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Annoying proselytizing (and preaching)

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
I understand the bible OT paints the Abrahamic god as a really nasty piece of work. Which is part is of what lead me to atheism.

According to the Bible, a woman who was raped was forced to marry her rapist (Deuteronomy 22:28–29), and God's people delighted in smashing infants' heads against rocks (Psalm 137:9). Furthermore, God commanded the Israelites to wipe the Amalekites off the face of the earth, killing every man, woman, child, newborn, and animal, and destroying everything that belonged to them (1 Samuel 15:3), and he commanded his "chosen people" to kill the entire populace of other nations in order to take their land (Deuteronomy 20:16–18). God was also irrationally angry and killed every living creature, eradicating the entire human race (aside from Noah and his family) in a global flood (Genesis 6:17), thus committing worldwide genocide. And according to the Bible, this allegedly "all-knowing" and "all-powerful" God repopulated the world with more fallible human beings like the ones he had previously created before he had a cosmic meltdown and drowned every living thing in a global flood. Even after God felt regret for creating humanity, the animals, every creeping thing on the ground, and the birds in the air (Genesis 6:6-7), he was still incapable of learning from his own mistakes.

If God is all-powerful and all-knowing, shouldn't he know better? There are other scriptures that mention other regrets that God has in addition to his regret over creating humanity, all animals, and birds (1 Samuel 15:11; 2 Samuel 24:16; Jeremiah 42:10). The Bible also mentions God changing his mind about the disasters he intended to punish his people with as retribution for their sins (Jeremiah 26:13, 1 Chronicles 21:15, Joel 2:13). If God is real, then it seems to me that he is mentally unstable and a vicious sadistic psychopath.
 
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BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I'm speaking from the perspective of a former evangelical Christian who understands how the game of evangelism is played. Being a former Christian appears to have put a target on my back because whenever some Christians learn that I am no longer a Christian, they seem to resort to immediately threatening me with God's wrath and hellfire. I recently encountered a situation in which several Christians accused me of being a witch and tried to learn personal information about me in order to confront me (read here). Nothing occurred because these Christians were unable to find out any information about me that would have allowed them to confront me.

As a former evangelical Christian, I know that Christians feel compelled to spread the gospel and convert nonbelievers to Christianity, but now that I'm on the opposite side, I find evangelizing by Christians to be quite annoying. It also makes me feel ashamed because it reminds me that I was once overbearing with other non-Christians and even with Christians who didn't believe exactly as I did. I have even apologized to some of these people since I left Christianity. I know that there are several other former Christians on RF, so I was wondering if they've also been confronted by Christians about no longer being a Christian and how they handled it. If you are not an ex-Christian but you've been preached at and coerced by Christians to convert to Christianity, then how did you handle the situation?

I wouldn't resort to hellfire with you, I would explore (my assumption) that you had religion, not relationship.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
If God is all-powerful and all-knowing, shouldn't he know better?

Could it be your OP is motivated by your own clash with Faith?

God being all knowing and all powerful would mean that the Messages are given to suit our capacity.

So when we look back at more ancient messages, we can see that humanity has evolved spiritually and sees the action's of the past are no longer applicable.

But I ask, why do we still oppress others, why do we still have predudices, why do we still war?

I personally see that God has asked us to Love each other and warned in graphic detail as to what happens when we do not.

Regards Tony
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
Could it be your OP is motivated by your own clash with Faith?

I explained in my OP that I find evangelizing (proselytizing and preaching) by Christians to be annoying, and I explained why. So yes, my OP is motivated by my own clash with Christianity. I also mentioned in my OP that I'm speaking from the perspective of a former Christian. And thank you for sharing your personal perspective on the subject. I appreciate you being respectful in your replies.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
I understand your feelings. As a Jew, I get targeted all the time by Christians. I realize that it is just a part of their religion to want to share their gospel, but honestly, they aren't saying anything that I haven't heard a thousand times and am sick of.

I used to be on some Christian message boards in the past, and every now and then, I would come across Christians who expressed absolute disdain for Jews, which struck me as odd given that Jesus was a Jew and the first Christians were Jews. But I have also come across other Christians who expressed their respect for Jews, and they usually talked about wanting to convert Jews to Christianity.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I know that there are several other former Christians on RF, so I was wondering if they've also been confronted by Christians about no longer being a Christian and how they handled it.

