Am I the body?

[HonestJoe]

Well... what say you? What are you? What defines "you" and "me" as "you" and "me"?

Well it is somewhat contextual for a start. The "you" I'm communicating with is different to the "you" your parents know, different to the "you" your friends and colleagues know and different to the "you" that pathologist dissects after you die.

In another way though, all of those different types of "you" are just parts that make-up the whole that is actually "you". Even if the out of body experiences you mention were actually anything more than products of your brain, they would still be part of "you" leaving another part of "you" and then returning to add that "experience" to the overall whole.

The Ship of Theseus thought experiment is probably relevant too. After all, every single cell in your body will have died and been replaced countless times throughout your life, so is the "you" at your birth even the same "you" today?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

So here is a question wrt the "I" the ego that self identifies with the physical body, which in my case is named Ben.

When Ben goes to sleep and dreams he is driving a car someplace, is not the ego self inactive, ie., only brain theta waves present, with no beta or alpha brain waves present.

For those not familiar. Brainwaves Explained – Alpha, Beta, Delta & Theta – What these brainwaves mean... - Clarke Bioscience

 

[Twilight Hue]

Am "I" the mortal body that people recognize as "me". Or am "I" instead possessing a sack of flesh and bone, which is separate from "me" ?

If you never had an out of body experience(s), then perhaps this question seems silly. But even if you have not had out of body experiences, I reckon you can wrap your head around the question anyways... you guys are smart.

I have had out of body experiences over the years. Used to chase them. Gonna pick up the chase again one day, but I've taken a couple years off to recover presently.

My point is, I know (imo) that I am not the body. Do I have physicality truly, or is it an illusion? I am not sure, but I do know that I (and others) have the capacity to overcome and exceed our physical nature and still be "I".

What am "I"? I suspect many have intuitively felt or experienced that they are not the body, hence the prevalence of a belief in a "soul" in most religions.

Well... what say you? What are you? What defines "you" and "me" as "you" and "me"?

Suffice to say, the one called "me" isn't in charge.

 

[SeekingBalance]

Suffice to say, the one called "me" isn't in charge.

Hey Twilight,

Agreed but there are times when that "me" might convince you otherwise. You can watch it fall apart in real time so it's interesting to some extent. Sometimes that "me" wins a battle or two though.

I hope all is well.

 

[PearlSeeker]

I've always had a special place of hate in my heart for that guy. Dude has it completely backwards.

Esitis, ergo sum - you are, therefore I am. There is no "I" without an environment and all the interdependent relationships we have to non-human (and human) others. That guy's perspective is very symptomatic of the egocentric, individualistic orientation of Western philosophy. As opposed to more ecocentric, collectivistic orientations of indigenous religions and also of Eastern philosophy. It was an Eastern philosopher that introduced me to the significantly more sagacous "estis, ergo sum."

There is no "I" without "other."

Aren't you generalizing too much? In Eastern philosophy there is for example Advaita Vedanta and according to it only Brahman is real - the world is maya (illusion). In Western philosophy there is Martin Buber's dialogic principle (I-Thou).

 

[Secret Chief]

In my true nature, I am not the body; I am not the mind. I don't see a distinction between you and me

What concerns me is that from this non-dual perspective, I'm actually wearing your Bermuda shorts.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

In my true nature, I am not the body; I am not the mind. I don't see a distinction between you and me.

Who is the I that is saying "I am not the body; I am not the mind. I don't see a distinction between you and me."?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Who is the I that is saying "I am not the body; I am not the mind. I don't see a distinction between you and me."?

Who is asking?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Who is asking?

Me, Ben!

 

[PearlSeeker]

Who is the I that is saying "I am not the body; I am not the mind. I don't see a distinction between you and me."?

Everything arising spontaneously without a doer?

 

[McBell]

I am I
You are You

Body and brain are symbiotic, one is useless without the other

Seems to me this is it in a nutshell.
You are your body.
However, you are not just your body.
You are your mind.
However, you are not just your mind.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Everything arising spontaneously without a doer?

