Am I saved if I have a different biblical interpretation of the oneness of God?

[Andrew Reil]

I forgot to say welcome!

Thanks!

 

[Andrew Reil]

Being atheist I have no comment on being saved by which of the thousands of branches of christianity you follow, i am content with the really of the 1st law of thermodynamics.

However what i can say is welcome to RF. Sit back, relax, enjoy the banter and the free cake

View attachment 47767

Consider it virtually and thankfully enjoyed.
Thank-you for your welcoming gesture.

 

[Andrew Reil]

Nobody can know who is saved and who not. I find it impertinent of some Christians try to lay down the law about the conditions required. Apart from anything else it seems to me monstrous to believe that those who have been brought up in other religions cannot be saved.

I understand your feelings, but I still want to understand the Christians who fell this way.

 

[Andrew Reil]

That's a good question and the answer may vary person to person as you have noted.

Ultimately, IMV, it is God who will be the determinant and not man.

My sister was a member of the the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for decades and I believe during that time she was, indeed, saved. However, today she would be classified as non-denominational Christian who has rejected the teachings of Joseph Smith and is still "saved".

What happens in your teachings to the person who rejects the teachings of Joseph Smith?



In my studies, I believe that person is still saved. It is not what you know but who you know--Jesus!

My understanding of the doctrine taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that everyone will one day know God and the truth, no more faith or guessing. Everyone will have the opportunity to accept salvation by Jesus Christ or reject it. If they accept it they will go to heaven. If they reject it they will not. Everyone vacillates and negotiates our own path, and I am thankful that the Lord has been patient with my vacillations. Most likely your sister will continue to choose Jesus Christ and will therefore be saved.

 

[Andrew Reil]

It's an odd religion that bases your eternal state upon what you think.

I understand your feelings. I still want to understand those who feel that way.

 

[Andrew Reil]

What does being "saved" mean, really? Does it mean have you met the sufficient criteria to be accepted into the group? Have you performed the prescribed rituals and taking the necessary vows in order to have the checkbox marked next to your name in the membership roster for heaven? Are you a valid member of Club Jesus, or an outsider?

I think that most Christians tend to think of salvation in terms like that. It's a positional, technicality that means you are either embraced by God's love, or spit out the other end if you don't measure up or met the basic requirements for admission into paradise. I find that way of thinking about it to be rather self-serving and ego-facing.

If you consider the metaphor of "saved" or "salvation" more in terms of something much more tangible, such as the end of suffering in your life, then it has more meaning, as well as actual value. In that case, very few are actually "saved". Throngs of believers exiting the church doors, have little to know actual experience of the Divine in their lives. Is simply believing somethings to be true then, the meaning of salvation or being "saved"?

When you consider that Jesus himself extolled how that a Roman Centurion, a pagan, had greater faith than anyone he'd seen in all of Israel, right there you can see that what most Christians ideas of what "saved" means, dependent upon correct beliefs and practices, is to say the least suspect.

Although I believe the social aspect is likely included, I am interested in the "going to heaven" aspect of being saved, which I believe many Christians also believe.

I understand your frustration. I also am interested in understanding Christians who believe I am not saved.

 

[Andrew Reil]

Hi Monk,
actually, people get punished for what they do.
This is my view of Christian doctrine, at least.
But if they want to enter heaven, this is only possible with a free ticket from Jesus, and this in turn is only available on faith.
So, you're 50% right, I'd say.

Thomas I also believe that salvation is only grant

It comes down to believing in God's Christ and so keeping one's name in the book of life.
The reason people will perish is their name not being found in the book of life, Revelation 20:15, reference the judgement Revelation 20:11-15. Two of the promises being those who overcome will be sons of God, Revelation 21:7 and not have their name removed from the book of life, Revelation 3:5. And one overcomes by being born of God, 1 John 5:4-5. And that is by believing in God's Christ, 1 John 5:1 and 2 John 1:9.
In any case it is God who does the saving and does the keeping on His terms.

I think this is touching on my question maybe. Do you believe that my believing Jesus Christ, accepting Him as Lord, and my personal Savior qualifies as "believing in God's Christ"? Especially if I believe that they are two separate beings? And also that I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

I am not trying to argue or judge you on your opinion or answer, I am genuinely trying to understand majority Christian doctrine.

