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An example of why I am against prostitution

Karl R

Karl R

Active Member
In a perfect world where Irishmen drove their motorbikes safely, I am sure Irishmen riding motorbikes would be fine.

But these Irishmen are crashing into telegraph-poles and walls. A 41 year-old Irishman crashed his motorbike into two cars on Crumlin Road in Belfast. It's not safe for the Irishmen driving the motorbikes, and it's not safe for the other people on the road.

Separate road accidents leave three dead - RTÉ News

sandandfoam,
Should motorbikes be banned in all of Ireland just because I could (easily) find an example of three men fatally crashing their motorbikes?

And don't get me started on surfing and climbing.

------------

Obviously, I don't have a problem with people riding motorbikes/motorcycles in Ireland (or anywhere else). There are some people who ride them responsibly. There are others who are hazards to everyone on the road.

Do you think the problems with the reckless motorbike drivers should be addressed by banning motorbikes/motorcycles in general?

Why do you believe sex trafficking and child abuse should be addressed through wholesale attacks on prostitution?
 
sandandfoam

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
Karl R said:
Why do you believe sex trafficking and child abuse should be addressed through wholesale attacks on prostitution?
Click to expand...

Because unlike surfing/climbing and biking I believe that prostitution is inherently abusive.
The experts tell me that very few people willingly engage in prostitution and I believe them.
 
illykitty

illykitty

RF's pet cat
Horrorble said:
In a perfect world, barely anyone would choose to be a prostitute, if anyone at all.
Click to expand...

I think so too, I mean take money out of the equation and I can't imagine why a woman would do this at all. I'm sure women who do actually enjoy sex would be more choosy.

Not to mention with prostitution comes violence, drugs, excessive alcohol, children prostitution, etc. And of course people being owned like property.
 
Darkness

Darkness

Psychoanalyst/Marxist
I am against prostitution because I reject the modern liberal notion of freedom that is rooted in preference-set utilitarianism. I am a Marxist who adheres to something similar to the ancient Greek concept of human flourishing/ευδαιμονια. In other words, I believe there are certain ways of living that are objectively more perfect in terms of human nature than other forms of living. I reject the concept from Thomas Hobbes that everything is reducible to subjective pleasure and pain.

Trading away your sexuality for the abstract power of money is an inherently disordered way to live, because it reduces the notion of sexuality (which is the essence of love and life from my understanding of philosophical anthropology) to the lowest common denominator. It reduces sex to a mere drug. Prostitution is slavery and unfreedom because it chains us to our basest desires. Freedom in the ancient sense is the freedom of the higher-self from the lower-self, not mere arbitrary choice.

It is no wonder that capitalist society has embraced the liberal preference-set notion of liberty as arbitrary choice instead of substantive freedom, since arbitrary choice is the spiritual reflection/other of the logic of the economy. Our notions of what liberty is has come to mirror the process of capitalism in our practical-material lives.
 
Alceste

Alceste

Vagabond
Horrorble said:
I love it when someone says "I don't agree with prostitution"
and the first response is "why do you want to ban it for!!!???"
Click to expand...

Reactionaries, everywhere. Can't tell the difference between rational criticism and total, uncompromising intolerance.
 
Wherenextcolumbus

Wherenextcolumbus

Well-Known Member
illykitty said:
I think so too, I mean take money out of the equation and I can't imagine why a woman would do this at all. I'm sure women who do actually enjoy sex would be more choosy.

Not to mention with prostitution comes violence, drugs, excessive alcohol, children prostitution, etc. And of course people being owned like property.
Click to expand...

Yes, I follow a blog that posts reviews Johns have made about prostitutes, it's mostly whining about how the woman didn't act like she liked it, that she wouldn't allow the John to do this that and the other to her.
There are prostitutes who would even try to get the money and avoid having to do any sex act at all. Someone I knew told me that her friend was a prostitute and she used to get the money up front and then run out the fire exit at the restaurant and someone would be waiting for her in a car to drive her off lol!
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Horrorble said:
I love it when someone says "I don't agree with prostitution"
and the first response is "why do you want to ban it for!!!???"
Click to expand...
But that wasn't the first response.
It wasn't even the second. (I should know...it was mine.)
St Frank & I both directly addressed the content of the OP.

