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Ancestral Voices: Rituals of Living

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Here is a nice trailer ($8.00 video on vimeo) about in general how African traditions see spirituality, worshiping the spirits, ancestors, and life.

 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Done in the way priests (brahmins) like it, it is lengthy, costly and involves many preparations. One can ask 5, 11, 21, 31, 51 or more priests to join. They will be feted after the ceremony is over and given gifts (Dakshina, not exactly, but sort of remuneration). But since I am myself a brahmin and an atheist, I have reduced the ceremony to the simplest. So here is how:

No eating before the (short) the ritual (however, bed-tea to which I am habituated is permitted). Take bath, tie the towel around the waist (changing into other clothes is considered impure if not silk or wollen), wear the sacred thread (the other way, i.e. from the right shoulder. For all other rituals, it is worn on the left shoulder and across).

Go to the kitchen where my wife keeps whatever charity we want to give out in the name of the departed (ancestor or a relation), it can be food stuff to be placed on the roof of the house for birds, or food for the street dogs, and money to be distributed to the needy, take some water in the cup of the hand, remember all my ancestors (known and unknown) and relatives, recount their relationship to myself, sort of go down through the family tree, assure them that we are OK and happy, and remember them, then sprinkle the water on the food and money.

At that time I remember my great-grand parents (whom I have seen in photographs), my grandparents, my maternal grandparents, my father, uncle and aunt, and a brother that I lost to renal failure in childhood. I also remember the living members of my family and my uncle's family and wish for their welfare. Ritual completed and I am ready for breakfast. For the traditional and proper 'shrāddha', see this:

 
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GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
Go to the kitchen where my wife keeps whatever charity we want to give out in the name of the departed (ancestor or a relation), it can be food stuff to be placed on the roof of the house for birds, or food for the street dogs, and money to be distributed to the needy, take some water in the cup of the hand, remember all my ancestors (known and unknown) and relatives, recount their relationship to myself, sort of go down through the family tree, assure them that we are OK and happy, and remember them, then sprinkle the water on the food and money.
That's interesting, since I didn't know Hindus still had a ritual for ancestors. But it puzzles me. How can one assure ancestors of anything if they have reincarnated?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
David, I do not believe in reincarnation (and so many other things, God, soul, heaven, hell, etc., being an atheist Hindu). These rituals are for the satisfaction of living and not anything for the dead except their remembrance. It is gratifying to think that someone will remember me as I remember my ancestors even after I am not there. A matter of love and respect..
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
That's interesting, since I didn't know Hindus still had a ritual for ancestors. But it puzzles me. How can one assure ancestors of anything if they have reincarnated?
While I can't address the Hindu idea, many Westerners (and maybe even Easterners, and most likely many indigenous peoples as well) think of the human soul/spirit as a singular thing, and it moves as one unit the state of living to an afterlife. There are many indigenous peoples (but it will take me some time to dig up references)--but more importantly to me, ME--who consider that we are not singular, and that some parts may completely end at death, other parts may hang around family and descendants for awhile or forever, and still other parts may go on to be reincarnated/transmigrated, and still other parts may do other things. It also assumes that time/space that we experience has any similarity to that of the spirit realms: You may offer honor and respect to your ancestors, among whom are some who are currently in other corporeal bodies, perhaps even your own descendants. There is no reason that respect and honor can't go to affect the ancestor in their current incarnation...in fact, to me at least, that makes a good deal of sense.

Rereading this, I'm not sure I'm being as clear as I think I am here, so I'll entertain questions to clarify, if'n you are interested...
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Rereading this, I'm not sure I'm being as clear as I think I am here, so I'll entertain questions to clarify, if'n you are interested...
Your questions will be welcome. Though my own answers differ from what a theist Hindu believes but I can answer for the other view point also since I am well familiar with that. Then there are other members of the forum who can also pitch in.
 
