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America's view on Islam

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Interesting stats, Rob.

I really hate to admit it, but my view of Islam is, I am sure, distorted by what I have seen lately. Whilst I know this, and I know that I have to fight pre-conceptions that are fuelled by what I see and hear, I am having a tough job convincing myself not to be bigoted.............

Well, there's no point in being dishonest, is there?
 

evearael

Well-Known Member
Frankly, I'm surprised the sentiments aren't worse, as xenophobic as people can be. I think just about every group has a tendancy to condemn another entire group based on the actions of a handful of misguide individuals, all the while glossing over their own groups crimes in the past.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
evearael said:
Frankly, I'm surprised the sentiments aren't worse, as xenophobic as people can be. I think just about every group has a tendancy to condemn another entire group based on the actions of a handful of misguide individuals, all the while glossing over their own groups crimes in the past.

When you get to my age, it takes a while to think that the noisy minority don't represent all. Until I think about it; I guess it's a normal human gut reaction; do I feel guilty ? Sure, I hate being judgemental.
 

Maxist

Active Member
I am by no means part of the 37% in the first paragraph. Some of my good freinds are Muslim. I attempt not to associate myself with those who are anti-Muslim. This is not a portrail of what I would not expect this from anyone; but then, this survey, most likly being a portrail of 2,009 Americans, may be.
 

Nehustan

Well-Known Member
evearael said:
Frankly, I'm surprised the sentiments aren't worse, as xenophobic as people can be. I think just about every group has a tendancy to condemn another entire group based on the actions of a handful of misguide individuals, all the while glossing over their own groups crimes in the past.

I thought Zenophobia was a fear of Buddhists.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
Islam and Muslims are our new current favorite whipping-boy. In watching the late night talk shows, I see that comedians think it ok to make fun of Muslims in ways in which they wouldn't dare do with other identity groups. And even liberals feel it alright to make gross overgeneralizations about Muslims that they wouldn't dare do with other identity groups (except conservatives of course).

People keep saying, "If there really are moderate Muslims, then why aren't they doing something? Why aren't they more vocal?"

There are moderate and liberal Muslims, and some of them are very vocal. A lot of them are not. Why not? Why don't most of us act in the face of injustice? Most of us do not. Why didn't the vast majority of German citizens rise up against Hitler? I don't believe it's because there was something particularly wrong with Germans. Some of the more angry Europeans are asking Americans why we don't rise up against Bush when we know that what he's doing is wrong. Yeah, we know. And aside from a few protests and emails I don't do much about it. Why am I not chaining myself to the gate of the White House when I know that my country is torturing people and killing others? I don't know. History will condemn us and I dont blame it. But I know that I won't be so quick to condemn others for not acting. It's so easy to condemn others when you're not the one who has to put your own butt on the line.

Another related question that I hear is "If there really are moderate Muslims, then how come all the Muslims that I see are radicals?"

:banghead3
Maybe because the media only shows you the ones who are radicals.
Maybe because radicals tend to be more vocal and visible than moderates.
Maybe because there are moderate Muslims all around you and yet you don't see them. The people who go out of their way to identify themselves as Muslim are the ones who feel the most strongly about it. That doesn't mean that all of them are extremists, but certainly on average they would be more extremist than the ones who don't make a point of identifying themselves. (Just as is the case for other religions.) And the moderates are probably afraid to identify themselves.

Muslims constitute over 1.2 billion people in this world, from all over this world. That means about 20% of the world's population is Muslim. If they were all radicals who like to blow things up and kill people, there would be a helluva lot more violence than there is. There are more Muslims in Southeast Asia, particularly Indonesia and Malaysia than there are in the Middle East. There is a huge Chinese Muslim population (Arab is one of China's five national languages). America being the immigrant country that it is, you've probably come into contact with Muslims and not even recognized that they were Muslims, because they don't fit our sterotype. Just peaceful people going about their lives, and then we have the nerve to ask how come all the Muslims we see are "violent" etc. It would be embarassing if it weren't so damn awful.
 

Nehustan

Well-Known Member
Some very fair comments about the level of illiteracy of our muslim brothers...it is inexcusable that given Gabriels first command to Muhammad was 'Iqra' (recite/read) that many of our brothers have such a low level of education. I believe it is a collective fault verging on sin. I mean OK Muhammad was illiterate, but he had regular visits from the entity that identified himself as Gabriel, that doesn't happen everyday.
 

Nehustan

Well-Known Member
evearael said:
Nehustan - I thought Zenophobics were just ardent followers of Parmenides... :)

Do you know I usually get things....but that went 'swoooooossssshhhhhhhh' right over my head. I did classics at school, but can you delineate?
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
Nehustan said:
Do you know I usually get things....but that went 'swoooooossssshhhhhhhh' right over my head. I did classics at school, but can you delineate?
Zeno's paradox. :)
 

Nehustan

Well-Known Member
ahhh of course I know this...its often cited as a possibility for the afterlife, i.e. as the brain ceases to function it follows Zeno's paradox effectively having no end.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
How many Muslims do you know Paul? I mean really know? Not just what you see on tv. How many have you had dinner with? Spoken to about their experiences? Listened to what it's like for them to live in the West post 9/11?

I've seen you draw the distinction between "Westernized Islam" and "third world Islam" before. That to my ears sounds like "Islam that is closer to my way of thinking is ok but Islam that is more different than my way of thinking is not ok." What to you constitutes a "third world" country? Or a "backwards" country?

And what makes you think that Islam is the cause of this "backwardness"? There was a time when the West was still mired in the "Dark Ages" when Islamic scholars rescued Aristotle from oblivion, translating him from Greek to Arabic. When Western scholars rediscovered Aristotle, it was from the Arabic translations. Islamic scientists and doctors made huge contributions to science and medicine, mathematics and metaphysics. Islamic philosphers such as Ibn Sina (Avicenna) and Ibn Rushd (Averroes) greatly influenced later Western thinkers. Then the West did this thing called the Crusades. And then carved up the Middle East, Asia and Africa.

Yes, I would agree that the countries in which Islam is growing by leaps and bounds (it is btw the fastest growing religion in the world) tend to be poorer. But I highly doubt that anyone can prove that Islam is the cause of their poverty. My first guess would be the lingering effects of Western imperialism. And my guess as to one reason why Islam is growing so much in these countries is because Islam appeals to the disenfranchised more than other religions do. I'm sure it also doesn't hurt that Islam is seen as opposed to Western imperialism.

Yes, there is a higher correlation between Islam and violence these days than with other religions. But to say that Islam is the cause of the violence would be the equivalent of pointing to the higher correlation between blacks and violent crime in the U.S. and drawing a similar conclusion. Very few of us would do the latter; yet we think it's ok to do the former. There are other causes for the violence - poverty, despair, and anger.
 
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