Not the way you were, but this comes up on RF frequently. I'm often asked to explain my religious experience that led to me leaving Christianity. I don't even have to write it out anymore - I just go to my RF page where I store the most useful text for reposting. Not surprisingly, I'm not interested in opinions of what they think I did wrong or how my faith was inferior, and don't defer to their presumed expertise, so there's really no discussion after that.

I have outperformed many Christians who have attempted to preach at me.

I think all unbelievers outperform the believers when it comes to understanding what Christianity is and what its scriptures say, especially former Christians. And that's much of the fun of these discussions. There are a whole host of comments that never get a response.

An acquaintance from another forum is a strega witch. Out shopping one day her amulet became visible. The checkout assistant asked what it was, she explained. Several days later she was at work, the checkout assistant and a couple of friends broke into her home, armed, presumably to kill the witch. Her dog did what dogs do to protect the home and was shot. Luckily she was not home or no doubt would have suffered the same fate.

I remember her. Kaitlin, right? Wasn't her screen name The Strega Kaitlin? I think the dog was named Marlowe.

I've always been mystified by this. In my experience, everyone, and I mean everyone, is turned off by overt attempts to convert them. It is particularly idiotic to threaten you with retribution from something that you don't believe in. I mean, how could that possibly be an effective strategy? It's just unimaginably stupid.

But isn't that always the way with proselytizers? How about the creationists that think that they will convince scientifically literate people that evolution didn't occur with zero understanding of the science? Or those who post proofs of God's existence that demonstrate that they have no such thing.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Atheist proselytize on this site all the time but they get a pass on that?

Atheists generally don't care what others believe. Here's one of those pre-fab comments I was referring to above. I post something like this so often that I just save it to copy-and-paste:

"Who's trying to convert theists? I never even think about or discuss the matter except when a theists is proselytizing, and even then I'm not trying to change his mind, just to tell him why I don't think that way. That would be a waste of time not only because it would be impossible to make any headway against a faith-based confirmation bias, but because it really doesn't matter. If my neighbor wants to dance around a tree in his back yard at midnight baying at the full moon while shaking a stick with a bloody chicken claw nailed to it in order to center himself and give his like meaning, that's fine, as long as he keeps the noise down."

How do you "coerce" someone into Christianity?

A good way is to scare them with threats of hellfire, especially if you can get to them young. Also, by teaching them that atheism is a character defect (scripture reveals that not one does good), or that atheists have no inner life, and that God really, really, REALLY dislikes unbelievers.

Only knowing what they have been told to believe with no ability to separate themselves from the messages.

Whose fault is that? Who did that to them? Who dropped a Bible in their playpen and lauded uncritical thought (faith) as virtue while demeaning the "wisdom of men"?

They were not taught properly.

Whose fault is that?

I do not believe a God who is love would ever torture anyone forever or even a little.

Me neither, and that is part of why I am not a Christian. My guess is that you sanitized hell theology, which is a popular trend. The church understands that it's hemorrhaging adherents, tithes, and cultural hegemony. It sees the trends in the religious surveys and the closing churches, and realizes that it has to make its product more appealing to younger people who question the church's relevance, and who find its hell theology off-putting, so they take the literal torture out as you are doing.

One I see often apart from there being no hell is that God doesn't send anybody to hell, they send themselves. That one at least preserves the threat of hellfire while making the god seem less monstrous, they hope. That one's pretty easy to dispatch with. I just tell them that in that case, I'm not going. Another one is that hell separation from God, not literal torture or even fire. That's pretty easy to answer as well for somebody living without this deity now and not finding that all too terrible. I think that if I awaken to an afterlife that I would prefer not to be in the company of such a deity.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
A good way is to scare them with threats of hellfire, especially if you can get to them young. Also, by teaching them that atheism is a character defect (scripture reveals that not one does good), or that atheists have no inner life, and that God really, really, REALLY dislikes unbelievers.

