Anarchism vs communism

[SomeRandom]

And are either really achievable?

So I’m not really great at politics. A lot of the theory flies over my head. I’d rather waffle on about Sartre or Oscar Wilde than Marx or Heigel (sp?)
But I’m trying to do better. Find a home for my confused self.
I’m not really a fan of capitalism. Anarchism and communism appeals to my desires for a world without hierarchies. But I’ve always dismissed their goals as too unreachable due to human nature being inherently selfish and greedy. But I’ve seen people pull together to support charities, feed the homeless, build schools, ethically source whatever etc. So clearly I’m just being a cynical doomer.

So am I just buying into the capitalist notion that we are just selfish greedy materialistic ********?
Leftists often say the same about humanity, but I guess they’re trying to use that as an impetus to change for the better.

Can we possibly find a way to make these systems work?
And what’s the difference? I often encounter “anarchocomunists” so there’s clearly some solidarity to be found apparently.

 

[epronovost]

Technically speaking the vast majority of human life history was spent under a paleocommunist system of governance and trade. How X can work varies tremendously based on what are the current limitation and assets on hand.

 

[SomeRandom]

Technically speaking the vast majority of human life history was spent under a paleocommunist system of governance and trade. How X can work varies tremendously based on what are the current limitation and assets on hand.

That is true. I recall learning from Horrible Histories about the “peelers” a Victorian invented police force of sorts. And I had an “epiphany.” A lot of the structures in society today had to be invented at one time. I was also like 13 - 15 (probably even younger) at the time so don’t judge me lol

 

[joe1776]

And are either really achievable?

So I’m not really great at politics. A lot of the theory flies over my head. I’d rather waffle on about Sartre or Oscar Wilde than Marx or Heigel (sp?)
But I’m trying to do better. Find a home for my confused self.
I’m not really a fan of capitalism. Anarchism and communism appeals to my desires for a world without hierarchies. But I’ve always dismissed their goals as too unreachable due to human nature being inherently selfish and greedy. But I’ve seen people pull together to support charities, feed the homeless, build schools, ethically source whatever etc. So clearly I’m just being a cynical doomer.

So am I just buying into the capitalist notion that we are just selfish greedy materialistic ********?
Leftists often say the same about humanity, but I guess they’re trying to use that as an impetus to change for the better.

Can we possibly find a way to make these systems work?
And what’s the difference? I often encounter “anarchocomunists” so there’s clearly some solidarity to be found apparently.

I think the competitive, free market has a temporary, partial utility, but only because we humans have yet to invent a government that isn't inept, corrupt, or both. A fully cooperative economy needs to be well-managed.

Once we've done that, a cooperative economy will work well and fairly for all citizens. Until then, the "mixed economies" are the best we can do.

The market economy works well when consumers can be well-informed and they're spending their own money in order to control fraud. It won't work with insured healthcare where fraud runs rampant.

 

[SomeRandom]

I think the competitive, free market has a temporary, partial utility, but only because we humans have yet to invent a government that isn't inept, corrupt, or both. A fully cooperative economy needs to be well-managed.

Once we've done that, a cooperative economy will work well and fairly for all citizens. Until then, the "mixed economies" are the best we can do.

The market economy works well when consumers can be well-informed and they're spending their own money in order to control fraud. It won't work with insured healthcare where fraud runs rampant.

Fair. Though speaking from an outside observer, the US private healthcare system looks downright despicable.

 

[joe1776]

Fair. Though speaking from an outside observer, the US private healthcare system looks downright despicable.

Agreed. It's a disgrace.

 

[Heyo]

And are either really achievable?

So I’m not really great at politics. A lot of the theory flies over my head. I’d rather waffle on about Sartre or Oscar Wilde than Marx or Heigel (sp?)
But I’m trying to do better. Find a home for my confused self.
I’m not really a fan of capitalism. Anarchism and communism appeals to my desires for a world without hierarchies. But I’ve always dismissed their goals as too unreachable due to human nature being inherently selfish and greedy. But I’ve seen people pull together to support charities, feed the homeless, build schools, ethically source whatever etc. So clearly I’m just being a cynical doomer.

So am I just buying into the capitalist notion that we are just selfish greedy materialistic ********?
Leftists often say the same about humanity, but I guess they’re trying to use that as an impetus to change for the better.

