Angry/Loving god

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm generalizing on purpose

A believer believes god exists and calls him loving
A non-believer doesn't believe god exists and calls him inhuman

If someone believed in god and said god is loving, I'd understand their belief even though I disagree with it.

If someone didn't believe god exist and called it inhuman, how would I know whether this someone is right or wrong when he believes god doesn't exist to begin with?

Wouldn't it make sense to make a good or bad claim about god by first believing he exists in order for that claim to be relevant?

Believers know god is loving by their experience not just from scripture

How do non-believers know god is inhuman unless they are just going by scripture?

 

[John53]

I'm generalizing on purpose

A believer believes god exists and calls him loving
A non-believer doesn't believe god exists and calls him inhuman

If someone believed in god and said god is loving, I'd understand their belief even though I disagree with it.

If someone didn't believe god exist and called it inhuman, how would I know whether this someone is right or wrong when he believes god doesn't exist to begin with?

Wouldn't it make sense to make a good or bad claim about god by first believing he exists in order for that claim to be relevant?

Believers know god is loving by their experience not just from scripture

How do non-believers know god is inhuman unless they are just going by scripture?

I think you misunderstand what is being said. Nobody can know if a God or Gods exist.

From a non believer it's usually a hypothetical... eg if God exists then he must be evil to allow children to be abused.

 

[Skwim]

I'm generalizing on purpose

A believer believes god exists and calls him loving
A non-believer doesn't believe god exists and calls him inhuman

Not quite. A non-believer doesn't believe god exists and calls him unsubstantiated.

If someone didn't believe god exist and called it inhuman, how would I know whether this someone is right or wrong when he believes god doesn't exist to begin with?

Which is why people who don't believe in god don't call him inhuman.

Wouldn't it make sense to make a good or bad claim about god by first believing he exists in order for that claim to be relevant?

Sounds good to me.

Believers know god is loving by their experience not just from scripture

Believers may believe god is loving by their experience not just from scripture

How do non-believers know god is inhuman unless they are just going by scripture?

They don't. You're just saying they do. BIG difference.

.

 

[oldbadger]

I'm generalizing on purpose

How do non-believers know god is inhuman unless they are just going by scripture?

I believe in a detached God, neither loving nor hating.
But I expect that most atheists would be offended if anybody presumed that they thought of God as anything at all.

In debate I notice that some atheists use the word 'IF', if there is a God then it surely is ....... whatever.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Not quite. A non-believer doesn't believe god exists and calls him unsubstantiated.


Which is why people who don't believe in god don't call him inhuman.


Sounds good to me.


Believers may believe god is loving by their experience not just from scripture



They don't. You're just saying they do. BIG difference.

.

You haven't heard non-believers say god is evil, inhuman, bad, murderer, killer, etc???

Many believers say he's the opposite; but they believe he exists. I was wondering how it was logical saying god is this or that when the person speaking says they believe god does not exist.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I believe in a detached God, neither loving nor hating.
But I expect that most atheists would be offended if anybody presumed that they thought of God as anything at all.

In debate I notice that some atheists use the word 'IF', if there is a God then it surely is ....... whatever.

I actually don't see the If. I think the If depends on the person speaking of god had a prior relationship with god before they didn't believe anymore. The language just stuck? I guess.

 

[Aupmanyav]

How do non-believers know god is inhuman unless they are just going by scripture?

Non-believers know that God \ Gods \ Goddesses are imaginary. One can ascribe any and all kinds of attributes to them. The non-believers have no interest in what the scriptures of believers say, which contain false and tall stories.
Non-believers do say that to believe in an all-loving \ kind God would be false because of what we see in the world. In their scriptures also, their God comes out as very jealous and cruel being, ready to inflict unthinkable and worst kind of punishment to those who do not believe in him or his supposed prophets \ sons \ messengers \ manifestations \ mahdis.

Yeah, most non-believers were told these God stories in their childhood and have out-grown them. Only few people have had non-believing parents.

 

[Skwim]

You haven't heard non-believers say god is evil, inhuman, bad, murderer, killer, etc???

Not a non-believer as you described in the OP, essentially an atheist. All the atheists I've encountered wouldn't give god any characteristics. If anything, they might argue the characteristics of a given god, like the god of Abraham, but only within the context of the Biblical scripture.

