usher in everlasting righteousness
*Seal up (hid from the Jewish people) vision and prophecy
*Anoint the Most Holy (Place)

Go ahead, take a deep breath, and then tell us all how that is all NOT in the Hebrew regarding the Messiah who is NOT the Prince.

Thanks!

PS. You fell into my little Hebrew trap. You should have said, "Agrippa is anointed in the Hebrew but is not the Messiah in the Hebrew."

Is King Agrippa II the MESSIAH OF ISRAEL?

 

[BilliardsBall]

You have ignored what I wrote. The "singular" nation issue was resolved 900 years ago. Did you miss that part? Guess so.

I guess, if you ignore the actual Hebrew (which isn't a strength of yours so I can see why you would ignore it). Oy, indeed.

I'm not trying to win you anywhere. I have no reason to think that you were ever Jewish that I should "win you back." You are a Christian. Good for you. Have fun with that. I don't expect Christians to know Hebrew.

Wow, so now you have left... insults. Clearly, you are neither trying to win me back to "authentic Judaism" or treat me as a goy with any respect, either.

 

[rosends]

I knew you would say that! I knew it! Unfortunately, and this breaks my heart, I also suspected, but wasn't 100% sure, that you would duck all this, too, that Agrippa II did NOT:

*Finish the transgression of Israel
*End human sin
*Reconcile human sin
*Usher in everlasting righteousness
*Seal up (hid from the Jewish people) vision and prophecy
*Anoint the Most Holy (Place)

Go ahead, take a deep breath, and then tell us all how that is all NOT in the Hebrew regarding the Messiah who is NOT the Prince.

Thanks!

PS. You fell into my little Hebrew trap. You should have said, "Agrippa is anointed in the Hebrew but is not the Messiah in the Hebrew."

Is King Agrippa II the MESSIAH OF ISRAEL?

Wow, you really know nothing I guess. Jewish kings were considered anointed (though legally, all did not HAVE to be anointed - the talmud discusses exactly who had to be) so, since Agrippa was the king, he was a moshiach, which simply means "one who was anointed". That much is simple. You can read more here https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledg...exts/daniel-9-a-true-biblical-interpretation/

And next, do you really not understand that there are prophecies for the messiah to come which don't apply to other prior kings, and prophecies about events that took place that are separate? That a prophecy about Agrippa who was a king (thus, a "messiah") is not the same as a prophecy about the future King Messiah?

So, again -- David was a messiah. Saul? Messiah. Solomon? Messiah...on down the line to Agrippa. Messiahs. And in the future there will be a king messiah who ushers in the messianic age during which there will be all those fine prophecies which are unrelated to Agrippa, or Chizkiyahu, or any other king. This is basic stuff and it eludes you.

 

[rosends]

Wow, so now you have left... insults. Clearly, you are neither trying to win me back to "authentic Judaism" or treat me as a goy with any respect, either.

I can't care to win you back if you were never here and in terms of respect, you get what you give.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Wow, you really know nothing I guess. Jewish kings were considered anointed (though legally, all did not HAVE to be anointed - the talmud discusses exactly who had to be) so, since Agrippa was the king, he was a moshiach, which simply means "one who was anointed". That much is simple. You can read more here https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledg...exts/daniel-9-a-true-biblical-interpretation/

And next, do you really not understand that there are prophecies for the messiah to come which don't apply to other prior kings, and prophecies about events that took place that are separate? That a prophecy about Agrippa who was a king (thus, a "messiah") is not the same as a prophecy about the future King Messiah?

So, again -- David was a messiah. Saul? Messiah. Solomon? Messiah...on down the line to Agrippa. Messiahs. And in the future there will be a king messiah who ushers in the messianic age during which there will be all those fine prophecies which are unrelated to Agrippa, or Chizkiyahu, or any other king. This is basic stuff and it eludes you.