Can we possibly find a way to make these systems work?
And what’s the difference? I often encounter “anarchocomunists” so there’s clearly some solidarity to be found apparently.

You put this under communist only - which I am clearly not. I know a thing or two about Anarchism though. With your permission I will comment on that part of the question (and maybe bash communism in the process). Are you OK with that?

 

[SomeRandom]

You put this under communist only - which I am clearly not. I know a thing or two about Anarchism though. With your permission I will comment on that part of the question (and maybe bash communism in the process). Are you OK with that?

Go for it. Hopefully the mods won’t punish you.

 

[Nimos]

I’m not really a fan of capitalism. Anarchism and communism appeals to my desires for a world without hierarchies. But I’ve always dismissed their goals as too unreachable due to human nature being inherently selfish and greedy.

You have to remember that capitalism came as a result of people wanting a more equal society and to get rid of feudalism, church, kings etc. that was controlling everything.
Yet it failed, as these people were simply replaced by others, so rather than having powerful kings and noble people, you now have powerful companies, organisations and individuals. Which is what the socialists noticed and complained about. Capitalism couldn't bring people the equality that they had hoped and fought for and therefore they wanted to get rid of it and replace it with socialism.

However since Stalin manage to proclaim that now they had achieved communism/socialism, and things then going terribly wrong in those countries, socialism got a very bad reputation. And is often used as examples of what people can expect from it, if people should ever want socialism. But the issue is that they never had socialism, they had state capitalism. So the capitalist used that to throw dirt at socialism and promote their own system, and it's clear today that capitalism is not going to make an equal society that the people in the past hoped it would.

Can we possibly find a way to make these systems work?

I think it is possible to achieve something closer to socialism and more equalized system than what we currently see around the world. But whether it can happen peacefully or not is another question. If you look at what is going on in some of the biggest countries around the world, such a China and Russia, which are basically or very close to being dictatorships, it doesn't really seem to go in the direction of more equality, but rather the opposite way. US is still having huge issues with healthcare systems and making a equal society for their citizens, the difference between rich and poor and how the wealth is shared is insane.

People need to be aware that things doesn't have to be a certain way, and that those people that original suggested socialism as a solution to capitalism, didn't do it because they were evil, they did it because capitalism couldn't deliver what it promised and therefore they wanted something else and better.

 

[SomeRandom]

You have to remember that capitalism came as a result of people wanting a more equal society and to get rid of feudalism, church, kings etc. that was controlling everything.
Yet it failed, as these people were simply replaced by others, so rather than having powerful kings and noble people, you now have powerful companies, organisations and individuals. Which is what the socialists noticed and complained about. Capitalism couldn't bring people the equality that they had hoped and fought for and therefore they wanted to get rid of it and replace it with socialism.

However since Stalin manage to proclaim that now they had achieved communism/socialism, and things then going terribly wrong in those countries, socialism got a very bad reputation. And is often used as examples of what people can expect from it, if people should ever want socialism. But the issue is that they never had socialism, they had state capitalism. So the capitalist used that to throw dirt at socialism and promote their own system, and it's clear today that capitalism is not going to make an equal society that the people in the past hoped it would.

I think it is possible to achieve something closer to socialism and more equalized system than what we currently see around the world. But whether it can happen peacefully or not is another question. If you look at what is going on in some of the biggest countries around the world, such a China and Russia, which are basically or very close to being dictatorships, it doesn't really seem to go in the direction of more equality, but rather the opposite way. US is still having huge issues with healthcare systems and making a equal society for their citizens, the difference between rich and poor and how the wealth is shared is insane.

People need to be aware that things doesn't have to be a certain way, and that those people that original suggested socialism as a solution to capitalism, didn't do it because they were evil, they did it because capitalism couldn't deliver what it promised and therefore they wanted something else and better.

So angst against the dominant class is common then? lol
Fair enough, I just don’t like the current Political climate. And I seem to line up with the “leftists” in a lot of things. So I’m trying to label myself properly.
But how can I “activist” properly?

 

[Tambourine]

I would argue from the reverse: We can see with our own eyes that the capitalist order is incapable of providing everyone in the world with freedom, fairness, and their basic human needs.

So if we want this to be the case, we need to find an alternative political-economic order that can help provide these things.

 

[Kenny]

And are either really achievable?