Is it reactionary to ignore the points of theses responses, ie, that slavery
or human trafficking are the problems, rather than prostitution itself?
 
Alceste

Alceste

Vagabond
Horrorble said:
Yes, I follow a blog that posts reviews Johns have made about prostitutes, it's mostly whining about how the woman didn't act like she liked it, that she wouldn't allow the John to do this that and the other to her.
There are prostitutes who would even try to get the money and avoid having to do any sex act at all. Someone I knew told me that her friend was a prostitute and she used to get the money up front and then run out the fire exit at the restaurant and someone would be waiting for her in a car to drive her off lol!
Click to expand...

My prostitute friend does the negotiated deeds, but she never sticks with the job for long because she isn't into men at all, so it starts to get tedious. And the only reason she is able to do it at all (IMO) is that her extensive history of sexual abuse has left her with a lack of healthy physical boundaries.
 
Wherenextcolumbus

Wherenextcolumbus

Well-Known Member
Revoltingest said:
But that wasn't the first response.
It wasn't even the second. (I should know...it was mine.)
St Frank & I both directly addressed the content of the OP.

Is it reactionary to ignore the points of theses responses, ie, that slavery
or human trafficking are the problems, rather than prostitution itself?
Click to expand...

Well in all of these kinds of threads about the sex industry at least two people respond that way.
Prostitution is the problem, I think you have read enough of these threads to figure it out. But maybe you are just not very sympathetic to poor/ vulnerable women? You only see it as a problem when they are literally being directly forced by someone else.
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Horrorble said:
Well in all of these kinds of threads about the sex industry at least two people respond that way.
Click to expand...
Tis best to not presume that we'll all respond in a stereotypical fashion.
But the legal status of prostitution is closely linked with the issue.

Prostitution is the problem, I think you have read enough of these threads to figure it out. But maybe you are just not very sympathetic to poor/ vulnerable women? You only see it as a problem when they are literally being directly forced by someone else.
Click to expand...
Or perhaps I have a very different values regarding government's authority over us.
We may each "figure it out", yet still hold different opinions.
 
Karl R

Karl R

Active Member
sandandfoam said:
Because unlike surfing/climbing and biking I believe that prostitution is inherently abusive.
Click to expand...
Demonstrate that, and you'll have a far more persuasive argument.

Inherent: Existing as an essential constituent or characteristic; intrinsic.

There's your standard of proof.

sandandfoam said:
The experts tell me that very few people willingly engage in prostitution and I believe them.
Click to expand...
Good. If experts tell you this, you'll certainly be able to provide a link to a source where they're saying it online.

I've worked some awful, low-paying jobs before. I worked those jobs because it was preferable to being homeless and starving. Would you say that I worked those jobs willingly?

Do you think my life would have been better without those jobs? Would I have been better off if I lacked the money to buy food and pay rent?

If a person has a choice between a lousy job and no job, I support their right to work the lousy job. That includes prostitution.

In a perfect world, everyone would have the education/job skills to get a better job. Prostitutes, migrant farmers, day laborers, etc. And that's the solution to the problem. Educate and train people so they can do something else. The ones who hate the job will quit. The remaining ones will be able to get better pay and working conditions, because the supply of prostitutes will have dropped (and the demand will be the same).
 
Wherenextcolumbus

Wherenextcolumbus

Well-Known Member
Karl R said:
I've worked some awful, low-paying jobs before. I worked those jobs because it was preferable to being homeless and starving. Would you say that I worked those jobs willingly?

Do you think my life would have been better without those jobs? Would I have been better off if I lacked the money to buy food and pay rent?
Click to expand...

But were you being sexually abused in those jobs? Because if you are aren't really willing to be a prostitute then you are being sexually violated.
 
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