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beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Your questions will be welcome. Though my own answers differ from wjat a theist Hindu believes but I can answer for the other view point also since I am well familiar with that. Then there are other members of the forum who can also pitch in.
Well, then, is the soul/spirit singular or plural? Does it do more than hang out with the body, or the family, or at its favorite shrine, or reincarnate/transmigrate, etc., at the same time? (or parts of it?) My understanding of Hindu is that the part that transmigrates is not any of the personality/etc., from the current life; but is that true of all Hindus?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Depends. In 'advaita' (non-duality) it is one*. In 'dvaita' (duality) it can be one or more (Madhvacharya said that there is an inherent difference between God and humans and between different humans as well). Then there are stances that lie between these two extremes, basically saying though same but with a little difference in properties. Now this difference is mentioned clearly by some, but others say it is unfathomable. The advantage of having many philosophies is that one cannot just pin down Hinduism. :D

Of course, in life the soul is with the body advising the mind but mind does not always listen to it. That is where the problems begin. Each evil deed is a burden (karma burden) for soul to carry and the soul cries in pain. After death, the pious are in heaven or with their deities. Of course, when family needs them, they can come to give advice and help. They could also visit the family shrines. The pious have that kind of freedom which the sinners do not have. They are suffering the punishment of their evil deeds in hell. Of course, it is not for eternity, they would also get a chance to do better in their future lives. In special evil cases, they are in form or ghosts and vampires, cannot stay for any length of time in one place, they are hungry and thirsty (since nothing offered by their descendants reaches them), and in mental torture ruing their deeds. They are released only when their progeny perform the stipulated rituals (Shrāddhas - like king Bhāgiratha did for his ancestors by bringing River Ganges to the world to give deliverance to his 60,000 uncles who were suffering from a sage's curse) or arrange for reading of scriptures (like Gokarna did for his brother, Dhundhakāri, a debauch brāhmin who was in form of a vampire. Gokarna asked Sage Shukdeva to recite SrimadBhāgawatham). :D

The transmigrants have a personality in main-line 'advaita' till they wipe out their karma balance when they will merge with Brahman/super soul.
* In what I believe of 'advaita' there is no soul or God, but I am a special nut-case.
 
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beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Depends. In 'advaita' (non-duality) it is one*. In 'dvaita' (duality) it can be one or more (Madhvacharya said that there is an inherent difference between God and humans and between different humans as well). Then there are stances that lie between these two extremes, basically saying though same but with a little difference in properties. Now this difference is mentioned clearly by some, but others say it is unfathomable. The advantage of having many philosophies is that one cannot just pin down Hinduism. :D

Of course, in life the soul is with the body advising the mind but mind does not always listen to it. That is where the problems begin. Each evil deed is a burden (karma burden) for soul to carry and the soul cries in pain. After death, the pious are in heaven or with their deities. Of course, when family needs them, they can come to give advice and help. They could also visit the family shrines. The pious have that kind of freedom but the sinners do not have. They are suffering the punishment of their evil deeds in hell. Of course, it is not for eternity, they would also get a chance to do better in their future lives. In special evil cases, they are in form or ghosts and vampires, cannot stay for any length of time in one place, they are hungry and thirsty (since nothing offered by their descendants reaches them), and in mental torture ruing their deeds. They are released only when their progeny perform the stipulated rituals (Shrāddhas - like king Bhāgiratha did for his ancestors by bringing River Ganges to the world to give deliverance to his 60,000 uncles who were suffering from a sage's curse) or arrange for reading of scriptures (like Gokarna did for his brother, Dhundhakāri, a debauch brāhmin who was in form of a vampire. Gokarna asked Sage Shukdeva to recite SrimadBhāgawatham). :D

The transmigrants have a personality in main-line 'advaita' till they wipe out their karma balance when they will merge with Brahman/super soul.
* In what I believe of 'advaita' there is no soul or God, but I am a special nut-case.
Thank you for that explanation. Clearly, I've got some thinking and research to do...
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
While I can't address the Hindu idea, many Westerners (and maybe even Easterners, and most likely many indigenous peoples as well) think of the human soul/spirit as a singular thing, and it moves as one unit the state of living to an afterlife. There are many indigenous peoples (but it will take me some time to dig up references)--but more importantly to me, ME--who consider that we are not singular, and that some parts may completely end at death, other parts may hang around family and descendants for awhile or forever, and still other parts may go on to be reincarnated/transmigrated, and still other parts may do other things.
Yes, I've studied the concept of soul in North America, China, Africa, ancient Greece and Egypt, etc. As I understand it, most consider that there is a soul that is the real you and that is the one that proceeds to an afterlife. Thus the Inuit have the iñuusiq which animates the body and disperses after death, the iḷitqusiq which is the self and has an afterlife, and the atiq which seems close to the idea of the persona and which can be inherited. That sort of analysis makes sense to me, but it's difficult to see how there can be two "real me"s.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Yes, I've studied the concept of soul in North America, China, Africa, ancient Greece and Egypt, etc. As I understand it, most consider that there is a soul that is the real you and that is the one that proceeds to an afterlife. Thus the Inuit have the iñuusiq which animates the body and disperses after death, the iḷitqusiq which is the self and has an afterlife, and the atiq which seems close to the idea of the persona and which can be inherited. That sort of analysis makes sense to me, but it's difficult to see how there can be two "real me"s.
Interesting; this is similar to many of the other indigenous descriptions I've come across. My question: why can't there be several "parallel" parts that make up the iliqusiq, and perhaps even several parallel parts that make up the atiq? Parts that do similar, overlapping, or even different things in our bodies, and once the body dies, may do different things.