I would agree that the above methods are wrong and detrimental to the Gospel.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I used to be on some Christian message boards in the past, and every now and then, I would come across Christians who expressed absolute disdain for Jews, which struck me as odd given that Jesus was a Jew and the first Christians were Jews. But I have also come across other Christians who expressed their respect for Jews, and they usually talked about wanting to convert Jews to Christianity.
Yes, I totally get that. There are some denominations like Catholics who go out of their way to have good relations with Jews, and who stand against many of the antisemtic tropes like that Jews are responsible for Jesus' death or that the Church is Israel. Other denominations and individuals are utterly hostile to Jews.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matthew 25:46

I understand the bible OT paints the Abrahamic god as a really nasty piece of work. Which is part is of what lead me to atheiem.
The eternal punishment does not mean eternal torture while alive but dead. It means death with no possibility of a resurrection. Nothingness. Completely dead. The judgment is by God. The living can understand it, if they want to. The dead know nothing at all. I appreciate the scriptures you present but -- Matthew 10:28 refers to those who may die but they are remembered by God. And to destroy both soul and body means just that -- total destruction. Not eternal torment forever while a person is conscious in "hell."
Please notice what Ecclesiates. 9 says: "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun." In other words, the dead are not alive. They know nothing. They do not hear our prayers.
We KNOW we will die. The dead know nothing.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Humans bio life changed.

Half of living bio cell life chemistry eradicated by past science technology.

Water removed out of earths heavens to cool causes of stars sun attack.

Law vacuum void one way only.

Earth once was peaceful as reactive earth was going away cooling. Law one way.

Men knew heavens above once owned no gas alight. One way law was cooling evolving heavens.

Man introduced a non peaceful earth made it disastrous himself.

He yearns today by memory once we owned a humans peaceful earth life. I changed earths laws.

By use of all the science names not G O D above one status only.

Water owns a machine caused AI effect. Bio life unable to hold own the amount of heavens mass once supporting it.

Lives now are by two awarenesses. One natural bio life is sacrificed. We own a huge amount of origin biology destroyed. Cannot express it .....AI heavens water effect...not living ownership ours was already removed.

We yearn for it to be given back.

Technology won't allow it as reactive machine is the lie...what's never the machine itself caused its removal.

Men's reaction thesis now says I want the rest of biology living to only be the same AI past cause a single cell.

Death by AI human knows taught warnings.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
A humans life thinker confession.

I built machine.

I theory by my human presence how base radiated chemistry can convert it's mass to only support a single cell.

No life anywhere on earth. I'm exactly advised how. First I must bring above by machines causes the mass on our heavens side. Then convert it.

In my mind type inventor by destruction I am told exactly how to achieve it.

How to only own a machines AI heavens.

Outside of all space time laws.

Yet I already said life on earth biology is already out of all space time laws myself O 24 light cancelled by O 24 no light.

Void vacuum one way only law...earth not a sun.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matthew 25:46

I understand the bible OT paints the Abrahamic god as a really nasty piece of work. Which is part is of what lead me to atheiem.
Evolution has the theory that we die anyway. And that's life, so to speak. We're born, we live if we're fortunate, and then we die. As an atheist, you believe that death is -- nothingness, I suppose. That there is nothing after death. Basically that is what God told Adam & Eve -- that they would die. Not live. He didn't tell them they would burn forever in conscious torment.
And unfortunately many religions teach about a burning hellfire awaiting those who are not so-called saved. But this is not true. The fire described in the Bible is symbolic of eternal death, total destruction one might say of body AND soul, another subject to be discussed perhaps another time. Not eternal torture for those who may have sinned for several decades or so.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I understand your feelings. As a Jew, I get targeted all the time by Christians. I realize that it is just a part of their religion to want to share their gospel, but honestly, they aren't saying anything that I haven't heard a thousand times and am sick of.
As a Jew, may I ask what your religion teaches about death? In other words, what happens at death?
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
As a Jew, may I ask what your religion teaches about death? In other words, what happens at death?
You'll get different answers depending on what Jew you ask. Many Jews do not believe in any afterlife at all. Traditionally, Judaism has taught that when we die we go to Gehinnom, a temporary hell. This is why we pray for the dead for 11 months. Gehinnom purifies us for the resurrection, where we shall physically live in the world to come. There is also a teaching that the truly evil have their souls annihilated, leaving only the righteous to continue on. And finally, there is a teaching of transmigration of the soul, where it is thought that every Jewish soul will continue to reincarnate until it has kept every commandment.

I do not personally have an opinion on the subject. What happens after death is irrelevant to how I live my life. I think that if I follow God's ways, any afterlife will take care of itself. And if there is no afterlife, I have lived my life in a rich and meaningful way, so I have no regrets. Basically, I obey God because he is God, King of the Universe, and thus worthy of my obedience.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
The eternal punishment does not mean eternal torture while alive but dead. It means death with no possibility of a resurrection. Nothingness. Completely dead. The judgment is by God. The living can understand it, if they want to. The dead know nothing at all. I appreciate the scriptures you present but -- Matthew 10:28 refers to those who may die but they are remembered by God. And to destroy both soul and body means just that -- total destruction. Not eternal torment forever while a person is conscious in "hell."
Please notice what Ecclesiates. 9 says: "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun." In other words, the dead are not alive. They know nothing. They do not hear our prayers.
We KNOW we will die. The dead know nothing.