How does this "Everything arising spontaneously without a doer" say/convey to the questioner "I am not the body; I am not the mind. I don't see a distinction between you and me."?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Am "I" the mortal body that people recognize as "me". Or am "I" instead possessing a sack of flesh and bone, which is separate from "me" ?

If you never had an out of body experience(s), then perhaps this question seems silly. But even if you have not had out of body experiences, I reckon you can wrap your head around the question anyways... you guys are smart.

I have had out of body experiences over the years. Used to chase them. Gonna pick up the chase again one day, but I've taken a couple years off to recover presently.

My point is, I know (imo) that I am not the body. Do I have physicality truly, or is it an illusion? I am not sure, but I do know that I (and others) have the capacity to overcome and exceed our physical nature and still be "I".

What am "I"? I suspect many have intuitively felt or experienced that they are not the body, hence the prevalence of a belief in a "soul" in most religions.

Well... what say you? What are you? What defines "you" and "me" as "you" and "me"?

I believe we are our bodies but we also exist beyond our bodies.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Hey Twilight,

Agreed but there are times when that "me" might convince you otherwise. You can watch it fall apart in real time so it's interesting to some extent. Sometimes that "me" wins a battle or two though.

I hope all is well.

Well let's just say we can 'steer' the ship, but we don't determine the destination or select one's crew.

 

[Quintessence]

Aren't you generalizing too much? In Eastern philosophy there is for example Advaita Vedanta and according to it only Brahman is real - the world is maya (illusion). In Western philosophy there is Martin Buber's dialogic principle (I-Thou).

Yes, it's a generalization. From what I've studied - and this is certainly what all the social sciences professors I had in college taught - it's still true on the whole that Western cultures lean individualist while Eastern cultures lean collectivist. There's obviously going to be exceptions within each region, that almost goes without saying.

 

[PearlSeeker]

How does this "Everything arising spontaneously without a doer" say/convey to the questioner "I am not the body; I am not the mind. I don't see a distinction between you and me."?

I don't know. Ask an Advaitin.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I don't know. Ask an Advaitin.

Unity is unity, there is nothing separate from unity to converse with. However if a seeker asks a question of it, there may be a response, however the apparent duality is an illusion due to the seeker imagining they are separate from it.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Yes, it's a generalization. From what I've studied - and this is certainly what all the social sciences professors I had in college taught - it's still true on the whole that Western cultures lean individualist while Eastern cultures lean collectivist. There's obviously going to be exceptions within each region, that almost goes without saying.

I agree about cultures. Interesting that the most collectivist ideology (communism) comes from West (Europe).

 

[SeekingBalance]

Well let's just say we can 'steer' the ship, but we don't determine the destination or select one's crew.

Hah, I think someone almost genetically equivalent to me with some filtered and poorly maintained record of my memories thinks they are me and that is probably accurate.

I hope all is well.

 

[SeekingBalance]

When is a VW Beetle still a VW Beetle? Does it become something else when I switch the ICE Boxer engine for an electric one? Does it become something else if I change the form to look more like a Golf?

I don't believe in a "soul", but if I could "upload" my mind onto a computer, would I still be the same "I"?
Would you still be the same person if you lost all your memories? What can you take away or replace so that you still recognize yourself?
Answer that question, and you'll know more about yourself.

Hi Heyo,

The Ship of Theseus explores the concept of identity over time and in your example, it has become a VW Beetle. (Why not a Kia Soul?) There is an interesting series on Amazon Prime called Upload where you can upload your consciousness and the show explores some of the interesting side effects. (I've been told it's like Black Mirror for boring people but I am finding it quite amusing.)

If everything I know or see is the result of neurological chemicals and electrical activity then I live in a simulation. The outer layers of me that you might call real are there to interpret and take actions as the "simulated me" desires. I don't have direct access to light but when I step into the sun I can feel the sensation and simulate it. It's easy though to slip into the idea that the simulation is reality. Modern headsets like the Oculus 3 are making it easier though to see how quickly your brain slips into new realities.

Some psychedelics can have similar perspective-bending revelations that kind of let the curtain slip on what's going on but I have found meditation to be very effective.

I hope all is well.