So I’m not really great at politics. A lot of the theory flies over my head. I’d rather waffle on about Sartre or Oscar Wilde than Marx or Heigel (sp?)
But I’m trying to do better. Find a home for my confused self.
I’m not really a fan of capitalism. Anarchism and communism appeals to my desires for a world without hierarchies. But I’ve always dismissed their goals as too unreachable due to human nature being inherently selfish and greedy. But I’ve seen people pull together to support charities, feed the homeless, build schools, ethically source whatever etc. So clearly I’m just being a cynical doomer.

So am I just buying into the capitalist notion that we are just selfish greedy materialistic ********?
Leftists often say the same about humanity, but I guess they’re trying to use that as an impetus to change for the better.

Can we possibly find a way to make these systems work?
And what’s the difference? I often encounter “anarchocomunists” so there’s clearly some solidarity to be found apparently.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I think even in anarchism or communism still has it hierarchies.

What is the problem? IMV, the heart.

Can there be a good dictator? Probably if the heart is right.

I can and do buy into capitalism - but I also know that if the heart is wrong, capitalism is wrong. So, JC Penney, (Penny stores) - was a millionaire but always gave away 90% of his income and lived on 10%. There are other people like him.

What is good about capitalism if the heart is right?

1. It rewards the hard worker vs the couch potato
2. It opens the door to anybody who is willing to put the effort.
3. If the heart is right, then the capitalist is involved in helping build hospitals, schools, venues for people who through no fault of their own need a helping hand
4. It promotes innovation. "If I can do this work better and faster then there will be a great reward."

Communism means the hard worker support the couch potato.

 

[Tambourine]

And what’s the difference? I often encounter “anarchocomunists” so there’s clearly some solidarity to be found apparently.

It's complicated. Bear in mind that I am by no means an expert on either Marxism, Anarchism, or Anarcho-Communism.

The common goal that unites all of them is the abolition of the capitalist order and the governments that come with it, in favor of a form of political economics that allows people to be truly free ("communism" in Marxist and Anarcho-Communist parlance).

It is the intermediate steps towards that abolition of oppression where Marxists/Communists and Anarchists/Anarcho-Communists tend to differ:

Marxism essentially calls for a multi-stage approach, where the workers of the world are first united under a common banner, topple the existing order, and then take control of the state (the 'Dictatorship of the Proletariat', "dictatorship" here meaning a temporary regime) in order to realize the changes necessary to achieve the full abolition of capitalism.

Anarchism seeks to just cut through the bull**** and create an uprising against the capitalist order ASAP, with the exact methods and tactics to be determined according to need when that actually happens.

It may be worth noting that Marxism started off as an early branch of Anarchism that became its own thing, and that throughout history, Anarchists and Communists often fought side-by-side against capitalist oppression.

 

[Heyo]

Can we possibly find a way to make these systems work?

Yes, we can. There are examples in history (and some in the present). Most of them small scale like Kristiania but some were quite large like in Spain, Germany and Bulgaria. But did they "work"? They all had/have problems but the most dangerous has always been the fear of the neighbours that it might work. A functioning, free association of people is a danger for any authoritarian regime which in turn makes them very hostile.

And what’s the difference?

If you are familiar with the political compass, communism is on the left side, mostly in the upper quadrant. Anarchism is on the bottom side, all over the economic spectrum. (@Revoltingest calls himself a Libertarian but he is also an anarchist, he is as far right as the spectrum goes while I am on the other side but we both care for (personal) liberty.)

I often encounter “anarchocomunists” so there’s clearly some solidarity to be found apparently.

A.k.a. Antifa. We share the authoritarian right (fascists) as an enemy. The commies don't like them because they are on the right, we don't like them because they are authoritarian. But there is no common goal or at least no agreed upon way to reach it. Communists are inherently authoritarian (dictatorship of the working class), Anarchists are libertarian.

 

[SomeRandom]

I think you hit the nail on the head. I think even in anarchism or communism still has it hierarchies.

What is the problem? IMV, the heart.

Can there be a good dictator? Probably if the heart is right.

I can and do buy into capitalism - but I also know that if the heart is wrong, capitalism is wrong. So, JC Penney, (Penny stores) - was a millionaire but always gave away 90% of his income and lived on 10%. There are other people like him.

What is good about capitalism if the heart is right?

