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Anarchy

Yerda

Veteran Member
Someone was talking about anarchy in another thread (Druidus I think?) and I thought I'd start a thread and see if anyone has any opinions.

I know very little outside the common perception of chaos, hatred of authority blah blah. Common perceptions are usually ridiculous though.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
I was going to send this to Druidus...but I forgot. So, I'll just stick them on this page :D.

http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/

In his "Opinions and Ideas" section, he has some good arguments for Anarchism. i don't buy them, but I do credit him with strong arguments.
 

Druidus

Keeper of the Grove
Anarchy is a political concept in which there is no political authority. Obviously this would not work without some planning, but yes, it is possible, as seen in the Spanish Revolution.

https://flag.blackened.net/revolt/spaindx.html

Go down until you reach eyewitness accounts of the Spanish Anarchy, and be sure to catch the pictures.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Well as much as having no authority above yourself is appealing, it would never last.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
Mister Emu said:
Well as much as having no authority above yourself is appealing, it would never last.

I can agree with that. No matter what, resources and power will be consolidated, and something ugly will be the result.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Sorry to break in and be off topic (but I can do that ;) ):

EMU'S BACK !!!! :jiggy:

EMU'S BACK !!!!!:woohoo:

Ok, back on topic......
 

Druidus

Keeper of the Grove
Human nature.
You made me smile. ;)

Anarchists, far from ignoring "human nature," have the only political theory that gives this concept deep thought and reflection. Too often, "human nature" is flung up as the last line of defence in an argument against anarchism, because it is thought to be beyond reply. This is not the case, however.

First of all, human nature is a complex thing. If, by human nature, it is meant "what humans do," it is obvious that human nature is contradictory -- love and hate, compassion and heartlessness, peace and violence, and so on, have all been expressed by people and so are all products of "human nature." Of course, what is considered "human nature" can change with changing social circumstances. For example, slavery was considered part of "human nature" and "normal" for thousands of years, and war only become part of "human nature" once states developed. Therefore, environment plays an important part in defining what "human nature" is.

This does not mean that human beings are infinitely plastic, with each individual born a tabula rasa (blank slate) waiting to be formed by "society" (which in practice means those who run it). We do not wish to enter the debate about what human characteristics are and are not "innate." All we will say is that human beings have an innate ability to think and learn -- that much is obvious, we feel -- and that humans are sociable creatures, needing the company of others to feel complete and to prosper.

These two features, we think, suggest the viability of an anarchist society. The innate ability to think for oneself automatically makes all forms of hierarchy illegitimate, and our need for social relationships implies that we can organise without the state. The deep unhappiness and alienation afflicting modern society reveals that the centralisation and authoritarianism of capitalism and the state is denying some innate needs within us.

In fact, as mentioned earlier, for the great majority of its existence the human race has lived in anarchic communities, with little or no hierarchy. That modern society calls such people "savages" or "primitive" is pure arrogance. So who can tell whether anarchism is against "human nature"? Anarchists have accumulated much evidence to suggest that it may not be.

As for the charge the anarchists demand too much of "human nature," it is often non anarchists who make the greatest claims on it. For "while our opponents seem to admit there is a kind of salt of the earth -- the rulers, the employers, the leaders -- who, happily enough, prevent those bad men -- the ruled, the exploited, the led -- from becoming much worse than they are. . . , there is [a] difference, and a very important one. We admit the imperfections of human nature, but we make no exception for the rulers. They make it, although sometimes unconsciously" [Peter Kropotkin, Act for Yourselves, p. 83] If human nature is so bad, then giving some people power over others and hoping this will lead to justice and freedom is hopelessly utopian.

Today, however, with the rise of "sociobiology," some claim (with very little real evidence) that capitalism is a product of our "nature," which is determined by our genes. These claims have been leapt upon by the powers that be. Considering the dearth of evidence, their support for this "new" doctrine must be purely the result of its utility to those in power -- i.e. the fact that it is useful to have an "objective" and "scientific" basis to rationalise that power. Like the social Darwinism that preceded it, sociobiology proceeds by first projecting the dominant ideas of current society onto nature (often unconsciously, so that scientists mistakenly consider the ideas in question as both "normal" and "natural"). Then the theories of nature produced in this manner are transferred back onto society and history, being used to "prove" that the principles of capitalism (hierarchy, authority, competition, etc.) are eternal laws, which are then appealed to as a justification for the status quo! Amazingly, there are many supposedly intelligent people who take this sleight-of-hand seriously.

This sort of apologetics is natural, of course, because every ruling class has always claimed that their right to rule was based on "human nature," and hence supported doctrines that defined the latter in ways appearing to justify elite power -- be it sociobiology, divine right, original sin, etc. Obviously, such doctrines have always been wrong . . . until now, of course, as it is obvious our current society truly conforms to "human nature" and it has been scientifically proven by our current scientific priesthood!