 

[Andrew Reil]

The key to enduring is love, 1 Corinthians 13:7, ". . . endureth all things." And 1 John 4:7-8, "Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." And 1 John 5:1; 1 John 5:9-13.

Thank-you. I believe those scriptures as well.

 

[Andrew Reil]

I'm a trinitarian and have the same question.

Do you mean you are not yet familiar with the reason why a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not saved despite confessing Jesus?

 

[Andrew Reil]

Joh 14:9 Yeshua said to him, “Have I been with you such a long time, and do you not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father. How do you say, ‘Show us the Father?’

Zec 14:1 Behold,H2009 the dayH3117 of the LORDH3068 cometh,H935 and thy spoilH7998 shall be dividedH2505 in the midstH7130 of thee.

H3068
יהוה
yehôvâh
yeh-ho-vaw'

Zec 14:4 His feet will stand in that day on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in two, from east to west, making a very great valley. Half of the mountain will move toward the north, and half of it toward the south.


Isa 44:6 This is what the LORD, the King of Israel,and his Redeemer, the LORD of Hosts, says:“I am the first, and I am the last;and besides me there is no God.

Joh 18:4 Yeshua, who knew everything that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, "Whom do you want?" "Yeshua from Natzeret," they answered. He said to them, "I AM." Also standing with them was Y'hudah, the one who was betraying him.
Joh 18:6 When he said, "I AM," they went back ward from him and fell to the ground.

Rev 1:8 "I am the Alef and the Tav," says the Lord God, "Who is and Who was and Who is to come, the Almighty."
Rev 22:13 I am the Alef and the Tav, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.


"Let him who thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall" ?

I think your point is that the trinity is a correct doctrine, or that my belief that Jesus Christ and His Father are two separate people is an incorrect interpretation of scripture.

If that is true, then you might be able to answer my question.

If I still worship Jesus Christ and confess Him as my personal Savior, but interpret the scriptures differently and believe in three separate people in the Godhead that are one in purpose (John 17:21), does that nullify my belief in the true God?

 

[Andrew Reil]

Romans 11, perhaps ?

Interesting thank-you.

In case you're interested, I believe that in verses 16-24 where Paul talks about the branches of the olive tree, that he's quoting the book of Zenos (Kanas?) that used to be part of the old testament. The entire allegory, I believe, is quoted by an ancient American prophet in the Book of Mormon citing the old testament that he had a copy of (before this book was removed): Jacob 5

 

[Andrew Reil]

Mostly this is fallout from the 19th century when (USA) Christians began to define Christianity from reading the Bible in English. In those days the Mormons left the other Christians to live in isolation. Of them many stories were told, but the Mormons declared the other churches to be following a confused version of the gospel. Since that time the LDS (no longer Mormons) have remained a scary story that Christians tell to their children.

The theological side is more complicated.

Yes I am familiar with the animosity.

It is the theological side that I am interested in learning.

 

[37818]

Exo 20:6 and showing loving kindness to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Deu 5:10 and showing loving kindness to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Joh 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.
1Jn 2:4 One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him.

As a Christian there are the commandments under the Law, Galatians 2:21 and the new commandments God gave Christ, 1 John 3:23.

 

[37818]

Thomas I also believe that salvation is only grant

I think this is touching on my question maybe. Do you believe that my believing Jesus Christ, accepting Him as Lord, and my personal Savior qualifies as "believing in God's Christ"? Especially if I believe that they are two separate beings? And also that I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

I am not trying to argue or judge you on your opinion or answer, I am genuinely trying to understand majority Christian doctrine.

Which Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 11:3-4? In deed God the Father and Jesus Christ are distinct Persons. But they are the one and the same God. John 14:6; 1 Timothy 2:5-6; 1 John 5:9-13; 2 John 1:9.

 

[roberto]

As a Christian there are the commandments under the Law, Galatians 2:21 and the new commandments God gave Christ, 1 John 3:23.

Joh 8:28 Yeshua therefore said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and I do nothing of myself, but as my Father taught me, I say these things.

Mal 3:6 “For I, the LORD, don’t change;............................. therefore you, sons of Jacob, are not consumed.

