Another Mysticism thread

[+Xausted]

I am just interested in people personal thoughts on the validity of mysticism. Can they be evaluated, and if so/not so how/why?


(This is actually for an essay I am doing, so if anyone has any scholarly input that would be great, however I am just trying to gauge peoples personal opinions for my own interest)

 

[Storm]

I am just interested in people personal thoughts on the validity of mysticism. Can they be evaluated, and if so/not so how/why?


(This is actually for an essay I am doing, so if anyone has any scholarly input that would be great, however I am just trying to gauge peoples personal opinions for my own interest)

I'm assuming here you meant mystical experiences, correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes they can, but not in a practical way. Neuroimaging has given us a picture of such experiences. You could, theoretically, put everyone who claims to have them to the test that way.

Since that's rather impractical, we are left with comparing the reports to our own experiences. I think repetition is a pretty good indication of genuine mystical experience, and the person's overall mental helath needs to be taken into consideration.

 

[+Xausted]

I'm assuming here you meant mystical experiences, correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes they can, but not in a practical way. Neuroimaging has given us a picture of such experiences. You could, theoretically, put everyone who claims to have them to the test that way.

Since that's rather impractical, we are left with comparing the reports to our own experiences. I think repetition is a pretty good indication of genuine mystical experience, and the person's overall mental helath needs to be taken into consideration.

The problem with neroimaging though surely would mean that the mystical experience would have to occur while being monitored? That in itself raises too many validity problems.

The other problem with repitition is that this can invalidate someones experience if it is a single occurance.

Thankyou for replying though, your thoughts have given me something to chew over

 

[Storm]

The problem with neroimaging though surely would mean that the mystical experience would have to occur while being monitored? That in itself raises too many validity problems.

Howso?

The other problem with repitition is that this can invalidate someones experience if it is a single occurance.

Not necessarily. I've never been able to self-induce a trance state comparable to my initial theophany, but I have had success with milder experiences.

Theophany is when it happens spontaneously.

Thankyou for replying though, your thoughts have given me something to chew over

You're welcome.

 

[+Xausted]

Howso?

Not necessarily. I've never been able to self-induce a trance state comparable to my initial theophany, but I have had success with milder experiences.

Theophany is when it happens spontaneously.

You're welcome.

Trance like states can be reached through any form of meditation though. Do you think they are mystical experiences? (not saying they are not, just asking your thoughts on it)

 

[Storm]

They're what I mean by the phrase. Some people use it differently, though.

 

[sandandfoam]

I find the word mysticism quite a daunting one and it generates something of a tension in me. I think God is in the ordinary things of life and I believe I can experience this, but mysticism seems remote - the stuff of wiser, deeper more spiritual people.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I am just interested in people personal thoughts on the validity of mysticism. Can they be evaluated, and if so/not so how/why?


(This is actually for an essay I am doing, so if anyone has any scholarly input that would be great, however I am just trying to gauge peoples personal opinions for my own interest)

It is my understanding that it is possible to evaluate the validity of mysticism, but only directly, not indirectly.

IOW, one must attain a state of enlightenment of being one with the oneness to validate mysticism.

Indirect speculation and theorizing may be interesting, but ultimately remains a vanity.

Anyone who claims to have have experienced enlightenment is deceived, as it implies a duality of an experiencer and an experience. Enlightenment is when there is no one present to be enlightened for oneness is beyond duality.

"He who says does not know, one who knows does not say"...a Taoist saying

 

[zenzero]

friend xhausted,
Second friend ben_d's statement.
It only needs a state of NO-MIND to be enlightened and then there is no one to claim it as there was no perceiver left to perceive it or mysticism as you call it.
Rest are all speculation of the mIND.
Love & rgds

 

[soma]

Christian mysticism is not a new concept, but we must open up to it to make it effective so it can change our lives, making us aware that our bodies are in harmony with God, and His power is within. God flows through every atom of our being fortifying, energizing and renewing, but we are not aware of it. Embracing and identifying with this unity in Christian Mysticism, instead of our minds easily opens our being to the influx of new ideas, new thoughts, new people, and the new situations that come into our experience. I see everyone is a mystic, but some don't know it.

 

[Raymond Sigrist]

I am just interested in people personal thoughts on the validity of mysticism. Can they be evaluated, and if so/not so how/why?


(This is actually for an essay I am doing, so if anyone has any scholarly input that would be great, however I am just trying to gauge peoples personal opinions for my own interest)

If someone calls me stupid, my reaction is different than it was 20 years ago. My reaction and mood are much less affected by external events. I have become more "non-contingent". Typical terms for this phenomenon are "delivered," "released", and "liberated." In my opinion, it is also similar but not exactly identical to "moksha".

And so from my subjective view, my mystical practice has shown an operational validity. And nothing more than that. I don't claim that any of my characterizations of my "mystical" experiences are true to any objective reality.

Most mystics hold no doubt about the reality of the connection between their mystical experience and their religious beliefs. Other mystics like Zhuangzi base the very roots of their mysticism in not being sure of the ontological validity of almost any of their experience. They surrender to "not knowing." That works well for me. Zhuangzi: "Depend on what you don't know."

 

[zenzero]

Friend soma,

Though you have responded honestly am sure you can transcend the boundary of Christianity to find that mysticism is one across humanity.

Best Wishes.
Love & rgds

 

[YmirGF]

Most mystics hold no doubt about the reality of the connection between their mystical experience and their religious beliefs. Other mystics like Zhuangzi base the very roots of their mysticism in not being sure of the ontological validity of almost any of their experience. They surrender to "not knowing." That works well for me. Zhuangzi: "Depend on what you don't know."

Agreed. I used to think I knew much, but now I understand that I know nothing, although I do know nothing quite well. :yes:

 

[John D]

My experience -
Mysticism is like the gentle pull of a magnet. your spirit are pulled deeper into the power of the magnetic field. It can not be measured because there nothing to compare it with.The experience always stay new, because new pathways are found.
Mysticism cannot be induced -other spiritual expierences maybe - because it is a way of life, it influence you vision of people and situations and it influence your reaction to it.It is not some "title" that you can add to your name to sound spiritual, it is the way of the perpetual student, the disciple,the slave seeking truth.
Mysticism means nothing to the so-callled "mystic" but can be of some value to people listening to the words of the"mystic"
To be a mystic is to become lost on purpose.

 

[Raymond Sigrist]

"To be a mystic is to become lost on purpose."

well said John. Reminds me of Zhuangzi: "Don't spoil my crooked walk." I think he is saying: Don't ruin my path with purported coherency and clarity.

Also related is "The Cloud of Unknowing"

"Our intense need to understand will always be a powerful stumbling block to our attempts to reach God in simple love [...] and must always be overcome. For if you do not overcome this need to understand, it will undermine your quest. It will replace the darkness which you have pierced to reach God with clear images of something which, however good, however beautiful, however Godlike, is not God." (from Wiki)