Metaphorically, these might be likened to the different organs and tissues in the body. Or, like images--if one takes an image and removes from view most of the pixels, there still remains an image with a portion of the information/detail removed; for example, one can open up a photo-processing software and separate out the red, yellow, blue, black, etc. colors--each image is still (usually) recognizable, but only includes part of the information of the whole.

I do remember seeing in a number of traditions that portions of a person's soul/spirit can get lost or be stolen, and the individual continues to function--although sick--until it is recovered through ritual of some sort (such as intervention of a shaman). While the Inuit and many others have two or three, some have many more, although I think the largest number I've ever heard was nine.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Even in Hinduism there are various divisions (Koshas - sort of rooms within rooms). Then, there are subdivisions, but that is for scholars to debate

"The five sheaths (pancha-kosas) are described in the Taittiriya Upanishad. From gross to fine they are: Annamaya kosha, "foodstuff" sheath (Anna), Pranamaya kosha, "energy" sheath (Prana/apana), Manomaya kosha "mind-stuff" sheath (Manas), Vijnanamaya kosha, "wisdom" sheath (Vijnana), Anandamaya kosha, "bliss" sheath (Ananda)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosha
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Even in Hinduism there are various divisions (Koshas - sort of rooms within rooms). Then, there are subdivisions, but that is for scholars to debate

"The five sheaths (pancha-kosas) are described in the Taittiriya Upanishad. From gross to fine they are: Annamaya kosha, "foodstuff" sheath (Anna), Pranamaya kosha, "energy" sheath (Prana/apana), Manomaya kosha "mind-stuff" sheath (Manas), Vijnanamaya kosha, "wisdom" sheath (Vijnana), Anandamaya kosha, "bliss" sheath (Ananda)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosha
Okay! Shrek was right...ogres (and people, and donkeys) are like onions...:p
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
David, I do not believe in reincarnation (and so many other things, God, soul, heaven, hell, etc., being an atheist Hindu). These rituals are for the satisfaction of living and not anything for the dead except their remembrance. It is gratifying to think that someone will remember me as I remember my ancestors even after I am not there. A matter of love and respect..

Is it genually understood in Hindu that there is reincarntion?

If so, would there be a difference between how you relate in ritual to your loved one as an athiest or does the being an "atheist" irrelevant when Hindu gather to pay respects to their departed?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Yes, nearly all Hindus believe in reincarnation and therefore God (someone must be controlling it - people like me are exceptions only). Yes, what I do is irrelevant to Hindus who gather at various places of pilgrimage and arrange for rituals in memory of their ancestors. It is a huge industry. Entire towns depend on that (Gaya for example) from times immemorial. Each community has a particular priest, who has the record of the visits of the family member and who was accompanying them and even their signatures or thumb impressions spanning over generations and centuries. Also mentioned is the Dakshina (remuneration, gift) that the person gave them. It is like church records.

Holiest places in India for performing rituals for ancestors (Shraddha): Gaya, Dwarika, Rishikesh, Haridwar, Allahabad, Kalighat, Puri, Nashik, Varanasi, Kedarnath, Deoghar, Rameshwaram, Pushkar, Gokarna, Ganga Sagar (where rive Ganges merges with sea). These places have mythological reasons which make them special.

Shradha-Paksha-2015.jpg

http://blog.onlineprasad.com/the-holiest-locations-for-performing-pitru-paksha-shradh-ceremony/
 
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