Many believers say he's the opposite; but they believe he exists. I was wondering how it was logical saying god is this or that when the person speaking says they believe god does not exist.

It wouldn't be logical at all.

.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I'm generalizing on purpose

A believer believes god exists and calls him loving
A non-believer doesn't believe god exists and calls him inhuman

If someone believed in god and said god is loving, I'd understand their belief even though I disagree with it.

If someone didn't believe god exist and called it inhuman, how would I know whether this someone is right or wrong when he believes god doesn't exist to begin with?

Wouldn't it make sense to make a good or bad claim about god by first believing he exists in order for that claim to be relevant?

Believers know God is loving by their experience not just from scripture

How do non-believers know god is inhuman unless they are just going by scripture?

In my understanding.
First, a person must be able to understand what God is, but the way it is described in scriptures is not exactly correct, because it is described with human words and not from divine words.
To only believe in a god is not enough to understand, one must cultivate our mind to gain higher spiritual wisdom, meaning to gain wisdom that is closer to what a god will have, and that can only be done by cultivating a spiritual path that holds the teaching of that God or Buddha one is following
God is not a person in human form God is similar to energy and energy is matter and consciousness. So this is why spiritual scripture says that a God is omnipresent and everywhere because they are of energy, matter, and consciousness.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Not a non-believer as you described in the OP, essentially an atheist. All the atheists I've encountered wouldn't give god any characteristics. If anything, they might argue the characteristics of a given god, like the god of Abraham, but only within the context of the Biblical scripture.


It wouldn't be logical at all.

.

I see it all the time. A lot (I generalized OP on purpose) of non-believers can describe god from being a monster to "why would I believe in God when he murderers children and condones slaves."

Usually I hear the slaves and children a lot. It's actually a reason some people don't believe in God. They associate it with bad characteristics.

I'm not sure how they know this. But they used to be Christian so I assume many "felt the holy spirit" before but rejected it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Non-believers know that God \ Gods \ Goddesses are imaginary. One can ascribe any and all kinds of attributes to them. The non-believers have no interest in what the scriptures of believers say, which contain false and tall stories.
Non-believers do say that to believe in an all-loving \ kind God would be false because of what we see in the world. In their scriptures also, their God comes out as very jealous and cruel being, ready to inflict unthinkable and worst kind of punishment to those who do not believe in him or his supposed prophets \ sons \ messengers \ manifestations \ mahdis.

Yeah, most non-believers were told these God stories in their childhood and have out-grown them. Only few people have had non-believing parents.

If a nonbeliever became Christian would NB peer think he is worshiping a god of hate (one trait I hear) even though the convert knows god is love?

You think hating the Christian god is bad, quran god got it worse.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Believing or not believing is a personal matter. There are so many believers. So, one more changing sides will not matter. There will be traffic from the believing kind to non-believing kind also. This religion or that religion, they are all the same to me in this respect. The only difference is that Hinduism in spite of being a majorly believing religion, leaves space for the non-believers.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

In my understanding.
First, a person must be able to understand what God is, but the way it is described in scriptures is not exactly correct, because it is described with human words and not from divine words.

I can see that. Different scripture define the god(s) in different ways. To tell you honestly, when I read the bible it's not that, I don't have a huge connection with it for or against to decide whether the god of the bible is good (he is love) or bad (he is a murderer). I hear both, and read both, so whose to decide?

To only believe in a god is not enough to understand, one must cultivate our mind to gain higher spiritual wisdom, meaning to gain wisdom that is closer to what a god will have, and that can only be done by cultivating a spiritual path that holds the teaching of that God or Buddha one is following

God is not a person in human form God is similar to energy and energy is matter and consciousness. So this is why spiritual scripture says that a God is omnipresent and everywhere because they are of energy, matter, and consciousness.

Tell me, why does god need to be mystic and not "mundane" to be god?

Similar context to what I read in a popular Zen book: In a beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in a expert's mind, there are few.

Is there spiritual wisdom in the mundane?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Believing or not believing is a personal matter. There are so many believers. So, one more changing sides will not matter. There will be traffic from the believing kind to non-believing kind also. This religion or that religion, l they are all the same to me in this respect. The only difference is that Hinduism in spite of being a majorly believing religion, leaves space for the non-believers.

