"American Ethnocentrism" is still a problem in the U.S

[Epic Beard Man]

Only when they disagree with you. Carry on Beard Man! I say America as well PC be damned.

It's very childish....That is almost childish as "hey you wrote an entire paragraph but you misspelled this word." Seriously. If people are responding then quite obviously people know what I'm talking about.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Oh yeah, the post you so willfully chose to ignore. Then responded to with a comment about racism.
Which I replied; racism is only an issue for people that choose to make it (4)one and provide you with some definitions of what racism actually is vs. prejudice that you continuously choose to ignore. Yet, make more faulty assumptions that I don’t know what your OP is about.

It is your opinion that race is still an issue in this country(5). It is not an issue for me, nor is it an issue for many Americans (1). Kelly’s response was about someone writing a news article claiming Santa should be a penguin so both white and black kids can celebrate it without white kids being embarrassed, allowing both ( and others) to celebrate Christmas without the social stigma that may be attached to it (2). Most people do not give a flying flip what color people think Santa, the fictional character is unless they decide to look up the history of St. Nicholas which is traditionally tied to Christianity (3), yet anyone can celebrate the spirit of Christmas without being religious. It doesn’t matter what color the fictional character Santa Claus is or what color people think Santa Claus should be.

• If people want to believe Santa is white then good for them.
• If people want to believe Santa is black then good for them.
• If people want to believe Santa is Asian then good for them.
• If people want to believe Santa is Hispanic or Latino then good for them.
• If people want to believe Santa is green and purple and flies around in a UFO then good for them.

Race is an issue and will be when you live in a society with different ethnicities. If someone’s child goes missing people need to know their defining characteristics and race is one of them. If someone wants to apply for ACA (healthcare), then they need to know more about the defining characteristics of that person and these things are limited to race. Race is also used to gather and collect demographic information and statistics. You cannot simply disregard “race” because you think it shouldn’t be an issue. You also claim that these are issues that people should talk about which people have for the past week or two and this is now considered old news, and is water under the bridge(6).

Responding to (1)

Define "many Americans" wait, wait...define "many North Americans most specifically, United States Americans." Just because racism is not a problem for you, in which only you are 1 of the 313.9 million people in this country, does not mean its a problem for others.

Responding to (2)

Kelley's response was not only incorrect, but inflammatory to say the least. For one, in not taking the high road she decided to engage the author in the debauchery of defining Santa for kids. She said that "Santa is white" and that Jesus is also "white." She made inaccurate statements and then tried to back peddle and claim that she was "joking." If in fact what Kelley said wasn't wrong why the need to apologize? She clearly was wrong:

A) Making the claim that the fictional character Santa is white. If she is going to argue about the ethnicity of Santa perhaps that was the wrong segment to do so.

B) She made a statement to addressing children. "Don't worry kids, Santa is white." What message does that send to an already racially conscious society? Why is she teaching kids on Fox news about the importance of Santa's ethnicity? If you cannot see how wrong that is on all accounts then I would say you are willfully ignorant.

C) She claiming Jesus as white is also historically inaccurate. For one, Jesus did not historically hail from the Caucasus mountains nor was the region that he lived in were a people of fair skin as in today's USA Caucasian population.

D) She apologized. Again, if she was not wrong why should she apologize? Because Fox made her? Because of political correctness? I would think any person who stood by their views would just merely openly admit that "hey I was wrong to make the claims that I did, I'm sorry if that was offensive" then move on. No, she claimed that her statement was a joke.

Regarding (3) St. Nick and Santa Claus are two different historical figures.


Regarding (4)

If racism is only a problem to those who chose to make it then you can argue that homosexuality is only a problem to those who make it.[ In this case conservative Christians chose to make homosexuality a problem and homosexuals chose to have a problem with those who have a problem with their sexuality. Do you want to go there with that kind of logic?


Regarding (5)

According to LuisDantas he said:

"American Ethnocentrism is not "still" a problem. It has been a growing and disturbing trend since the 1980s at least."

So it is not Just my opinion, there are others who share my concern as well.

Regarding (6)

The issue with race and the non-discussion of it is not "water under the bridge" and this forum is not the end all to the issues that plague people. Just because the people of this forum do not talk about it doesn't mean the problem does not exist. I'm sure if I went on blackplanet.com the subject of racism in the United States will be a topic at the forefront. Usually the dynamics of a forum's environment determines the importance of certain social subjects. This is "religiousforums" so I'm sure racism is not necessarily the forefront of the many discussions that goes on here.

My friend you have a lot to learn about how things operate, because I'm merely making this thread with the intent to discuss something that continues to be problematic in the United States. Allow me to take those rosy tinted glasses off for you.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Just because someone didn't accept something as legitimate doesn't mean they didn't listen. Ever heard of the tale of the boy who cried wolf? Some people have this undue sense of entitlement, and will exaggerate things so that they can milk it dry. The card is a beloved crutch. Some cling to victim status so that they can be coddled and carried the whole way.

Again, I beg to differ.

 

[Father Heathen]

Oh, you mean like...

"Be a man."