I am utterly aware that kings were anointed. I'm aware of oil used in anointing, etc. I'm aware that Daniel 9 uses a word meaning Messiah and not King and that you continue to refer me to a Lubavitch site (Lubavitchers feel free to lie to win converts, against the Decalogue regarding false witness). I'm aware that NOW you are parsing the prophecy to say Agrippa was one of the anointed kings but that the rest of the awesome prophecy, the restoration and judgment of Israel and the end of human sin has nothing to do with an "Anointed King". Uh-huh. I don't think so.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I can't care to win you back if you were never here and in terms of respect, you get what you give.

So, you're a rabbi, a leader, but rather than:

* treating people the way you'd like to be treated

* showing respect to a fellow Jew

* behaving with respect to others as Talmud and Torah command

You're fine with casting insults at me, and even saying now, I'm not a Jew and was never authentically Jewish to begin!

Rabbi, I respect you. I hope you will come to love and trust Y'shua. I would never say to my dog some of the hurtful things you've said to me as your fellow Jew.

 

[rosends]

I am utterly aware that kings were anointed. I'm aware of oil used in anointing, etc. I'm aware that Daniel 9 uses a word meaning Messiah and not King and that you continue to refer me to a Lubavitch site (Lubavitchers feel free to lie to win converts, against the Decalogue regarding false witness). I'm aware that NOW you are parsing the prophecy to say Agrippa was one of the anointed kings but that the rest of the awesome prophecy, the restoration and judgment of Israel and the end of human sin has nothing to do with an "Anointed King". Uh-huh. I don't think so.

You complain about the site. What site? I have recently refered to jewsforjudaism.org. Are you saying that Rabbi Kravitz is Lubavitch? I also cited the drazin.com site. Is that site "Lubavitch?" Maybe I referenced the biblical text on the Chabad.org site. Do you have a problem with the Judaica Press text which is on the site? Do you have any evidence other than your silly accusations against the people who coded the website? Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound when you make the accusation about "winnng converts" when the kiruv movement of Chabad is not designed to get converts? You want to keep thinking that the words of Daniel have to fit how you understand them. When I show you that you are wrong, you find something else to complain about. If you read all what I presented, you would read about the "prophecy" as a whole. If you understood Judaism, you would see that the entire endeavor is not useful because you would understand who Daniel was and what his role was.

 

[rosends]

So, you're a rabbi, a leader, but rather than:

* treating people the way you'd like to be treated

* showing respect to a fellow Jew

* behaving with respect to others as Talmud and Torah command

You're fine with casting insults at me, and even saying now, I'm not a Jew and was never authentically Jewish to begin!

Rabbi, I respect you. I hope you will come to love and trust Y'shua. I would never say to my dog some of the hurtful things you've said to me as your fellow Jew.

Actually, I'm (among other things) a teacher who demands that people pay attention and consider the answers before asking again. I'm a rabbi who expects that people respect the Jewish traditions. I'm a Jew who is informed about things that you clearly aren't.

If you don't like being told you are wrong, stop being wrong. If you want respect, give respect. If you want to hold me accountable to the Torah and Talmud, first learn them. I don't know if you were ever a Jew so why should I treat you as a Jew based on your statements? You think that this is an insult? Fine. Be insulted. That's on you.

 

[BilliardsBall]

You complain about the site. What site? I have recently refered to jewsforjudaism.org. Are you saying that Rabbi Kravitz is Lubavitch? I also cited the drazin.com site. Is that site "Lubavitch?" Maybe I referenced the biblical text on the Chabad.org site. Do you have a problem with the Judaica Press text which is on the site? Do you have any evidence other than your silly accusations against the people who coded the website? Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound when you make the accusation about "winnng converts" when the kiruv movement of Chabad is not designed to get converts? You want to keep thinking that the words of Daniel have to fit how you understand them. When I show you that you are wrong, you find something else to complain about. If you read all what I presented, you would read about the "prophecy" as a whole. If you understood Judaism, you would see that the entire endeavor is not useful because you would understand who Daniel was and what his role was.