I'm jealous

 

[Spirit of Light]

I can see that. Different scripture define the god(s) in different ways. To tell you honestly, when I read the bible it's not that, I don't have a huge connection with it for or against to decide whether the god of the bible is good (he is love) or bad (he is a murderer). I hear both, and read both, so whose to decide?



Tell me, why does god need to be mystic and not "mundane" to be god?

Similar context to what I read in a popular Zen book: In a beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in a expert's mind, there are few.

Is there spiritual wisdom in the mundane?

Because the spiritual realm is not mundane only our human realm is mundane, everything else is spiritual and none physical (energy and matter)
if you see a triangle and think of the widest bottom as human mundane realm and the very tiny tip on the top as the highest spiritual wisdom you get the point of what you said
often you will find the ultimate truth to look almost opposite of what you imagine it to be.
In Falun Gong, we find Zhen Shan Ren (Truthfulness, Compassion, and forbearance) as the ultimate truth, but even in each of them we find all of them together, so Truthfulness contains both compassion and forbearance too.
And everything that is not containing this are not seen as truth or good.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I'm jealous

And I consider myself fortunate. So many Hindus in this forum and many others have tried to prove me wrong, but none has succeeded.

"Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation?
The Gods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?"
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN CXXIX. Creation.

"What is the origin of this world?
Space, said he. Verily, all things here arise out of space. They disappear back into space, for space alone is greater than these, space is the final goal.
This is the most excellent Udgita (song). This is endless. The most excellent is his, the most excellent worlds does he win, who, knowing it thus, reveres the most excellent Udgita (song)."
- Chandogya Upanishad 1.9.1-1.9.2

 

[Jesuslightoftheworld]

I'm generalizing on purpose

A believer believes god exists and calls him loving
A non-believer doesn't believe god exists and calls him inhuman

If someone believed in god and said god is loving, I'd understand their belief even though I disagree with it.

If someone didn't believe god exist and called it inhuman, how would I know whether this someone is right or wrong when he believes god doesn't exist to begin with?

Wouldn't it make sense to make a good or bad claim about god by first believing he exists in order for that claim to be relevant?

Believers know god is loving by their experience not just from scripture

How do non-believers know god is inhuman unless they are just going by scripture?

I agree that anyone knows for sure that God exists. But,

I think you misunderstand what is being said. Nobody can know if a God or Gods exist.

From a non believer it's usually a hypothetical... eg if God exists then he must be evil to allow children to be abused.

I agree that no one knows that God exists. That would defeat the purpose of faith. But to say that God is evil because he allows pain and suffering is something I don’t believe. Bad things happen because of sin not because of God. I believe that God created the laws of nature and the universe also governed over himself and let circumstances play out in natural consequences. That’s the biggest question of all; if God is loving, why does He let bad things happen? We will never know nor can we conceive it. I believe God intervenes at times but I don’t think he is cruel. He gets angry and jealous. But I think He is sad and heartbroken to watch what people do to other people.

Please read lyrics to one of my favorite songs that I think is fitting. It’s called The Hurt and the Healer by Mercy Me.


Why?
The question that is never far away
The healing doesn't come from being explained
Jesus please don't let this go in vain
You're all I have
All that remains

So here I am
What's left of me
Where glory meets my suffering

I'm alive
Even though a part of me has died
You take my heart and breathe it back to life
I fall into Your arms open wide
When the hurt and the healer collide

Breathe
Sometimes I feel it's all that I can do
Pain so deep that I can hardly move
Just keep my eyes completely fixed on You
Lord take hold and pull me through

So here I am
What's left of me
Where glory meets my suffering

I'm alive
Even though a part of me has died
You take my heart and breathe it back to life
I fall into your arms open wide
When the hurt and the healer collide

It's the moment when humanity
Is overcome by majesty
When grace is ushered in for good
And all our scars are understood
When mercy takes it's rightful place
And all these questions fade away
When out of the weakness we must bow
And hear You say "It's over now"

I'm alive
Even though a part of me has died
You take this heart and breathe it back to life
I fall into your arms open wide
When The hurt and the healer collide

