Animism

[painted wolf]

No way... now that you're here we can really get this party started! :woohoo:

wa:do

 

[blackout]

It was someone on this forum, maybe a couple people,
who suggested that maybe I was an animist,
or that it might interest me,
on account of things I've expressed in my posts.

TBH, my understanding of animism is somewhat sketchy,
but in the way that I apply it to my Own insights
regarding the nature/'spirit' of the things/world around me, it seems to fit.

I would like to understand traditions of animism,
with more depth/accuracy though,
if anyone has any good, safe links.

This seems like a good thing for me to come to a more
personally refined understanding of right now.

 

[Quintessence]

'Tis my general understanding that animism at its core is simply seeing all things as "persons" or ensouled. That tree in your yard is not just a tree, it has its own individual wants and needs and a "consciousness" in a manner of speaking. I can't think of anything to read right now that isn't full of ethnocentric biases.

 

[blackout]

'Tis my general understanding that animism at its core is simply seeing all things as "persons" or ensouled. That tree in your yard is not just a tree, it has its own individual wants and needs and a "consciousness" in a manner of speaking. I can't think of anything to read right now that isn't full of ethnocentric biases.

Yeah. I rather suspect my version of animism is more of a philosophical type,
hinging more around philosophical typology.
But I'm good with it all the same. On some level I like the idea of it.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I too think I have always had animistic tendencies, even during my rationalist-deductivist phase. But certainly since my early teens. I've more fully embraced this in the past decade or so.

While I see a philosophical side to this, for me it is primarily a matter of experience, and I think that is perhaps why it is considered a "primitive" belief system. In many cultures, it appears to me to often revolve around individual experience and relationship with spirit--and thus there is not much in the line of theology or written records, beliefs or rituals. Plus, in my experience, you don't learn a rote ritual, the spirits teach you the ritual for YOU.

Everything is/has spirit, and deserves due respect and care. As such, it's more about a way of living and responding to everything than it is about recognizing a single entity that deserves our attention and respect--which is what our more formal religions seem to be about.

My experience and understanding is that some spirits seem to like humans and may interact and try to help us, others seem to dislike us and may interact and try to hinder/harm us, and the vast majority seem to be largely indifferent to us.

 

[painted wolf]

It was someone on this forum, maybe a couple people,
who suggested that maybe I was an animist,
or that it might interest me,
on account of things I've expressed in my posts.

TBH, my understanding of animism is somewhat sketchy,
but in the way that I apply it to my Own insights
regarding the nature/'spirit' of the things/world around me, it seems to fit.

I would like to understand traditions of animism,
with more depth/accuracy though,
if anyone has any good, safe links.

This seems like a good thing for me to come to a more
personally refined understanding of right now.

It doesn't go into much depth... but it will give you a sense of the vast diversity in Animism.
Animism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

wa:do

 

[Sylvan]

Indeed I think making definitive statements about what is or is not animism and trying to find some general theology for it is thinking about it the wrong way. In many of the forms in which it has survived today it readily syncretizes and accepts novel transitions, as the spirits lead. But we should also be careful not to pull a Michael Harner and try to essentialize all of these traditions together into some kind of "core shamanism" model or anything else.

Everything is/has spirit, and deserves due respect and care. As such, it's more about a way of living and responding to everything than it is about recognizing a single entity that deserves our attention and respect--which is what our more formal religions seem to be about.

My experience and understanding is that some spirits seem to like humans and may interact and try to help us, others seem to dislike us and may interact and try to hinder/harm us, and the vast majority seem to be largely indifferent to us.

Indeed and I would add to this for me personally the pursuit and study of what I would call magic is very much the "science" of animism, vis a vis the spirit world. Not that animistic people didn't practice regular sciences as we know them today.

Animist religions tend not to have written scriptures, higher levels of privacy and low/non-existent levels of proselytizing. So it's much harder to study.

This really can't be overstated. I studied for years any available written anthropological material on a particular African Diasporic spirit working tradition. I was using the magic I had studied as a youngster all the while but, out of a combination of caution and respect, didn't want to experiment with any of the material regarding that tradition without initiated guidance. Which would be quite difficult to find given my geographical location. Strangely enough the spirits found their way to me anyways, and even after being given the first baby steps of initiation into this tradition I can say with certainty that most anthropological books on this subject can be safely tossed in the bin. Now in order to find out more I have to make long phone calls while scribbling notes and planning some vacation time to NYC, Brazil, etc. A lot of this stuff either can't or shouldn't be written down for public consumption.

And as for theology. I have pretty complex beliefs about the nature of the universe/spirits/reality but I will never have a theology. I don't think it ever did anyone any good, and its not going to start doing it now. Imo, obviously. I would like to know why animists should have a theology. What are the pros?

 

[Quintessence]

And as for theology. I have pretty complex beliefs about the nature of the universe/spirits/reality but I will never have a theology. I don't think it ever did anyone any good, and its not going to start doing it now. Imo, obviously. I would like to know why animists should have a theology. What are the pros?

How are you defining theology? I suspect I was using the term in a looser sense than you might be. I was using the term to loosely denote examination of one's beliefs about deity/spirit/sacred. Animism certainly involves beliefs about deity/spirit/sacred, so it has a theology, but it is definitely not what is conventionally described by Western (usually monotheistic) theologians.

 

[DreadFish]

I also consider myself animist.

I think that I never really became animist or anything, but since I was a child, I always sort of projected some sort of person-hood into natural objects, as well as man-made ones, or just assumed they were alive too. Later I "found" animism and thought, "well, sounds like im animist," so I started calling myself an animist. I assume all natural bodies to have some sort of consciousness in it, and likewise, some man-made objects can also have a spirit inhabiting them (for one reason or another).