"A woman's place is in the home."

My cousin is dating a black man (said quietly), but he's a good black man."

Yes, like that.

As opposed to hearing people of color talking about their experience? Or is it only genuine when minorities aren't getting too uppity when discussing their experience?

What a peculiar non sequitur.

 

[Father Heathen]

Again, I beg to differ.

o i c, kk

 

[Slapstick]

People often ask "why can't people get over race?"

Simple...

Because in the United States people don't want to....

It seems like the only person that can’t get over race is you Epic_Beard_Man. You are the very instigator of the topic you created and have a bad case of foot-in-the-mouth. :foot:

I will give you a real world example of racism and how it affects everyone. Not just any one group of people.

First all I am white and American - Nice to you meet you. My ancestors (family) came from Germany and Sweden. I had a nice talk today with family and friends and one of them shared some of her experiences in Nazi Germany where she lived while it was ruled by Adolf Hitler. The Nazi military would patrol around the streets. As a young girl she would her gun fire outside all the time. As you know or may not, if people did not join the Nazi regime then they would be killed, end of story. That is racism. They followed racial theories that they developed to create a master race. They would go from house to house looking for young girls. When they went to her house she would have to hide from them under the couch cushions while her brothers would sit on top of her and act as normal and casual as possible to flatten out the cushions so the Nazi soldiers wouldn’t notice she was under them. Her brother laughed and a Nazi soldier grabbed him by the chin and asked him what is funny. They would take young girls out of their houses away from their parents (family) to Germanize them. She now lives in America. The entire Nazi youth was indoctrinated under the Nazi regime as well. People had no choice, no options, but to surrender and be part of a racist totalitarian regime or be executed.

Your 3rd grade squabble over the color of Santa and some redneck’s blabberings pale in comparison as to what racism actually is and is starting to become rather comical. I honestly cannot believe you are still trying to debate this.

My friend you have a lot to learn about how things operate, because I'm merely making this thread with the intent to discuss something that continues to be problematic in the United States. Allow me to take those rosy tinted glasses off for you.

If you didn’t want to debate this and just wanted to voice an opinion then you shouldn’t have placed it in the general debates section. A more suitable place for it would be in the general discussion area.I'm sure you would get a lot more sympathy votes there.

 

[Revoltingest]

Ethnocentrism news....
WWE Pits 'Good' Black Santa vs. 'Bad' White Santa | Truth Revolt

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Yes, like that.



What a peculiar non sequitur.

It's a response to somebody who claims minorities "play the race card" too often.

 

[YmirGF]

It's a response to somebody who claims minorities "play the race card" too often.

The weird part is that I don't personally see so-called "minorities" playing the race card all that much. I do see a lot of white people playing the race card though supposedly on behalf of those downtrodden folks crushed by so-called white privilege.

What puzzled me about this entire conversation is that Americans are more ethnocentric than other groups. That is something I am doubtful about. For example, here in LotusLand, many will tell you that people who live in Toronto, Canada see themselves as being at the centre of the universe. Meanwhile those of us on the West Coast don't actually believe there is any intelligent life beyond the Rockies.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

The weird part is that I don't personally see so-called "minorities" playing the race card all that much. I do see a lot of white people playing the race card though supposedly on behalf of those downtrodden folks crushed by so-called white privilege.

Yeah, I've heard that before. Because I'm white, and I repeat what I hear from people of color who are ignored by people of privilege, I'm supposedly playing the race card or exacerbating "white guilt". That's fine. I'm more concerned that people of color are heard than trying to stop other whites from rolling their eyes.

What puzzled me about this entire conversation is that Americans are more ethnocentric than other groups. That is something I am doubtful about. For example, here in LotusLand, many will tell you that people who live in Toronto, Canada see themselves as being at the centre of the universe. Meanwhile those of us on the West Coast don't actually believe there is any intelligent life beyond the Rockies.

LOL sounds like Illinois. Chicagoans have no idea that people live south of Peoria - or at least we southern Illinois folks don't matter in state politics. While many folks in southern Illinois sees Chicagoans as all practicing dirty mob politics and are corrupt Stalinists to the core.

 

[Revoltingest]

Some have good reason to roll their eyes when they hear mild or stretchy claims of disadvantage....

(I was looking for an excuse to post this pic.)

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Some have good reason to roll their eyes when they hear mild or stretchy claims of disadvantage....

(I was looking for an excuse to post this pic.)

That's as bad as people who roll their eyes at uppity business owners who they say "should" pay more taxes and like it.

You make money and take a monthly draw from your net income? Oh boo-hoo. You're acting so entitled!

[/sarcasm]

 

[YmirGF]

That's as bad as people who roll their eyes at uppity business owners who they say "should" pay more taxes and like it.

You make money and take a monthly draw from your net income? Oh boo-hoo. You're acting so entitled!

[/sarcasm]

What has always tickled my funny bone is that, as far as I am aware, the very people who say they "should" pay more taxes do not act on that desire. For example, Warren Buffet has fought the IRS for almost a decade. I'm pretty sure that the fight is not because his phalanx of lawyers are arguing that the IRS has not taxed him enough. I've yet to hear of anyone who made out a big fat cheque above and beyond their assessment.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I think people confuse "privilege" with guilt. It's not an indictment. It's not a charge of supremacy. It's an unearned advantage.