 

[roberto]

I think your point is that the trinity is a correct doctrine, or that my belief that Jesus Christ and His Father are two separate people is an incorrect interpretation of scripture.

If that is true, then you might be able to answer my question.

If I still worship Jesus Christ and confess Him as my personal Savior, but interpret the scriptures differently and believe in three separate people in the Godhead that are one in purpose (John 17:21), does that nullify my belief in the true God?

Christians will not be able to enter the City coming down from heaven.

 

[roberto]

Interesting thank-you.

In case you're interested, I believe that in verses 16-24 where Paul talks about the branches of the olive tree, that he's quoting the book of Zenos (Kanas?) that used to be part of the old testament. The entire allegory, I believe, is quoted by an ancient American prophet in the Book of Mormon citing the old testament that he had a copy of (before this book was removed): Jacob 5

Andrew, I have no idea where Shaul got his ideas from, I only read the Bible. King James or Complete Jewish Bible.

 

[roberto]

Yes... knowing "about" someone isn't the same as having a "relationship" and "knowing" the person

So true.

 

[37818]

Joh 8:28 Yeshua therefore said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and I do nothing of myself, but as my Father taught me, I say these things.

Mal 3:6 “For I, the LORD, don’t change;............................. therefore you, sons of Jacob, are not consumed.

God never changed. But gave the New Covenant as He promised, Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:9-13.

 

[nPeace]

I want to understand why Christians do not think I'm saved. I don't want to argue with them. I genuinely want to understand their rationale.

Here's why it's a question: I recognize that there are many debates among Christians on interpretations of the Bible, yet my understanding is that a Baptist will still admit that a Presbyterian is saved because he or she has accepted Jesus as their personal Savior. But they will not accept that I, as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who accepts Jesus as my personal Savior, is saved. Why?

I have tried to ask this question many times, and except for once with a person I was able to convince that I do not want to argue, it has always quickly turned into why they believe Joseph Smith was an evil deceiver, not answering my question.

The one person who did answer me explained that because I do not believe in the Trinity, that even though I say the name "Jesus Christ", that I do not believe in the REAL Jesus Christ. That what I believe is a fictional idea that is not real, and that I have merely attributed the name "Jesus Christ" to that fictional idea. The REAL Jesus Christ that I should be accepting as my Savior is in the Trinity.

My question therefore is, if I interpret John 17:21 that "one" in the way that the followers of Jesus can be aligned perfectly with Him, the same way that Jesus Christ is already perfectly aligned with His Father, than does that interpretation nullify me?

Why do other disagreements over scriptural interpretation not nullify other Christian's beliefs?

And if a person who is initially unfamiliar with Christianity, then learns about it from a Christian missionary, and confesses Jesus, and then dies from an accident, and still harbors mistaken beliefs about God because he has not yet been taught fully by the missionaries, is he saved?

Your illumination on the topic would be appreciated.

I can't say who personally is saved, or who personally won't be, since Jesus said, it is those that endure to the end, who will be saved - Matthew 24:13.

However, the door is still opened for many to be saved, and we do at times have a change of heart, and understanding, and find the path to life. 2 peter 3:9
Jesus said, there are only two roads - Matthew 7:13, 14.
God has made it possible for us to find that road, and be saved - 1 Timothy 2:4.

So, based on the fact that we have time to gain an accurate knowledge of the truth, and endure on the narrow road to life, there are many who are still on the broad road to destruction, who can get off of it, and follow the narrow road to life, and be saved.

Some people think the the broad road to destruction are only filled with Atheists, skeptics, and non-Christian religious people, but from what Jesus said at Matthew 7:21-23, this is not the case.
So, one can be following a "Christian" religion, and still be on the broad road to destruction.

Evidently, from what we read in the scriptures, many of these will not be saved, simply because while they believe they belong to Christ, and believe Jesus is their lord, that is not the case, and they will lose their lives for that.

Those who die in ignorance, are not writen off, simply because they sincerely were misled (they get another opportunity - Acts 24:15), but some ignorant ones are destroyed, because though ignorant, it was wilful ignorance, due to not wanting to submit to following the commands of Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8, 9.

Romans 10:15-17 shows how persons are being saved.