Interesting. You deflect the charge that Lubavitch proselytizers lie to further their agenda (mostly to ensnare recent Messianic converts, weak in God's Word, to become ultra-Orthodox) to a discussion of the hidden writers of the site.

"I don't understand Daniel and his role," is pure nonsense. King Agrippa II never ended human sin or fully judged Israel, etc.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Actually, I'm (among other things) a teacher who demands that people pay attention and consider the answers before asking again. I'm a rabbi who expects that people respect the Jewish traditions. I'm a Jew who is informed about things that you clearly aren't.

If you don't like being told you are wrong, stop being wrong. If you want respect, give respect. If you want to hold me accountable to the Torah and Talmud, first learn them. I don't know if you were ever a Jew so why should I treat you as a Jew based on your statements? You think that this is an insult? Fine. Be insulted. That's on you.

Life and Torah/Talmud aren't always a Hebrew contest, rabbi. What I know is less important than whom I know. I know Him who made the universe.

 

[rosends]

Interesting. You deflect the charge that Lubavitch proselytizers lie to further their agenda (mostly to ensnare recent Messianic converts, weak in God's Word, to become ultra-Orthodox) to a discussion of the hidden writers of the site.

"I don't understand Daniel and his role," is pure nonsense. King Agrippa II never ended human sin or fully judged Israel, etc.

You dodge a simple question to contextualize your accusation. I guess you would rather hit and run with unsubstantiated claims. So be it.

And no, you don;t understand Daniel and his role. And you certainly don;t understand what a messiah is.

 

[rosends]

Life and Torah/Talmud aren't always a Hebrew contest, rabbi. What I know is less important than whom I know. I know Him who made the universe.

OK, as long as we both agree that you don't know things. That works for me.

 

[BilliardsBall]

You dodge a simple question to contextualize your accusation. I guess you would rather hit and run with unsubstantiated claims. So be it.

And no, you don;t understand Daniel and his role. And you certainly don;t understand what a messiah is.

While you or I might not understand what a Messiah fully is, we can certainly understand what a Messiah does or will do. When King Agrippa II makes an end of human sin and restores Israel to "Messianic glory" you can tell us all he fulfills Daniel 9.

Likewise, I may not know everything about our prophet Daniel, but I can read his words and understand them in Daniel 9.

 

[BilliardsBall]

OK, as long as we both agree that you don't know things. That works for me.

Of course it works for you. Because we Jews have emphasized knowledge (and you, Hebrew knowledge) above other important precepts.

I don't play those games anymore. If I did, when you "refute" the teachings of the New Testament, I would go into the Greek. I have a feeling based on my commitment to Y'shua that I excel in Greek above your studies.

Rabbi, do you know the expression the Gentiles use, "It's not what you know, but rather who you know"? I know Y'shua the Messiah. I don't have a relationship with Agrippa II, and neither do you.

 

[Tumah]

Rabbi, do you know the expression the Gentiles use, "It's not what you know, but rather who you know"? I know Y'shua the Messiah. I don't have a relationship with Agrippa II, and neither do you.

So basically, you don't know what the Torah actually says, but you know Jesus, so whatever the Torah says is secondary to that.

Isn't there some verse in Mark about "you have let go of the commandment of G-d and hold to the whisperings of your mind."?

 

[rosends]

While you or I might not understand what a Messiah fully is, we can certainly understand what a Messiah does or will do. When King Agrippa II makes an end of human sin and restores Israel to "Messianic glory" you can tell us all he fulfills Daniel 9.

Even just this statement shows that you don't understand what a Messiah is. You know that king David was a messiah, right? And he didn't make an end of human sin, did he?

Likewise, I may not know everything about our prophet Daniel, but I can read his words and understand them in Daniel 9.

Arguable at best.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Rosends, how do you understand Micah 5:1,2?