The arrogance of this claim is truly amazing. History hasn't stopped. One thousand years from now, society will be completely different from what it is presently or from what anyone has imagined. No government in place at the moment will still be around, and the current economic system will not exist. The only thing that may remain the same is that people will still be claiming that their new society is the "One True System" that completely conforms to human nature, even though all past systems did not.

Of course, it does not cross the minds of supporters of capitalism that people from different cultures may draw different conclusions from the same facts -- conclusions that may be more valid. Nor does it occur to capitalist apologists that the theories of the "objective" scientists may be framed in the context of the dominant ideas of the society they live in. It comes as no surprise to anarchists, however, that scientists working in Tsarist Russia developed a theory of evolution based on cooperation within species, quite unlike their counterparts in capitalist Britain, who developed a theory based on competitive struggle within and between species. That the latter theory reflected the dominant political and economic theories of British society (notably competitive individualism) is pure coincidence, of course. Kropotkin's Mutual Aid was written in response to the obvious inaccuracies that British Social Darwinism projected onto nature and human life.

-
HTML:
http://www.infoshop.org/faq/sectionA.pdf

Thanks, Deut, for the link.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
EMU'S BACK !!!! :jiggy:

EMU'S BACK !!!!!:woohoo:
Thank you, though I did not realize I hadn't posted in so long as to be considered gone. I have been here, just usually lurking, because most of the times I tried to post right in the middle someone would yell they need the phone :).

Now on to Druidus,

Anarchists, far from ignoring "human nature," have the only political theory that gives this concept deep thought and reflection. Too often, "human nature" is flung up as the last line of defence in an argument against anarchism, because it is thought to be beyond reply. This is not the case, however.
Before we go on, human nature is no last line of defence thrown up in desperation to fend off the anarchist, at least not for me. It is a formidable arguement that I will show has a very real basis.

If, by human nature, it is meant "what humans do," it is obvious that human nature is
I use it as a general trend that humanity follows.

These two features, we think, suggest the viability of an anarchist society.
An anarchaic society is viable, but in my opinion a sustained lasting anarchy of any import will never exist.

The innate ability to think for oneself automatically makes all forms of hierarchy illegitimate,
I cannot find the reasoning behind this, a hierarchy of brute strength has nothing to do with one's ability to think for one's self.

I have no care for, nor truly knowledge of sociobiology, I will not even try to defend it.

On human nature.

Given an anarchaic landmass, groups will form, some for mutual defence against persons who act in ways the group does not find acceptable, and other for conquest, those who do not join the defence unions will be swallowed by the militaristic groups, thus in a not too distant future, you will likely be in either a defensive group, or an offensive group. Both of these groups are forms of governments no matter how they decide to handle it.

An anarchy cannot exist unless every member wishes it to, and even then in this world today you would be inviting disaster in the form of invasion from another source.

Either you will form a defensive group, a militaristic group, or you will be conquered by an outside force, in any choice the anrachy is at an end.

This is how I believe an anarchy would end up, it is my opinion and nothing more.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Druidus said:
Anarchy is a political concept in which there is no political authority. Obviously this would not work without some planning, but yes, it is possible, as seen in the Spanish Revolution.
Wouldn`t that "planning" be politics?

One way or the other....
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
Druidus said:

I can echo Mr. Emu's sentiments, but I reason to them differently.

First, even in ancient nomadic tribes, and whatnot, they do have more than the minimal rules and regulations. While you dislike the term "savage," and understandably so, what you have echoed is the "Noble Savage" theory espoused by political philosophers in Europe with no way to even study first hand information on stone-age tribes, such as Jean-Jaques Rouseau. The theory of the Noble Savage has never been true IMO.

For instance, there is a tribe in South America that has a rigid structure that it applies to women, ritualized warfare, and so on. Most primitive tribes have warfare, and they do ritualize it. I believe the same may be said about social roles. We have unearthed prehistoric burians that strongly indicate a patriarchial society. All of these traits, though, contradict anarchism. There is very little evidence to say that humanity has been anarchic most of our history.

I think this fact is inevitable. We live in a world with a scarcity of resources. Without planning and care, there just isn't enough to go around. Distribution, then, is a key part of life and death. Government is simply a means of expressing that. In older societies, we had to worry about migrating herds or where berries would gather, and moved in tribes in which a large one could be a few dozen people. The rules of society and resource management evolved accordingly...and they did have rules on this.

Gradually, city-states evolved. Each managed their own material needs independantly (at first). However, when tragedies struck or there was a shortage, they would lash out at their neighbors. Of course, they would also lash out at their neighbors in order to get more material comfort for themselves (All emperors had gaining material wealth as part of their goals...and this is partially so that they have a bigger and ever bigger cushion).

The city-states, though, were inadaquate to the task compared to nation-states or empires. These managed resources better, and more efficiently for the benefit of their rulers, but it also benefited their citizens, because plenty came their way with it which was more abundant than they had had before. Since these states had greater man-power and resources, it is quite natural the city states would be subsumed or conquered by them.