 

[Sylvan]

How are you defining theology? I suspect I was using the term in a looser sense than you might be. I was using the term to loosely denote examination of one's beliefs about deity/spirit/sacred.

You may be right. Theology for me necessarily involves religious truths and the determination of such. Its not that I think there isn't a truth, but rather that trying to determine such universally is unnecessary. And lends itself to the support of the kind of power dynamics which have historically led to the cultural conquests, colonialisms, appropriations, and homogenizations which are eliminating animist and other marginal religious traditions. I wish others well in this endeavor, I just don't have the patience for it anymore. I know what I have seen and felt and heard and have a crew of others who see and feel and hear things and don't feel the need for validation from whomever might be the most semantically minded in the canon of published literature about whatever things we might be seeing, feeling, and hearing.

Theology is the systematic and rational study of religion and its influences and of the nature of religious truths, or the learned profession acquired by completing specialized training in religious studies

 

[Quintessence]

Determination of religious truths (the plural there is important, I think) doesn't have to be rigid, though. I think there's a tendency for that kind of thinking in the circles where the term "theology" is most often applied (e.g. Christianity), but outside of that it seems less of a focus. I guess I don't see it so much as validation as figuring out what your truths and answers are. If you want to play litmus-test with others, great. I don't tend to bother with that either, because the map is not the territory.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Determination of religious truths (the plural there is important, I think) doesn't have to be rigid, though. I think there's a tendency for that kind of thinking in the circles where the term "theology" is most often applied (e.g. Christianity), but outside of that it seems less of a focus. I guess I don't see it so much as validation as figuring out what your truths and answers are. If you want to play litmus-test with others, great. I don't tend to bother with that either, because the map is not the territory.

well, I for one look for clarification or understanding, all the time proceeding with the recognition that I'm just a little guy in a very big universe, and therefore am probably not capable of comprehending all truths. Thus, I have no problem with a scientific approach to understanding (that is, observation and testing), but doubt that my or anyone else's models of "truth" are anywhere near complete or universal.

I don't expect my understanding to apply or be used by anyone else, of course.

 

[Sylvan]

I very much agree with everything you both said. Particularly the attitude implicit in that last sentence. I just think the word theology can maybe be left to theologians at this point. Every attempt I've ever seen at "pagan theology", for example, left me cold. Not that I necessarily had any serious disagreement with its tenets persay. But documents like that always seem more obligatory than inspirational. They are for giving your parents when they think you're worshiping satan.

In my opinion the field of religious studies as unified with theology should be divided into two disciplines with very separate fields of influence. One the field of theologians, philosophers, and truth-seekers. The other of actual fact collectors like anthropologists, sociologists, psychologists, etc.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I very much agree with everything you both said. Particularly the attitude implicit in that last sentence. I just think the word theology can maybe be left to theologians at this point. Every attempt I've ever seen at "pagan theology", for example, left me cold. Not that I necessarily had any serious disagreement with its tenets persay. But documents like that always seem more obligatory than inspirational. They are for giving your parents when they think you're worshiping satan.

In my opinion the field of religious studies as unified with theology should be divided into two disciplines with very separate fields of influence. One the field of theologians, philosophers, and truth-seekers. The other of actual fact collectors like anthropologists, sociologists, psychologists, etc.

I agree with that, sylvan! I'm personally more interested in hearing people's stories of what they have experienced, etc., rather than what they think it means or how it fits into some system of belief.

Not that I don't like the other discussions, but for me, that's a "beer and pizza" discussion.

 

[Quintessence]

I'd recommend folks read Michael York's "Pagan Theology" book. It is possible to outline some good general patterns of what Pagan theology can mean. I built up a decent list of them based on his work and others I've read over the years. It's understood as a non-dogmatic, flexible list, though.

 

[Sylvan]

I'll check it out*. But since you seem to have a list, answer my question. What are the pros to having a theology of "animism" generally? If you go among elders of all these different traditions I doubt you will find them coming to concise agreement on these details. Any such effort would be better spent saving these traditions from annihilation through government oppression or climate change.

* I have to say from the reviews it seems to be focused heavy on validation. Exactly why I'm moving away from the idea of theology.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I'd recommend folks read Michael York's "Pagan Theology" book. It is possible to outline some good general patterns of what Pagan theology can mean. I built up a decent list of them based on his work and others I've read over the years. It's understood as a non-dogmatic, flexible list, though.

would you be willing to share your list. It could lead to productive discussion.

or chaotic conflict.

I often entertain either.

 

[Quintessence]

Perhaps I should put the list up in another thread entirely, since the subject transcends the subject of animism? I've been a bit busy lately, though, so I might not get to it immediately since it will take some time to set up.

I'd like to address the question on animistic theology, but I'm not sure I'm entirely clear on how we are defining theology. It's one of those terms that can be ambiguous, and it's my understanding that animism is typically embedded within a theology to begin with. >_<

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Perhaps I should put the list up in another thread entirely, since the subject transcends the subject of animism? I've been a bit busy lately, though, so I might not get to it immediately since it will take some time to set up.

I'd like to address the question on animistic theology, but I'm not sure I'm entirely clear on how we are defining theology. It's one of those terms that can be ambiguous, and it's my understanding that animism is typically embedded within a theology to begin with. >_<

Well, I would say that animism is embedded into a broader way of life in which the recognition and respect for other spirits is central.

 

[painted wolf]

I would say a theology is a socio-cultural set of unifying spiritual ideals, concepts and stories.

Though, I suppose that individuals can develop their own theology as well.

wa:do