JSB, 'And you, O Bethlehem of Ephrath,
Least among the clans of Judah,
From you one shall come forth
To rule Israel for Me -
One whose origin is from of old,
From ancient times.
Truly, He will leave them [helpless]
Until she who is to bear has borne;
Then the countrymen
Shall return to the children of Israel.

The marginal notes read as follows: (v.2)Traditional Jewish interpretations of this v. tend to focus on comparisons between the birth pangs of a woman and the hardship of Israel prior to the coming of the Messiah. See the following text: "Rab said: The son of David will not come until the [Roman] power enfolds Israel for nine months, as it is written, Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. 'Ulla said: Let him [The Messiah] come, but let me not see him. Rabbah said likewise: Let him come, but let me not see him.....Abaye enquired of Rabbah: 'What is your reason [for not wishing to see him]? Shall we say, because of the birth pangs [preceding the advent] of the Messiah?' But it has been taught, R. Eleazar's disciples asked him: 'What must a man do to be spared the pangs of the Messiah? [He answered] 'Let him engage in study and benevolence; and you Master do both.'"

Is this your approach, Rosends? To say, 'Let me not see him'?

 

[rosends]

Rosends, how do you understand Micah 5:1,2?

JSB, 'And you, O Bethlehem of Ephrath,
Least among the clans of Judah,
From you one shall come forth
To rule Israel for Me -
One whose origin is from of old,
From ancient times.
Truly, He will leave them [helpless]
Until she who is to bear has borne;
Then the countrymen
Shall return to the children of Israel.

The marginal notes read as follows: (v.2)Traditional Jewish interpretations of this v. tend to focus on comparisons between the birth pangs of a woman and the hardship of Israel prior to the coming of the Messiah. See the following text: "Rab said: The son of David will not come until the [Roman] power enfolds Israel for nine months, as it is written, Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. 'Ulla said: Let him [The Messiah] come, but let me not see him. Rabbah said likewise: Let him come, but let me not see him.....Abaye enquired of Rabbah: 'What is your reason [for not wishing to see him]? Shall we say, because of the birth pangs [preceding the advent] of the Messiah?' But it has been taught, R. Eleazar's disciples asked him: 'What must a man do to be spared the pangs of the Messiah? [He answered] 'Let him engage in study and benevolence; and you Master do both.'"

Is this your approach, Rosends? To say, 'Let me not see him'?

some resources
http://drazin.com/?9._The_King_Messiah (scroll down to the section on Micah 5)
http://thejewishhome.org/counter/Micah5_1.pdf
http://messiahtruth.yuku.com/reply/45631/Micah-52-and-the-jerusalem-talmud#reply-45631
As for the segment referenced in Sanhedrin 98b, the discussion there is about chevlei Mashiach, the travail before the arrival of the messiah, a time of hardship. The talmud cites the micah line (not one that has anything to do with where the messiah will be born) to explain the suffering prior to the redemption. God will surrender his people to the enemies for 9 months, then the tribe of Judah will arise and join the rest of the tribes to make a unified people. The great rabbis then quoted seak of how they hope the messiah will come but they don't look forward to having to endure the travails preceding the arrival. They don't want to suffer as prophesied (Rav Yosef says he would be ok with enduring the suffering). The section you cite cuts the talmudic discussion off. Rabbah replies that he is afraid that he will have a single sin which will invalidate any protection his learning and kindness might have afforded him. The talmud then provides 2 sources for the idea that a single sin ends the protection.

So you ask me what my approach is? I would like to say that I would try to follow Rav Yosef. To merit seeing the messiah come, I would hope that I could endure the suffering. But I also know that I am no where even a fraction of the greatness of Ulla and Rabbah and if they fear what will happen and how it will affect them, I can only conclude that it would be unbearable for just a regular guy like me.

Rashi, on the verse points out "our Sages state that from here we deduce that the son of David will not come until the wicked kingdom spreads over the entire world for nine months (Yoma 10b, Sanh. 98b)."

Which sort of rules out a certain someone...