[x2:]
Jesus come and break my fear
Wake my heart and take my tears
Find Your glory even here
When the hurt and the healer collide

Jesus come and break my fear
Wake my heart and take my tears
And find Your glory even here

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I agree that anyone knows for sure that God exists. But,


I agree that no one knows that God exists. That would defeat the purpose of faith. But to say that God is evil because he allows pain and suffering is something I don’t believe. Bad things happen because of sin not because of God. I believe that God created the laws of nature and the universe also governed over himself and let circumstances play out in natural consequences. That’s the biggest question of all; if God is loving, why does He let bad things happen? We will never know nor can we conceive it. I believe God intervenes at times but I don’t think he is cruel. He gets angry and jealous. But I think He is sad and heartbroken to watch what people do to other people.

Please read lyrics to one of my favorite songs that I think is fitting. It’s called The Hurt and the Healer by Mercy Me.


Why?
The question that is never far away
The healing doesn't come from being explained
Jesus please don't let this go in vain
You're all I have
All that remains

So here I am
What's left of me
Where glory meets my suffering

I'm alive
Even though a part of me has died
You take my heart and breathe it back to life
I fall into Your arms open wide
When the hurt and the healer collide

Breathe
Sometimes I feel it's all that I can do
Pain so deep that I can hardly move
Just keep my eyes completely fixed on You
Lord take hold and pull me through

So here I am
What's left of me
Where glory meets my suffering

I'm alive
Even though a part of me has died
You take my heart and breathe it back to life
I fall into your arms open wide
When the hurt and the healer collide

It's the moment when humanity
Is overcome by majesty
When grace is ushered in for good
And all our scars are understood
When mercy takes it's rightful place
And all these questions fade away
When out of the weakness we must bow
And hear You say "It's over now"

I'm alive
Even though a part of me has died
You take this heart and breathe it back to life
I fall into your arms open wide
When The hurt and the healer collide

[x2:]
Jesus come and break my fear
Wake my heart and take my tears
Find Your glory even here
When the hurt and the healer collide

Jesus come and break my fear
Wake my heart and take my tears
And find Your glory even here

Hmm. The idea is that those who don't believe god exists still say that he is angry and allows suffering. I don't see how that makes sense when god doesn't exist in order to make that claim. One argument is that non-believers are using hypothetical "if god exists, he is mean..." Another argument is that non-believers don't say this to begin with (it wouldn't make sense). Online I "hear" both non-believers and believers talk about god as if he exists whether in theory or fact all the time. Most of the time I think the former the results of indoctrination and the latter limitation seeing and acknowledging other people's perspectives without challenging them wrong.

I'm not quite sure "how" god is loving (or god is of hate). Can you explain that?

God loves me-God loves me is fine to the person who believes it, but not to those who don't.

Other question. Would you want faith god exists or certainty; and, why one over another?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Because the spiritual realm is not mundane only our human realm is mundane, everything else is spiritual and none physical (energy and matter)
if you see a triangle and think of the widest bottom as human mundane realm and the very tiny tip on the top as the highest spiritual wisdom you get the point of what you said
often you will find the ultimate truth to look almost opposite of what you imagine it to be.
In Falun Gong, we find Zhen Shan Ren (Truthfulness, Compassion, and forbearance) as the ultimate truth, but even in each of them we find all of them together, so Truthfulness contains both compassion and forbearance too.
And everything that is not containing this are not seen as truth or good.

Why the duality of spiritual and mundane?

To me (in my opinion) it's like those who do this aren't appreciating and grateful that all things are spiritual regardless if it's our human knowledge or spiritual knowledge. If anything, they should be inseparable. Life involves both and has no division and discrimination between the two sides.

For example, compassion for a loved one may be acknowledged by words but sometimes it's just as strong by touch. Sometimes you can touch someone but if there is no full communication, they are left wondering the verbal-connection of that touch/mirrored confirmation. Then you have people who speak through visual language and touch without words. If the actual touch is mundane, how would they spiritually communicate love?

I think that's probably why I'm not too spiritual. When I put an aspect of life from love and compassion to the Eucharist or Buddha statue, I'm causing duality. While it's embedded in my culture I always felt uncomfortable about it.