We can see the ever-increasing spiral of resource management if we just look out our doors. Businesses always seek to expand themselves, for the safety of their business. So, when they can, they hire more workers. These workers in their turn yield more products, and bring their employers more revenue, which they use to expand themselves if they can. Since employers are naturally greedy (in fact, they are required to be to a degree simply on account of their role), this cycle is the norm.

A second factor is mutual protection. People band together and form rules in order to protect themselves. I don't think we need to theorize about how a thief, even in the most primitive communities, would be ostracized and cast out. The community bonds together and protects themselves against another person they consider a threat.

Now, when we couple the social response to a common threat and the need for better resource management, then we find cause behind gangs, groups of vigilantes, imperial armies (ones that invade), and so on. All of these are natural products of those needs and desires. However, these are drastically helped by the third element I'll discuss.

Here, I mention charisma and a pack mentality. People individually are nice and kind more often than not, but people as groups may be quite viscious. We have a basic desire to rally in groups...and this always tends to be behind a common leader. This often isn't nice. This leader tends to assert his authority, and the people following him extend it. In most cases, the damage such a man can do is limited by stronger powers over him that oppress him and thwart his desires. They will seize control of other people specifically to advance themselves until they are checked by an outside force.

Granted, anarchy is supposed to avoid this type of situation, but all of us have been in a situation where we have many people who don't know each other thrown together. Very quickly, someone asserts himself as leader of the group. If more than one person seeks to be dominant, there is conflict, and we either see that person ostracized, or we see their group forced into submission by other people. This phenomena is exceedingly common, and as I've stated, we've all seen it. Anarchy must find a solution for this beyond "But if the people are unwilling..." to avoid it because people are almost always willing. There must be something to change them, and make a long-lasting change. Anarchy hasn't supplied that.

All these factors working together guarantee the rise of some kind of government. Heck, even a small business or a gang is acting as a government in many respects. Wherever we see government, we really see a government governing weaker governments governing...and so on. We set these up by requirement of our enviroment, by our own social tendencies, and because it's easier. Frankly, this is an argument from human nature, and it doesn't presume very much.

Anarchy also suffers from weaknesses outside of the neccessary rise of government. It cannot really make systematic responses. It's hard enough to do that when we have governments (because not only do citizens still break the law, but the governments are like their citizens). In the U.S., the Oogoollalla Aquifer is running out. When it does, a large portion of the U.S. won't have water. It's difficult to get people to act in government, and far harder to get individuals to act. We have a chance to prepare with governments and corporations, but with anarchy...a day would simply come suddenly where people would stop receiving water, and they would migrate en masse to other areas, cause shortages, and so on. We need government to address the situation.

Another is the enviromental crisis. Anarchy can't really enforce the neccessary regulations in this matter. We already know that corporations and individuals won't do what is neccessery without outside coercion. That's why the outside coercion is occuring in the matter, and even then, we have governments that refuse sensible regulations (mine for instance), and individuals that ignore government laws.

The "Now" is always stronger than the "Maybe Tomorrow" for people. Thus, anarchy requires us to rely on something we know, from everyday experience, defies the way humans behave. They are concerned with the here and now, not the future more often than not. An anarchic society will not be able to respond to various crisis when they are on the horizen, and we are making plenty.

So, I close by saying the rise in government is impossible and anarchy itself is unworkable with our global problems.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Druidus said:
You made me smile. ;)

Anarchists, far from ignoring "human nature," have the only political theory that gives this concept deep thought and reflection. Too often, "human nature" is flung up as the last line of defence in an argument against anarchism, because it is thought to be beyond reply. This is not the case, however. ...

See, for example, ...
Anarchists, far from ignoring "human nature," have the only political theory that gives this concept deep thought and reflection. Too often, "human nature" is flung up as the last line of defence in an argument against anarchism, because it is thought to be beyond reply. This is not the case, however. First of all, human nature is a complex thing. If, by human nature, it is meant "what humans do," it is obvious that human nature is contradictory -- love and hate, compassion and heartlessness, peace and violence, and so on, have all been expressed by people and so are all products of "human nature." Of course, what is considered "human nature" can change with changing social circumstances. For example, slavery was considered part of "human nature" and "normal" for thousands of years. Homosexuality was considered perfectly normal by the ancient Greeks yet thousands of years later the Christian church denounced it as unnatural. War only become part of "human nature" once states developed. ...

- see A.2.15 What About "human nature?
I really do not like plagiarism.
 

Druidus

Keeper of the Grove
Deut, I am not trying to steal someones work. I can't even get into that website, because it is blocked by Norton as "Crime" related. In fact, I can't visit any website about anarchy, because it's all "Crime" related. I got mine off of my harddrive, where I had saved it many years ago. I didn't remember where I downloaded it, but I thank you for the link. (I think I got mine off a geocities site, though, not that one)
 
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