It is unknown whether a god (including your god) exists or is a figment of imagination. Any attributes given a god are down to the individual.

Same with soul the afterlife etc. You are welcome to your beliefs but they remain beliefs
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Evolution has the theory that we die anyway. And that's life, so to speak. We're born, we live if we're fortunate, and then we die. As an atheist, you believe that death is -- nothingness, I suppose. That there is nothing after death. Basically that is what God told Adam & Eve -- that they would die. Not live. He didn't tell them they would burn forever in conscious torment.
And unfortunately many religions teach about a burning hellfire awaiting those who are not so-called saved. But this is not true. The fire described in the Bible is symbolic of eternal death, total destruction one might say of body AND soul, another subject to be discussed perhaps another time. Not eternal torture for those who may have sinned for several decades or so.

And you are welcome to interpret the bible in whatever way you choose
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
With all due respect, I've heard that excuse before from other Christians, and I'm not buying it.

This "I wouldn't resort to hellfire with you, I would explore (my assumption) that you had religion, not relationship."

is not an excuse, it's a transactional reality, indeed, I've never, ever encountered a former Christian who claimed relationship, rather it's ALWAYS "I trusted this pastor, I followed the Bible" and NEVER "Jesus and I spent a lot of time together."

Jesus emphasized a relationship in the Bible, God with people as individuals seeking Him. That's biblical Christianity.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I would agree that the above methods are wrong and detrimental to the Gospel.

They're detrimental to people, too. But that wasn't the point. You asked, "How do you "coerce" someone into Christianity?" and I answered. Of course, coercion isn't the only tactic. Indoctrination (Sunday school), temptation with promises of pie in the sky, and steering people away from secular education have also been effective in keeping people in the fold.

The eternal punishment does not mean eternal torture while alive but dead. It means death with no possibility of a resurrection. Nothingness. Completely dead.

Yes, there's one of the new approaches to which I referred above. The problem here is that you've lost the stick of hell fire. What's the incentive to be a Christian even if you believe that this god exists and heaven is an option? Heaven isn't much of a carrot, and frankly, I'd take extinction at death over forced and inescapable immortality. Think about that for a moment - no way out.

The fire described in the Bible is symbolic of eternal death

I've gone a little further than you in taking liberties with what I will consider symbolic in the Bible and what refers to reality. The resurrection represents the death and rebirth of Greco-Roman culture following the collapse of Rome and leading to the Renaissance (French for rebirth) followed by the Age of Reason and the Enlightenment. God symbolizes man and his potential to shape and create his world.

Literalists don't allow that kind of freethinking, but those who decide which parts to take literally and which to call symbolic can make the religion into whatever they like, including humanism as I've just done. You've taken the first step by rejecting literal hell theology, and you did it the way a humanist does. You realize that eternal suffering for unbelief or disobedience is a grossly immoral concept, one that does serious damage to the claim that this god is loving, just, or merciful, and simply refuse to believe that a god would do that. You see that the only evidence for it is words, and don't feel obligated to believe them as written by faith like so many of your fellow believers.

But isn't that also the atheist's argument for unbelief? All we see are words and we reject them as written, the difference being that we don't share the theist's agenda of promoting this religion, and so reject not just those that damage the religion as it seems you are doing, but all of it that doesn't bear rational scrutiny. If you look at @Kenny 's comment above, that's also what's on his mind when he disavows certain teachings. If you look where I went with that freedom, you can tell that my agenda is separating justified belief from unjustified belief and avoiding the latter, not making the religion seem less off-putting to potential adherents.

I wouldn't resort to hellfire with you, I would explore (my assumption) that you had religion, not relationship.

Why would that be of interest to the non-Christian? Why would he or she want to explore that with you?

Jesus emphasized a relationship in the Bible, God with people as individuals seeking Him. That's biblical Christianity.

But you're dealing with a non-Christian, and often a former Christian, who no longer cares what the Bible says or what believers believe. They no longer believe that there is anything there to have a relationship with but the religion itself, and they don't want that. They also wonder what a relationship with somebody who's never there would look like. I understand that you believe that Jesus and God are there, but they're pretty quiet.
 
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