Straights can afford to walk up to any judge in any part of the country and ask for a marriage license. Homosexuals in many parts of the country asking for a same sex marriage licenses have to jump through hoops just because of their orientation.

Men can afford to dress how they want in many parts of the country and not be at all concerned for their safety or security. They can walk around unaware of the concept of "showing some skin" and "getting attacked." Women are not afforded that luxury in many parts of the country and in many households.

Whites can afford to be unaware of driving without getting stopped by a police officer just because they "look suspicious" or if they're "on the wrong side of town." Whites are not affected as much as people of color with the "stop and frisk" laws. People of color are affected daily by phenomenons as "driving while black" and racial profiling.

Privilege is the advantage of being unaware of issues faced by people who are at an unearned disadvantage. And privilege offers the advantage to scoff at "mild or stretchy claims" by saying they don't exist. True...they don't exist for privileged people, but saying they don't exist for people of privilege does not mean they don't exist at all.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

What has always tickled my funny bone is that, as far as I am aware, the very people who say they "should" pay more taxes do not act on that desire. For example, Warren Buffet has fought the IRS for almost a decade. I'm pretty sure that the fight is not because his phalanx of lawyers are arguing that the IRS has not taxed him enough. I've yet to hear of anyone who made out a big fat cheque above and beyond their assessment.

I had read before that Mitt Romney paid more than he should - or was expected to - by limiting his deductions.

 

[Revoltingest]

Privilege is the advantage of being unaware of issues faced by people who are at an unearned disadvantage. And privilege offers the advantage to scoff at "mild or stretchy claims" by saying they don't exist. True...they don't exist for privileged people, but saying they don't exist for people of privilege does not mean they don't exist at all.

I think there's much over-generalization in all directions here. It is not so black & white. Certainly, there are valid claims of disadvantage. There are also invalid claims. Pay attention to the real ones. Decry the false ones.

Does "privilege" only apply to those who are unaware of advantage? Anyway, I'll continue to roll my
eyes at those who claim disadvantage as an excuse for their own lack of drive, smarts & success.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I think there's much over-generalization in all directions here. It is not so black & white. Certainly, there are valid claims of disadvantage. There are also invalid claims. Pay attention to the real ones. Decry the false ones. Does "privilege" only apply to those who are unaware of advantage?

I see what you're saying. But the only way we as a group can discern what are valid and invalid is by having a conversation. We can't have a conversation when an entire demographic is dismissed.

To answer your question, I'm very aware of my white privilege.

 

[Revoltingest]

I see what you're saying. But the only way we as a group can discern what are valid and invalid is by having a conversation. We can't have a conversation when an entire demographic is dismissed.

To say they're "dismissed" is over the top, since we continually hear much carping about disadvantage, & we see legitimate claims being acted upon, eg, gay folk now do get married...yes, it's true! I saw it happen!
This passive voice approach is a problem because no offender or victim is identified. Dang near every such statement about privilege & disadvantage will always be true because any single example complies. So instead of a conversation, it's each side making opposing facile claims.

To answer your question, I'm very aware of my white privilege.

But if you're aware, is it still "privilege"?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

To say they're "dismissed" is over the top, since we continually hear much carping about disadvantage, & we see legitimate ones being acted upon. This passive voice approach is a problem because no offender or victim is identified. Dang near every such statement about privilege & disadvantage will always be true because any single example complies. So instead of a conversation, it's each side making facile claims.

If that's true, how are claims determined "legitimate"? Who decides?

But if you're aware, is it still "privilege"?

Absolutely. I have yet to be stopped by law enforcement when I head to East St. Louis - over 98% black - because I don't quite fit in. In fact, I have yet to be stopped at all for looking suspicious. Yet I have lost count of how many people of color as neighbors, friends, and family members who have said they've been stopped repeatedly. As one example.

 

[Revoltingest]

If that's true, how are claims determined "legitimate"? Who decides?

We each decide (albeit imperfectly) for ourselves.
Examples:
When co-worker Marla complained that blacks couldn't get ahead at our employer's company, I dismissed her charge because her problem was that she always showed up an hour or two late every day.
When young friend was sexually assaulted by a cop, I recognize a legitimate problem with authorities treating attractive young kids worse than us (not including you in this, toots) old fogies. Ageism & lookism are real.

Trickier example:
We hear from some that Obama's lack of presidential success is due to white racism.
To them this is real. To me it's bogus.

Absolutely. I have yet to be stopped by law enforcement when I head to East St. Louis - over 98% black - because I don't quite fit in. In fact, I have yet to be stopped at all for looking suspicious. Yet I have lost count of how many people of color as neighbors, friends, and family members who have said they've been stopped repeatedly. As one example.

I don't think anyone here disputes these very real problems. But the fact that Santa (fictional character) is white is not a problem of privilege or ethnocentrism any more than the fact that Blade (fictional character) is black.