1. It rewards the hard worker vs the couch potato
2. It opens the door to anybody who is willing to put the effort.
3. If the heart is right, then the capitalist is involved in helping build hospitals, schools, venues for people who through no fault of their own need a helping hand
4. It promotes innovation. "If I can do this work better and faster then there will be a great reward."

Communism means the hard worker support the couch potato.

If I understand marxist philosophy (and I probably don’t) I don’t think that’s a fair assessment. Communists seem bothered that their labor pays the cheques of the wealthy class instead of going back in their own pockets. Seize the means of production and all that, right?
I work for a company, the company pays me a wage for my labour. Which my union fought for and likely came to a compromise. But it’s not like I reap the benefits of my hard work. I’m no slacker, but the real profit goes to the shareholders. People who invest in the business and sit back on their butts expecting constant profit.
We cut costs, we try to limit worker hours despite the demands. If the laws weren’t so strict we’d see other cuts the company would likely make to appease their shareholders.

 

[Nimos]

But how can I “activist” properly?

Well not really all that political active myself, I personally just tend to go with what I believe will promote the most equal society and help those that are the weakest. The rich people will survive even if they have to wait an extra month or two to purchase yet another 1-2+ million dollar house. Yet the poor persons which can't afford decent healthcare, education etc. will have a much harder time.

I don't know where you are from? But if you are from the US, I would think that the best way to do something to try to push things in another direction, whether that is towards socialism or simply views that lean that way, is to learn as much as you can about socialism and capitalism. Because there seem to be a huge misunderstanding of what socialism actually is, and the moment someone mention the word, people instantly think about something horrible.

So to make people understand what exactly socialism is and why people wanted it back in the days, would probably be the best way. Standing with a sign yelling, I doubt will do a lot of good, because people won't be any wiser from that, but might actually just be angry at you.

I would strongly suggest watching this lecture, its very good and he explain things well I think.:

 

[SomeRandom]

Well not really all that political active myself, I personally just tend to go with what I believe will promote the most equal society and help those that are the weakest. The rich people will survive even if they have to wait an extra month or two to purchase yet another 1-2+ million dollar house. Yet the poor persons which can't afford decent healthcare, education etc. will have a much harder time.

I don't know where you are from? But if you are from the US, I would think that the best way to do something to try to push things in another direction, whether that is towards socialism or simply views that lean that way, is to learn as much as you can about socialism and capitalism. Because there seem to be a huge misunderstanding of what socialism actually is, and the moment someone mention the word, people instantly think about something horrible.

So to make people understand what exactly socialism is and why people wanted it back in the days, would probably be the best way. Standing with a sign yelling, I doubt will do a lot of good, because people won't be any wiser from that, but might actually just be angry at you.

I would strongly suggest watching this lecture, its very good and he explain things well I think.:

I’m from Australiastan. We’d probably be called a bunch of commies by the US for our healthcare system alone.

 

[sun rise]

As a note, Wikipedia of course has much on the topic of anarcho-communism Anarcho-communism - Wikipedia

 

[Kenny]

If I understand marxist philosophy (and I probably don’t) I don’t think that’s a fair assessment. Communists seem bothered that their labor pays the cheques of the wealthy class instead of going back in their own pockets. Seize the means of production and all that, right?
I work for a company, the company pays me a wage for my labour. Which my union fought for and likely came to a compromise. But it’s not like I reap the benefits of my hard work. I’m no slacker, but the real profit goes to the shareholders. People who invest in the business and sit back on their butts expecting constant profit.
We cut costs, we try to limit worker hours despite the demands. If the laws weren’t so strict we’d see other cuts the company would likely make to appease their shareholders.

Yes... like I said, Capitalism without a heart is no different than Communism or Marxism.

But even when I worked for Winn Dixie, they had employee stock options (that some didn't participate in), they had educational programs (that some didn't participate in) and they had a retirement fund.

I had a friend working at an Office Equipment place that after work would go and fix appliances. He now has two appliance stores.

Capitalism with a heart offers those options. Marxism offers everyone a flat rate (if I am not mistaken). It also offers the elimination of family and religion.

 

[Kenny]

I’m from Australiastan. We’d probably be called a bunch of commies by the US for our healthcare system alone.

HEY, DON'T CALL MY GRANDCHILDREN COMMIES!!